186 replies to this topic

[cinepro]

In the past few years, Church leaders have started being a little more vocal about the increase in unmarried LDS in their 20s.   Today's Wall Street Journal has a good overview of the trend in society in general that has led to this:

Where Have the Good Men Gone?

Quote

Relatively affluent, free of family responsibilities, and entertained by an array of media devoted to his every pleasure, the single young man can live in pig heaven—and often does. Women put up with him for a while, but then in fear and disgust either give up on any idea of a husband and kids or just go to a sperm bank and get the DNA without the troublesome man. But these rational choices on the part of women only serve to legitimize men's attachment to the sand box. Why should they grow up? No one needs them anyway. There's nothing they have to do.

While there are obviously cultural and doctrinal influences on LDS men that set them apart from their non-LDS single peers, they could share common influences that have led to this trend.

Other than pleading with these men from the pulpit, what more can the Church do?

Edited by cinepro, 16 March 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[BCSpace]

Speaking of money (affluency), the D-News had this article:

http://www.deseretne...l-behavior.html

And on a related note, they also ran these:

http://www.deseretne...ince-1950s.html

http://www.deseretne...s-marriage.html

Quote

Other than pleading with these men from the pulpit, what more can the Church do?

I have always believed that, unfortunate as it is, cultural expectations from behaviors to perception of beauty, make it almost impossible for some to marry because they can't find some who meets their expectations or they do not meet the expectations of most.  And maybe some of these things are inborn.  Perhaps there is a way to identify the problems earlier and train a youth to avoid these categories.

Edited by BCSpace, 16 March 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[LeSellers]

My observation is that it's no more likely that a young man is guilty of not wanting to marry tha for a young woman to refuse to accept his proposal.

The people I know who are in this position lament the fact that when they ask sisters out, the girls say, essentially, "Fine, but we can't become serious. I want to finish school" or some such excuse.

Further, when asked, most LDS girls, even at age 10 or 12, have decided they do not want any more than one or two children (sub replacement rate), and they do not change their minds.

I am glad to say that our seven families are 5, 7, 4, 7, (2)*, 2, and 2, (= 29) so far.

* We hope to hear today whether our son and daughter-in-law will be able to adopt both of the two brothers they'll be fostering starting Wednesday next week. Pray for them: Marc and Rainee, George (2½) and Bentley (1); George is the one they risk losing.

It's our daughters who have the seven children.

I have a hard time with people who refuse to obey the commandment to "multiply (not 'add') and replenish the Earth." But that's a reflection, I'm sure, on my lack of compassion.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers, 16 March 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[The Nehor]

cinepro, on 16 March 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

While there are obviously cultural and doctrinal influences on LDS men that set them apart from their non-LDS single peers, they could share common influences that have led to this trend.

As part of this LDS demographic, amen.

There are certain lessons that God seems to want taught in life and many of them are all but impossible to learn outside of marriage and parenthood. In many ways I'm much more mature then I was as a returned missionary. I have a steady income, responsible savings, a career, I volunteer, I'm involved with church and community projects and activities that I would have avoided when I was younger. I'm kinder, more generous, more educated, more spiritual, and more at peace then I was in my early 20's.

At the same time I am self-absorbed because I have no one else to be seriously absorbed with. I have a substantial amount of money with which to amuse myself and use it. Part of this is that I have at least as much if not more free time then I had in college. I'm a participating outsider in the church at best because of my status. This isn't deliberate exclusion by others or unkindness, it's just that I'm different. I watch most of my peers in this set drift out of the Church and am often tempted to join them.

Counsel from church leaders is mostly worthless in rectifying the situation. God doesn't seem to be in the business of telling me why I'm in this position. Girls tell me I shouldn't be in this position. I fall in love and show interest. Women fall in love with me and show interest me. Yet never the two shall meet.

So it just frustrates. I often feel like the older brother in the Prodigal Son story. I watch colossal spiritual screw-ups change and get everything I want. I'm not quite as bad as he is. I don't resent them for getting the fatted calf. I just resent that I haven't gotten the lamb to make merry with my friends. Add in that I'm told my eternal progression depends on this and the whole thing gets even more obnoxious.

And then I'm told to have faith as if that is some profound truth I've somehow missed in the last decade. I have faith. I just gave up all faith that God has a timetable I find even remotely satisfactory. Either that or God has other plans for me that require this status and will make it up to me later. If so I accept but there is no commandment that I have to pretend to like it.

[Saints Alive]

It's unfortunate but the sad fact is the church isn't set up for single people, Atleast not very well.

[The Nehor]

Saints Alive, on 16 March 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

It's unfortunate but the sad fact is the church isn't set up for single people, Atleast not very well.

And despite my complaints it probably shouldn't be. Most of the best Single Adult activities are unofficial.

[Duncan]

I am a single guy, I would LOVE to get married, simply put. I don't want to be single, I want at least another child. I am alone but not lonely. I was married while young , post mission, horrible experience and I have grown since then. I know a city where women my age are in plentiful supply but i can't live there, it's so expensive and I can't leave my son. So I can only do what I can and God knows where I live so hopefully maybe he moves my future hunnybunch here.

[DH]

cinepro, on 16 March 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Other than pleading with these men from the pulpit, what more can the Church do?

They could withhold temple recommends and sacrament privileges from men who remain single above a certain age. Mind you, I'm not saying that they should, just that they could.

Another question is why focus on the men? I know that in our culture, men are traditionally the ones who propose marriage, but does that mean it's God's will, or that women have no responsibility at all, and should just sit around waiting for a man to propose?

Edited by DH, 16 March 2012 - 03:54 PM.

[Gohan]

I concur with what the others have said, some of the burden/blame has to be taken off of the guys and placed on the girls as well.

I've heard a lot of girls here at BYU-I complain about never getting asked out, and then whenever they do get asked out, they turn the guy down. Speaking from an abundance of personal experience here. It doesn't make sense...

Edited by Gohan, 16 March 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[blackstrap]

Heard an interesting statement yesterday.   A woman marries a man thinking he will change(with her help) and he doesn't. A man marries a woman hoping that she will never change,but she does.

[Hamba Tuhan]

cinepro, on 16 March 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Other than pleading with these men from the pulpit, what more can the Church do?

For a slightly different take on how we got here:  http://www.nationalr.../suzanne-venker, http://www.nationalr.../suzanne-venker

Some quotes:

• 'In the span of just a few decades, women have managed to demote men from respected providers and protectors to being unnecessary, irrelevant, and downright expendable.'
  
• 'Moreover, women have made it clear they don’t need a man to support them, to be happy, or even to become a mother. The result is that men become slackers.'

This is less of a problem in the Church, I hope, but we're also not free from these attitudes based on my personal experiences.

Gohan, on 16 March 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

I've heard a lot of girls here at BYU-I complain about never getting asked out, and then whenever they do get asked out, they turn the guy down.

I previously shared an experience I had here last year at a YSA fireside on marriage and family.  During the Q&A session with a panel, one of the sisters stood up and asked, essentially, 'What is wrong with men?  Why don't they show us more attention?'  These questions elicited the stock answer:  men need to 'man up' and take some initiative.

At the end of the panel discussion, the final 'question' came from a brother, a recently returned missionary, who pointed out that he would be happy to take out any sister in the chapel, on a day and time of her own choosing.  'Who's interested?' he asked.  Dead silence.  The stake presidency member who was moderating the panel and also conducting the fireside said, 'Ladies, here's your chance.'  Not one of them--not even the original complainant--moved.  <sigh>

Edited by Hamba Tuhan, 16 March 2012 - 04:45 PM.

[The Nehor]

DH, on 16 March 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

They could withhold temple recommends and sacrament privileges from men who remain single above a certain age. Mind you, I'm not saying that they should, just that they could.

They already kicked me out of being a Temple worker. Why not?

Hamba Tuhan, on 16 March 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

I previously shared an experience I had here last year at a YSA fireside on marriage and family.  During the Q&A session with a panel, one of the sisters stood up and asked, essentially, 'What is wrong with men?  Why don't they show us more attention?'  These questions elicited the stock answer:  men need to 'man up' and take some initiative.

At the end of the panel discussion, the final 'question' came from a brother, a recently returned missionary, who pointed out that he would be happy to take out any sister in the chapel, on a day and time of her own choosing.  'Who's interested?' he asked.  Dead silence.  The stake presidency member who was moderating the panel and also conducting the fireside said, 'Ladies, here's your chance.'  Not one of them--not even the original complainant--moved.  <sigh>

To be fair that is just about the worst way to ask someone out. When I ask a girl out (barring her being crazy) there are two responses:

1. Flattered but not interested.
2. Interested and say yes.

The same thing happens when a girl asks me out.

The guy in your example basically said I am willing to date anyone here. I have no standards other then that. Any girl who accepted would most likely take a blow to the ego.

[Duncan]

The Nehor, on 16 March 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

They already kicked me out of being a Temple worker. Why not?



To be fair that is just about the worst way to ask someone out. When I ask a girl out (barring her being crazy) there are two responses:

1. Flattered but not interested.
2. Interested and say yes.

The same thing happens when a girl asks me out.

The guy in your example basically said I am willing to date anyone here. I have no standards other then that. Any girl who accepted would most likely take a blow to the ego.

dating, oh my word. I hate when you're on a date and your date is checking someone else out IT"S SO ANNOYING! Like in my case, I am like "um, why is that lady staring at me? isn't she with that guy?"!

[The Nehor]

On the subject of love:

[Gohan]

And on a fun side note, my date cancelled for tonight. Here's hoping for a re-schedule that'll go through...

[Duncan]

Gohan, on 16 March 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

And on a fun side note, my date cancelled for tonight. Here's hoping for a re-schedule that'll go through...

things that kills me repeatedly, there are 3 women I would crawl on my hands and knees over broken glass from Vancouver to Virginia to date, 2 aren't dating and 1 is dating kinda but he treats her badly, none live here though...they used to....alas!

Edited by Duncan, 16 March 2012 - 06:39 PM.

[Hamba Tuhan]

The Nehor, on 16 March 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

To be fair that is just about the worst way to ask someone out.

You have a point.  At the same time, it did demonstrate something.  In talking to the guy later, he told me that every LDS woman he'd asked out since returning from his mission had turned him down, including that night's complainant, and he was tired of their getting away with it whilst casting aspersions on the men.  Another bloke who joined in the conversation later personally asked out three women who'd been at the fireside and reported that he got three rejections.  I honestly don't know what these women want, but it isn't for good men to ask them out on dates.  Maybe they're interested in just certain guys?  Maybe they want something other than dates?  I honestly don't know, but I for one am tired of men copping all the blame by default.

I personally asked out a single mum in our stake a few months ago.  I thought we had a lovely evening, and she said she'd enjoyed herself.  The next day, I sent her a message and then rang her.  No response.  I tried again several times on Sunday.  No answer/response.  I knew she was shifting house the following week, so I messaged her on Monday to ask if I could drop 'round to help pack up or even just move cartons.  Her terse response:  She was quite capable of doing all that herself.  I then asked if I could help on the day.  She said she didn't need help loading the van but, IF I wanted to, I could help her unload at a certain time.  I arrived at that time, and she'd already unloaded everything and left.  My emails, messages and phone calls the following week all went unacknowledged.

I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but, after two weeks, I finally figured out she didn't want me around.  And I'm OK with that.  My only problem is that she's told several mutual friends in the stake that I've ignored her, suggesting to two very close friends that I'm just too self-absorbed.  Only last night, one of my surrogate mothers in the ward told me at sports night that, when she'd asked this woman if we were going to go out again, the woman said that she sincerely hoped so but that I didn't seem interested.

Poor women.  If only they could find some nice guys who would man up.  <sigh>

Edited by Hamba Tuhan, 16 March 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[cinepro]

Hamba Tuhan, on 16 March 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

I previously shared an experience I had here last year at a YSA fireside on marriage and family.  During the Q&A session with a panel, one of the sisters stood up and asked, essentially, 'What is wrong with men?  Why don't they show us more attention?'  These questions elicited the stock answer:  men need to 'man up' and take some initiative.

At the end of the panel discussion, the final 'question' came from a brother, a recently returned missionary, who pointed out that he would be happy to take out any sister in the chapel, on a day and time of her own choosing.  'Who's interested?' he asked.  Dead silence.  The stake presidency member who was moderating the panel and also conducting the fireside said, 'Ladies, here's your chance.'  Not one of them--not even the original complainant--moved.  <sigh>

That's a great story.  But when I tell it, I'm going to have it end with a sister volunteering as if to call his bluff, and then they go out and end up getting married.  

[cinepro]

Duncan, on 16 March 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

things that kills me repeatedly, there are 3 women I would crawl on my hands and knees over broken glass from Vancouver to Virginia to date, 2 aren't dating and 1 is dating kinda but he treats her badly, kind of frustrating!

My advice: get a new suit, lose the mustache, and don't wear a hat.

[Duncan]

cinepro, on 16 March 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

My advice: get a new suit, lose the mustache, and don't wear a hat.

haw haw! I have vast amounts of wealth and prestige and my name and image is iconic

Edited by Duncan, 16 March 2012 - 06:45 PM.