Well, why don't we ask men to delay their career or education to raise the children while mom continues her education or advances her career?
H.
That's not very practical. Women are sometimes put on bedrest for long periods of time due to pregnancy complications and if they want to breastfeed for a significant amount of time, it's hard to keep up with the demands of pumping. Then there's the recovery period after delivery, the sleep deprivation, etc. That's the way nature designed the situation. It's easier for a husband to have stable employment.
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. ~ John 13:34
That's not very practical. Women are sometimes put on bedrest for long periods of time due to pregnancy complications and if they want to breastfeed for a significant amount of time, it's hard to keep up with the demands of pumping. Then there's the recovery period after delivery, the sleep deprivation, etc. That's the way nature designed the situation. It's easier for a husband to have stable employment.
Maternity leave seems to have this covered in most progressive countries. In Canada, parents are given 1 year of combined parental leave to divide as they see fit. Most times, the mother takes most of this leave.
H.
When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras --Dr. Theodore Woodward
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes. --Sir Isaac Newton
Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity --Father William of Ockham
Maternity leave seems to have this covered in most progressive countries. In Canada, parents are given 1 year of combined parental leave to divide as they see fit. Most times, the mother takes most of this leave.
H.
That's not the case here. It's very rare for men to have paternity leave. Women get about 3 months unpaid maternity leave. A friend was telling me she had to apply for temporary disability and companies aren't allowed to fire you over it. In my marriage, it made a lot more sense for my husband to progress in his career since I was ill during the majority of my 9 months of pregnancy. I can't even imagine going to work during that time. After my babies were born, I only got 1 or 2 hours of sleep at a time. I don't know how employed moms do it!
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. ~ John 13:34
That's not the case here. It's very rare for men to have paternity leave. Women get about 3 months unpaid maternity leave.
The law may have changed and i'm not aware (because i haven't really had to worry about this in a while), but when i was having my first, the law only required a company provide 6 weeks of materinty leave for a new mom.
It's crazy.
"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Maternity leave seems to have this covered in most progressive countries. In Canada, parents are given 1 year of combined parental leave to divide as they see fit. Most times, the mother takes most of this leave.
H.
Some women have really difficult pregnancies and can't work (or work full time). Maternity leave doesn't usually cover anything before the baby is born.
"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Some women have really difficult pregnancies and can't work (or work full time). Maternity leave doesn't usually cover anything before the baby is born.
In Canada you can start mat leave whenever you want.
But I think this misses the point. The point I'm making is that women can have career and family if they want. And neither has to suffer.
H.
When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras --Dr. Theodore Woodward
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes. --Sir Isaac Newton
Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity --Father William of Ockham
But I think this misses the point. The point I'm making is that women can have career and family if they want. And neither has to suffer.
That is a matter of opinion and in fact depends largely on the demands of the job and who is watching the baby (relative or day care). I do not recommend day care facilities to anyone. I've worked in them seen the results of babies brought up in them.
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Is economic backup the only reason a woman should pursue an education?
You need to read and understand my post. The last sentence should have answered your question.
I would rather deal with a hundred ravenous wolves than sully myself with one dishonest man. The wolves are honest, straightforward and you know what it is they want. The battle is hard fought but open and free. The dishonest man though, he is a thing, like Cain, that should be shunned, exiled.
"You will rise or fall to the kingdom within which you feel the greatest comfort."
"There are those who would define the family in such a nontraditional way that they would define the family out of existence."
President Spencer W. Kimball 1980
What I meant was, perhaps there is a part of cultural Mormonism that has not migrated north of 49.
H.
I know some Canadian members of the church, it appears you are skewing the position of Canadian saints/wives and mothers, who seem to understand the issue with significantly greater knowledge than you appear to. It gives you the image of trolling or blatant ignorance.
I would rather deal with a hundred ravenous wolves than sully myself with one dishonest man. The wolves are honest, straightforward and you know what it is they want. The battle is hard fought but open and free. The dishonest man though, he is a thing, like Cain, that should be shunned, exiled.
"You will rise or fall to the kingdom within which you feel the greatest comfort."
"There are those who would define the family in such a nontraditional way that they would define the family out of existence."
President Spencer W. Kimball 1980
Maternity leave seems to have this covered in most progressive countries. In Canada, parents are given 1 year of combined parental leave to divide as they see fit. Most times, the mother takes most of this leave.
H.
That isn't true, anyone who has children would certainly know better.
I would rather deal with a hundred ravenous wolves than sully myself with one dishonest man. The wolves are honest, straightforward and you know what it is they want. The battle is hard fought but open and free. The dishonest man though, he is a thing, like Cain, that should be shunned, exiled.
"You will rise or fall to the kingdom within which you feel the greatest comfort."
"There are those who would define the family in such a nontraditional way that they would define the family out of existence."
President Spencer W. Kimball 1980
There are many things that suffer and choices made for both the career and parenthood. To say one can do either with sacrificing something elsewhere is not always the case. For example, I traveled extensively while my wife remained at home. This necessitated me being away from the family, when we moved for company business to a foriegn land, the same occurred. Sacrifices were made. It is naive to believe opportunity costs, familial or otherwise do not occur. The question is whether or not those sacrifices are for the best. That is where the Lord's help comes into play, helping us as a family decide what is best.
I realize some reject the idea that such a thing exists. It is unfortunate, even as most here will bear witness that it does, while those who reject it do so because they cannot pull on that part of the Lord's gifts. Such is the dilemma for such posters.
I would rather deal with a hundred ravenous wolves than sully myself with one dishonest man. The wolves are honest, straightforward and you know what it is they want. The battle is hard fought but open and free. The dishonest man though, he is a thing, like Cain, that should be shunned, exiled.
"You will rise or fall to the kingdom within which you feel the greatest comfort."
"There are those who would define the family in such a nontraditional way that they would define the family out of existence."
President Spencer W. Kimball 1980
Well, why don't we ask men to delay their career or education to raise the children while mom continues her education or advances her career?
I'm a man, and I deferred completing my PhD for nearly two years whilst helping one of my former Young Men navigate his way through the legal system (all the way to the territorial supreme court) in order to avoid conviction on a false charge. (When he first came to me for help, it was his intention merely to plead guilty because he was convinced no one would believe his side of things due to his skin colour, and he was probably right. Thankfully, in the end we succeeded in getting the case dropped last year, and now he doesn't have to spend the next 15 years in gaol!)
No one knows this outside my bishop, but, if people did know, I'm confident a certain percentage of them would think I'm crazy. I'm OK with that, but I don't want to create a family with one of those people.
I know some Canadian members of the church, it appears you are skewing the position of Canadian saints/wives and mothers, who seem to understand the issue with significantly greater knowledge than you appear to. It gives you the image of trolling or blatant ignorance.
I was sharing my experience, just as you are. I can appreciate a difference in experiences, Jeff.
H.
When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras --Dr. Theodore Woodward
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes. --Sir Isaac Newton
Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity --Father William of Ockham
Maternity leave seems to have this covered in most progressive countries. In Canada, parents are given 1 year of combined parental leave to divide as they see fit. Most times, the mother takes most of this leave.
Jeff K., on 18 March 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:
That isn't true, anyone who has children would certainly know better.
What isn't true? That Canada has 1 year of parental leave? As a Canadian who has benefited from this parental leave, I can assure you I wasn't lying. Please refer to this website for more information: http://www.serviceca...yparental.shtml
H.
Edited by LDSToronto, 18 March 2012 - 08:33 PM.
When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras --Dr. Theodore Woodward
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes. --Sir Isaac Newton
Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity --Father William of Ockham
There are many things that suffer and choices made for both the career and parenthood. To say one can do either with sacrificing something elsewhere is not always the case. For example, I traveled extensively while my wife remained at home. This necessitated me being away from the family, when we moved for company business to a foriegn land, the same occurred. Sacrifices were made. It is naive to believe opportunity costs, familial or otherwise do not occur. The question is whether or not those sacrifices are for the best. That is where the Lord's help comes into play, helping us as a family decide what is best.
I realize some reject the idea that such a thing exists. It is unfortunate, even as most here will bear witness that it does, while those who reject it do so because they cannot pull on that part of the Lord's gifts. Such is the dilemma for such posters.
Jeff, the problem I see is that when people make sacrifices like you have, they feel everyone should make the same sacrifices. I have kids, all well-adjusted, all on the right path in their life. My wife got an advanced education and has worked every day of their lives, save the maternity leave she took. My family has never suffered; in fact, we have an economic advantage over pretty much every family in our (former) ward who did not do the same - we have no debt, we have almost paid our house, we are able to cover tuition, we have a great retirement setup, and because we've had money, we have had many advantages that our friends who made different choices don't have.
Now, you could argue that I am an apostate, so really, what matters. But I did not go inactive because my wife works; she did not go inactive because she works. And my family life is great.
The whole point here is that a one-size-fits-all commandment doesn't work for everyone.
H.
When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras --Dr. Theodore Woodward
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes. --Sir Isaac Newton
Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity --Father William of Ockham
I'm a man, and I deferred completing my PhD for nearly two years whilst helping one of my former Young Men navigate his way through the legal system (all the way to the territorial supreme court) in order to avoid conviction on a false charge. (When he first came to me for help, it was his intention merely to plead guilty because he was convinced no one would believe his side of things due to his skin colour, and he was probably right. Thankfully, in the end we succeeded in getting the case dropped last year, and now he doesn't have to spend the next 15 years in gaol!)
No one knows this outside my bishop, but, if people did know, I'm confident a certain percentage of them would think I'm crazy. I'm OK with that, but I don't want to create a family with one of those people.
You made a choice to help someone - that's awesome, and I'm sure that young man will thank you for the rest of his life.
H.
When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras --Dr. Theodore Woodward
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes. --Sir Isaac Newton
Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity --Father William of Ockham
Toronto, we know you to be anti Mormon, so when you ask questions you aren't looking for illumination so much as opportunity to complain about how horribly backward we Mormons are in regards to women. Such cheap wares don't peddle well here.
Your problem is that you presume what isn't there. No, I don't expect others to make the sacrifices I have made, or my family, or the sacrifices Hamba has made (which show an excellent depth of character on his part). But most of us recognize the trolling attitude when we see it. You are so wrapped up in your own bitterness that you seem to misread on a regular basis.
Quote
There are many things that suffer and choices made for both the career and parenthood. To say one can do either with sacrificing something elsewhere is not always the case. For example, I traveled extensively while my wife remained at home. This necessitated me being away from the family, when we moved for company business to a foriegn land, the same occurred. Sacrifices were made. It is naive to believe opportunity costs, familial or otherwise do not occur. The question is whether or not those sacrifices are for the best. That is where the Lord's help comes into play, helping us as a family decide what is best.
I realize some reject the idea that such a thing exists. It is unfortunate, even as most here will bear witness that it does, while those who reject it do so because they cannot pull on that part of the Lord's gifts. Such is the dilemma for such posters.
In effect, whether people stay at home or not, we rely or try to rely on the spirit to dictate our choices as a family. Your presumptions that we "only" seek education for women, with the implication that somehow by cultural tradition women are limited from exercising their agency to develop their talents reflects upon the trolling attitude. Relative to you (and your recent actions of dishonesty) I would say our lives are well adjusted, happy and with the normal ups and downs of marriage, but with a goal and understanding that goes beyond this life. You may or may not have known or believed in such things, if at one time you were a Latter-day Saint. But as I sit in my office at home, listening to the tunes of love being plunked on the piano downstairs, coming from my wife as our youngest comes from a fireside with her older brother, I can only marvel at how happy I am by the choices we made following the spirit. If you could touch upon that power you would indeed know differently and stop worrying about other people's choices.
I would rather deal with a hundred ravenous wolves than sully myself with one dishonest man. The wolves are honest, straightforward and you know what it is they want. The battle is hard fought but open and free. The dishonest man though, he is a thing, like Cain, that should be shunned, exiled.
"You will rise or fall to the kingdom within which you feel the greatest comfort."
"There are those who would define the family in such a nontraditional way that they would define the family out of existence."
President Spencer W. Kimball 1980
Toronto, we know you to be anti Mormon, so when you ask questions you aren't looking for illumination so much as opportunity to complain about how horribly backward we Mormons are in regards to women. Such cheap wares don't peddle well here.
I'm not an anti-Mormon, so you don't know me to be one. And you don't know why I am asking questions. You are assuming. And why the hate, Jeff? I'm sure you can muster up something better in your heart? If we were face-to-face, I'm sure you wouldn't speak to me this way, would you?
Quote
You are so wrapped up in your own bitterness that you seem to misread on a regular basis.
I am? Where do you find evidence of my bitterness?
Quote
In effect, whether people stay at home or not, we rely or try to rely on the spirit to dictate our choices as a family. Your presumptions that we "only" seek education for women, with the implication that somehow by cultural tradition women are limited from exercising their agency to develop their talents reflects upon the trolling attitude. Relative to you (and your recent actions of dishonesty) I would say our lives are well adjusted, happy and with the normal ups and downs of marriage, but with a goal and understanding that goes beyond this life. You may or may not have known or believed in such things, if at one time you were a Latter-day Saint. But as I sit in my office at home, listening to the tunes of love being plunked on the piano downstairs, coming from my wife as our youngest comes from a fireside with her older brother, I can only marvel at how happy I am by the choices we made following the spirit. If you could touch upon that power you would indeed know differently and stop worrying about other people's choices.
I'm really happy for you, Jeff, that you find joy in your family. I know that feeling just as well as you do. It's wonderful. But, concerning 'worrying about other people's choices', take a look at the OP for this thread, some 9 pages back. I didn't start the thread, which ultimately took turns concerning itself with the choices single men and single women make. In fact, I think I was the one who said that we should all just mind our business. Good LDS posters also mentioned women make choices, like education and career, that prevent them from making a good (LDS good) choice to date and marry.
So...
H.
When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras --Dr. Theodore Woodward
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes. --Sir Isaac Newton
Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity --Father William of Ockham
In Canada you can start mat leave whenever you want.
But I think this misses the point. The point I'm making is that women can have career and family if they want. And neither has to suffer.
H.
As Deborah has stated, that is an opinion that is pretty relative in scope. Growing up with a mother who worked but still put her family first, for example, i am of the opinion that children don't escape unscathed from the experience, even if the scars are minimal or seem to be a small price to pay for the advantages gained. Other kids who went home to an empty house after school might completely disagree.
So, i don't think any of us have missed your point. We are simply disagreeing with it on certain levels for specific reasons.
Edited by bluebell, 18 March 2012 - 09:23 PM.
"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Well, why don't we ask men to delay their career or education to raise the children while mom continues her education or advances her career?
H.
You are changing the argument, you said it was the end of their hopes and dreams, not the delay of them. That was what
i challenged. I completely agree that women are asked to typically make a much greater sacrifice in education and career than men. I also know a whole lot of men who have not progressed as far they desired in their education or career because of the sacrifices they've made for their family, but they were happy to do it.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
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LDSToronto, on 18 March 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:
