119 replies to this topic

[Grundelwalken]

altersteve, on 13 March 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

being very rude.

When I read this I started to chuckle.  But then I realized that my eyes had failed me again.  I thought I saw nude but ......... I was wrong.  Age matters, especially in the eyes and ears.  Sorry. MW

[zerinus]

zerinus, on 13 March 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

If you expect people to respect you show them the same courtesy.  This post is nothing but board nannying and personal in its own right.  Your continued insistance that your interpretation is the only correct interpretation is turning off many posters.  -Ares

Thank you, but I am not really sure what you are suggesting that I should do. Are you suggesting that I should just agree with other people's interpretations for the sake of agreeing, against my own better judgement?

[altersteve]

Quote

Don't get personal.  If you take out the orange highlighted portions your post is fine. - Ares

Done. I apologize.

[Ares]

zerinus, on 13 March 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Thank you, but I am not really sure what you are suggesting that I should do. Are you suggesting that I should just agree with other people's interpretations for the sake of agreeing, against my own better judgement?

You should not present opinion as church doctrine or the only possible interpretation and then callinto question others faith or intelligence when they disagree.   You are excused from this thread.

[Bernard Gui]

Mr  Bowman, the Book of Mormon says nothing about North and South America. It nevers uses the word continent. There is no indication the Lehites were aware of the vast areas beyond their own homelands. Please provide a scripture quote that supports your claim.

Bernard

[Rob Bowman]

Steve,

Let's restore the context of my remark about prophets and the last words. Cinepro had asked:

Quote

So if someone were looking for the "last word on Mormonism", should they go to the Church website, or an apologetics website?

KevinG had replied:

Quote

God.

KevinG's reply makes no sense if even the Prophet of the Restoration could not go to God for the "last word" on Mormonism. So when you say:

altersteve, on 13 March 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

That's pretty much the idea behind continuing revelation.

You are jumping into the middle of a discussion and not getting the point. KevinG says if we go to God we can get the last word on something. But the evidence shows this isn't true, at least not in the case of the Mormon prophets, who went to God and got something other than the last word.

Get it?

[Rob Bowman]

Mr. Gui,

You wrote:

Bernard Gui, on 13 March 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Mr  Bowman, the Book of Mormon says nothing about North and South America. It nevers uses the word continent. There is no indication the Lehites were aware of the vast areas beyond their own homelands. Please provide a scripture quote that supports your claim.

Mr. Gui, the Book of Mormon says nothing about America. It never uses the word America. Does this mean that the Book of Mormon says nothing that modern readers cannot properly understand to be about America?

[thesometimesaint]

Rob Bowman:

If you want what the Church teaches about its own doctrines/beliefs the best(only) place to go is the Church.

IE; Ask me what I believe I'll tell you in no uncertain words. If you want what the Church believes go to the Church.

[Rob Bowman]

thesometimesaint,

You wrote:

thesometimesaint, on 14 March 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

If you want what the Church teaches about its own doctrines/beliefs the best(only) place to go is the Church.

IE; Ask me what I believe I'll tell you in no uncertain words. If you want what the Church believes go to the Church.

That's exactly what I do. I go to the Church to find out what it teaches.

[Valentinus]

Rob Bowman, on 13 March 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

KevinG,

You wrote:



Okay, but you should already know this. Here are two examples that should be sufficient to document that what i said accurately represents a popular, traditional LDS view.

"The book which I hold in my hand (the Book of Mormon) contains nearly as much information as the Old Testament. It is a book of five or six hundred closely printed pages. This book, the Latter-day Saints believe to be the Bible of the western hemisphere; a compilation of sacred books, books delivered by divine inspiration in ancient times to prophets, revelators and inspired men who dwelt upon this continent, both in North and South America." Orson Pratt, JD 14:326. (Continue reading for several pages and you'll find that Pratt elaborates on this claim in some detail.)

"Who are the Lamanites? The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people. There are no blessings, of all the imaginable ones, to which you are not entitled -- you, the Lamanites -- when you are righteous. You are of royal blood, the children of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Lehi. Lamanites share a royal heritage. I should like to address my remarks to you, our kinsmen of the isles of the sea and the Americas. Millions of you have blood relatively unmixed with gentile nations. Columbus called you "Indians," thinking he had reached the East Indies. Millions of you are descendants of Spaniards and Indians, and are termed mestizos, and are called after your countries, for instance: Mexicans in Mexico; Guatemalans in Guatemala; Chilianos in Chile. You Polynesians of the Pacific are called Samoan or Maori, Tahitian or Hawaiian, according to your islands. There are probably sixty million of you on the two continents and on the Pacific Islands, all related by blood ties. The Lord calls you Lamanites, a name which has a pleasant ring, for many of the grandest people ever to live upon the earth were so called." The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 596-97.

Come on Rob! We all know that those statements may or may not be inspired. It gives us the benefit of the doubt. We also know that not everything the prophets and apostles teach or say is true.

[Rob Bowman]

Valentinus,

You wrote:

Valentinus, on 14 March 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Come on Rob! We all know that those statements may or may not be inspired. It gives us the benefit of the doubt. We also know that not everything the prophets and apostles teach or say is true.

Right. Something about plausible deniability....

[Valentinus]

Rob Bowman, on 14 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Valentinus,

You wrote:



Right. Something about plausible deniability....

You like that, huh?

Knock it off.  Contribute something beyond inflammatory one-liners or leave the thread.

Edited by Minos, 14 March 2012 - 02:14 PM.

[KevinG]

Rob Bowman, on 14 March 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Steve,

Let's restore the context of my remark about prophets and the last words. Cinepro had asked:




KevinG had replied:



KevinG's reply makes no sense if even the Prophet of the Restoration could not go to God for the "last word" on Mormonism. So when you say:



You are jumping into the middle of a discussion and not getting the point. KevinG says if we go to God we can get the last word on something. But the evidence shows this isn't true, at least not in the case of the Mormon prophets, who went to God and got something other than the last word.

Get it?

We can receive revelation and so can the Prophet but it is line by line, precept by precept.  I do not know exactly why Father has set it up this way but I suspect it is part of our capacity to grow and know + part of our mortal test.  We see through a glass but darkly.

[KevinG]

Rob Bowman, on 14 March 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

thesometimesaint,

You wrote:



That's exactly what I do. I go to the Church to find out what it teaches.

When was the last time you went to an LDS service or observed one of our Sunday School classes.  Picking through our literature is not going to our church.  You have serious gaps in your knowledge of how we apply and understand our doctrines.  Your cyncial comments regarding our Prophets not geting it right from God is a prime example.

At this point I don't know if the ignorance is willing or accidental - but it is obvious.

Some of this can be forgiven as even Latter-day Saints sometimes confuse "all knowledge" with "all knowledge that God has revealed to us".  But as a professed Scholar with knowledge of Mormonism you should know better.

Edited by KevinG, 14 March 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[cdowis]

Rob Bowman, on 13 March 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

I am aware of the fact that Mormon scholars and apologists in the BYU/Maxwell/FAIR tradition dispute this claim. In the article you quote, I discuss their view that the people of the three Middle Eastern migrations mixed with larger populations already in the Americas. So I didn't "miss" this. The question is disputed even among faithful Mormons. I cannot reasonably be faulted for stating a position shared by many faithful Mormons, especially if I also mention the alternative position.

Members disagree on how to interpret the BOM on this matter.  It is not a doctrinal issue, but a matter for research and careful study of the BOM text itself.  To pretend that the BOM unequivocally limits itself to the three migrations is not based on the BOM text itself.

[Bernard Gui]

Rob Bowman, on 14 March 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

Mr. Gui, the Book of Mormon says nothing about America. It never uses the word America. Does this mean that the Book of Mormon says nothing that modern readers cannot properly understand to be about America?

Perhaps modern readers assume things that are not in the book.

Then you should modify your false statements accordingly. I'm waiting for you to provide proof that the BoM talks about populating continents.

Bernard

[Rob Bowman]

Bernard,

You wrote:

Bernard Gui, on 14 March 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Perhaps modern readers assume things that are not in the book.

There are no other readers of the book to consult.

You wrote:

Quote

Then you should modify your false statements accordingly. I'm waiting for you to provide proof that the BoM talks about populating continents.

That my statements are "false" is not fact, but only your opinion. I won't ask you to provide proof that they are false, and I am not going to try to provide proof that they are true. I am not going to get dragged into a debate over this question in a hostile environment when Mormons don't even agree among themselves about it. In my article, I expressed the same opinion as leading Mormon prophets have expressed as to the meaning of the Book of Mormon population(s) and acknowledged that many Mormons now hold a different opinion. Demanding that I prove to your satisfaction that the opinion I expressed is correct in order for me to retain the statement in my article will get you nowhere.

[thesometimesaint]

Rob Bowman:

Nowhere is the BoM are continents mentioned. Nowhere in the BoM is America mentioned. There is nothing in the BoM that declares that there were only three migrations to the New World. If you are unwilling to use what the Church says about its own Scriptures, then it is you that is being dishonest.

[JDave]

Rob Bowman, on 14 March 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

In my article, I expressed the same opinion as leading Mormon prophets have expressed as to the meaning of the Book of Mormon population(s) and acknowledged that many Mormons now hold a different opinion.

As I said earlier, I don't really have a big issue with the statement under question in this topic.  The sentiment of your statement was and perhaps is still quite prevalent in LDS tradition.

You often make a special point in your literature of pointing out where Book of Mormon teachings supposedly differ from Church teachings.  So when you make a statement such as "The Book of Mormon teaches ... " or "According to the Book of Mormon", you commonly do this to highlight textual evidence (of varying degrees of strength and germaneness) from the Book of Mormon.  In this particular case you say "according to the Book of Mormon" but then you say that you are just agreeing with previous LDS leaders opinions.  All the quotes that I have seen from LDS leaders don't assert that the Book of Mormon "teaches" that the land was populated by three migrations.  They simply state their opinion that the land was populated by three migrations and that the Book of Mormon speaks of those populations.

So while I don't think you are far off with your statement, it would be better stated as "According to LDS tradition" rather than "According to the Book of Mormon".  Your normal use of phrases such as "according to the Book of Mormon", not to mention a straight forward reading of the phrase, cause your readers to assume that there is textual evidence in the Book of Mormon which simply isn't there.

[Rob Bowman]

thesometimesaint,

You wrote:

thesometimesaint, on 14 March 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Nowhere is the BoM are continents mentioned. Nowhere in the BoM is America mentioned. There is nothing in the BoM that declares that there were only three migrations to the New World. If you are unwilling to use what the Church says about its own Scriptures, then it is you that is being dishonest.

Did you actually read my article in its entirety before posting the above comment?