14 replies to this topic

[inquiringmind]

I went to sacrament meeting yesterday, and I had a meeting with my bishop that made me feel much better, but I have a question.

Why did I have to ask him questions instead of getting the answers myself?

Why can't I be more hopeful, feel more certain on my own?

And what (if anything) might my health have to do with it?

Can your health keep you from feeling the Spirit?

Can doubt, or fear?

This is from a thread on depression, on another LDS forum.

Quote

gonefishing
11-15-2010, 12:57 AM
I have never struggled with this illness but someone close to us is really struggling with it right now. He has always loved his family and serving in the church. The last few weeks he has stopped going to church because it's too hard for him to go and be around people. He has also stopped writing to his son on a mission. This is not his normal self. He is seeing a doctor but nothing has helped yet. He is also having a very difficult time sleeping. I am having a hard time phrasing my question. I am not trying to oversimplify this illness but it seems to me that it is really affecting his ability to have the spirit and do what he should (like going to church and other family duties.) It just doesn't make sense to me. How does depression affect your spirituality? It seems to be really hurting him in that respect but then I think that is not right because it is an illness. Help me understand please.

Ca we all feel The Spirit, and get direct answers to our questions, or can one's physical (or mental, or emotional) health get in the way?

And if your health does get in the way, are you accountable?

Is it always your fault if you can't feel The Spirit?

Edited by inquiringmind, 12 March 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[Kevin Christensen]

Going to a source that knows the answer is getting the answer for yourself.  If your bishop knows the answer, and you ask, so much the better.  But omniscience is not a requirement for the calling.  They do the best they can based on what they know.

One of my friends suffered from depression for years, and suffered additionally from the poor advice he was given by people who thought he should make it a matter of prayer and duty.  While he was praying for help, his wife researched and sought out information and expert advise that led to him getting Prosac, which helped lift his depression.  She pointed out that her efforts turned out to an answer to his prayers.

Alma 32 makes a valuable distinction between those who want to know for everything for certain, and those willing to settle for "cause to believe."  Alma himself seems to prefer settling for "cause to believe" which emphatically involves NOT knowing with final certainty, but just having enough "cause to believe" to support faith and hope, which finds further "cause to believe" as the experiment continues, enlightenment and understanding continues, and further growth and fruit promised.  The kind of certainty that many people crave also comes with an accountability that no one wants.  Any mistakes or lapses in the face of absolute certainty will naturally be judged in light of that knowledge.

Health can have a great deal to do with our experience of life.  Depression, by nature, filters and colors human experience.  And I've known people who have suffered chronic debilitating pain (migraines, for example), and that certainly affects their capacity and ability.

Doubt and fear can affect faith because doubt and fear affect the actions that a person takes, the information they seek, the sources they depend on, or not, and the weight they give to knowledge and experience that they have.

I'm personally reassured by my personal conviction that God does not hold people accountable to the extent that their opportunities and faculties are impaired, and that imbalances will be addressed and redressed in this life, and the life to come.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA

Edited by Kevin Christensen, 12 March 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[thesometimesaint]

1. It helps people feel better to talk it over with someone they trust.

2. We're just not all that good at it.

3. Physical or mental? Proper exercise, diet, and wise counsel can do wonders for both. Sometimes we all need help.

4. Yes. Doubt not fear not the Lord is with you. It also helps to have a trusted partner to help carry the load.

5. Yes. But it helps to have friends along the way.

6. You are always accountable to the level of your responsibility. Mental and physical illness of course effect that responsibility.

7. No. But you are responsible for the Spirit you do feel.

[inquiringmind]

Kevin Christensen, on 12 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Going to a source that knows the answer is getting the answer for yourself. If your bishop knows the answer, and you ask, so much the better. But omniscience is not a requirement for the calling. They do the best they can based on what they know.

I was told that they receive personal revelation for everyone (LDS and non LDS) within their ward.

Isn't that true?

Edited by inquiringmind, 12 March 2012 - 12:07 PM.

[JDave]

A quick link to Myths about Mental Illnesswould be helpful upfront.

Christ himself cried out when he couldn't feel the Spirit.  "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"   Obviously we don't say that Jesus was at fault there.

[thesometimesaint]

inquiringmind:

They CAN, but you still have to ask first.

[inquiringmind]

thesometimesaint, on 12 March 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

inquiringmind:

They CAN, but you still have to ask first.

Who has to ask first (you or the Bishop)?

[LeSellers]

We're all different. It's impossible to "diagnose" anyone's condition, spiritual or physical, from afar, at least for me. I hope you asked your bishop these questions. If not, maybe you should.

inquiringmind, on 12 March 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Why did I have to ask [my bishop] questions instead of getting the answers myself?

You can, and you will. But it often takes experience to recognize the answers.

inquiringmind said:

Why can't I be more hopeful, feel more certain on my own?

Inexperience is probably the biggest obstacle. Joseph Smith said that it's by acting on the small things (when the situation is not so tense), and understanding that the Holy Ghost is speaking to you that you can learn how to respond to those promptings and responses He gives you.

The key is Moroni 10:4~5: "with real intent". Limhi's father prayed "I will give away all my sins to know thee". That's real intent. Many people never make that commitment, and many people do not reap the reward of their prayers. It's like an airplane that spends all its time and fuel climbing an descending, climbing and descending, never getting to altitude and cruising: a lot of effort, and not nearly the desired result.

inquiringmind said:

And what (if anything) might my health have to do with it?
Can your health keep you from feeling the Spirit?

You are not a spirit and a body, You are a spirit'nbody: a soul. Your physical condition has significant effects over how well your spirit can deal with revelations you would normally receive. Any illness can interfere. On the other hand, I know people who have never felt the spirit when they are fully well because they obsess with their physical condition and are, I believe, too proud to acknowledge His presence. Only when they are feeling poorly and have lost their pride, can they begin to understand the workings of the spirit. For some of these folks, fasting, deliberately denying the "needs" of the body, is the only way they even approach a spiritual plane.

inquiringmind said:

Can doubt, or fear?

Oh, yes. These are tools Satan can (and does) use against us.

What we see is what we focus on:
There was a motivational speaker who took a large piece of paper and fastened it on the wall behind the podium. Using an ordinary marker, he put a black dot in the center of the paper and asked the attendees, "What do you see?" They all answered, "A black dot!"

He retorted, "I see a large sheet of white paper."

Faith (the polar opposite of doubt and fear) is the critical element. Focus on your faith, even if you don't have complete confidence in it yet, and miracles will happen. Limhi's father prayed,."O, God, if there is a God, and if thou are God ... ." That's the level of faith we all start with. And that's where Father will meet you where you are: not "half-way", He'll meet you 99.999% of the way if all you can manage that is first step. The next time, it'll be 99.9%, and the next 97% ... .

inquiringmind said:

Ca we all feel The Spirit, and get direct answers to our questions, or can one's physical (or mental, or emotional) health get in the way?

Having and felling the spirit is a fragile thing. Any of those (and others, too) may interfere with the reception of the knowledge we seek. Counter-intuitively, the more important the information, the harder it becomes to receive it. For the really important choices in life, it may take many attempts, and it may be the most difficult to achieve. As Jesus said: "This kind cometh not out but by fasting and prayer."

inquiringmind said:

And if your health does get in the way, are you accountable?

I can't see how it would be unless you have purposefully degraded your health (as with drugs like alcohol or nicotine, etc.).

inquiringmind said:

Is it always your fault if you can't feel The Spirit?

"Always" usually means the proposition is false.

I believe that there are times when others may be responsible for driving the Holy Ghost (and His spirit) away. However, this is probably not too frequent, and I'd be wary lest it become a crutch or an excuse.

In nearly all cases one can flee the scene if that is the last resort. Or, as in the case of Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove, calling upon God all the more pointedly may be sufficient to reject an evil situation and summon the powers of heaven to your aid.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

If I want to speak to my Bishop in his role as Bishop I first make an appointment through the Executive Secretary. If a non memeber wants to talk to him in his role of Bishop they follow the same rule.

[inquiringmind]

LeSellers, on 12 March 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

We're all different. It's impossible to "diagnose" anyone's condition, spiritual or physical, from afar, at least for me. I hope you asked your bishop these questions. If not, maybe you should.


You can, and you will. But it often takes experience to recognize the answers.


Inexperience is probably the biggest obstacle. Joseph Smith said that it's by acting on the small things (when the situation is not so tense), and understanding that the Holy Ghost is speaking to you that you can learn how to respond to those promptings and responses He gives you.

The key is Moroni 10:4~5: "with real intent". Limhi's father prayed "I will give away all my sins to know thee". That's real intent. Many people never make that commitment, and many people do not reap the reward of their prayers. It's like an airplane that spends all its time and fuel climbing an descending, climbing and descending, never getting to altitude and cruising: a lot of effort, and not nearly the desired result.


You are not a spirit and a body, You are a spirit'nbody: a soul. Your physical condition has significant effects over how well your spirit can deal with revelations you would normally receive. Any illness can interfere. On the other hand, I know people who have never felt the spirit when they are fully well because they obsess with their physical condition and are, I believe, too proud to acknowledge His presence. Only when they are feeling poorly and have lost their pride, can they begin to understand the workings of the spirit. For some of these folks, fasting, deliberately denying the "needs" of the body, is the only way they even approach a spiritual plane.


Oh, yes. These are tools Satan can (and does) use against us.

What we see is what we focus on:
There was a motivational speaker who took a large piece of paper and fastened it on the wall behind the podium. Using an ordinary marker, he put a black dot in the center of the paper and asked the attendees, "What do you see?" They all answered, "A black dot!"

He retorted, "I see a large sheet of white paper."

Faith (the polar opposite of doubt and fear) is the critical element. Focus on your faith, even if you don't have complete confidence in it yet, and miracles will happen. Limhi's father prayed,."O, God, if there is a God, and if thou are God ... ." That's the level of faith we all start with. And that's where Father will meet you where you are: not "half-way", He'll meet you 99.999% of the way if all you can manage that is first step. The next time, it'll be 99.9%, and the next 97% ... .


Having and felling the spirit is a fragile thing. Any of those (and others, too) may interfere with the reception of the knowledge we seek. Counter-intuitively, the more important the information, the harder it becomes to receive it. For the really important choices in life, it may take many attempts, and it may be the most difficult to achieve. As Jesus said: "This kind cometh not out but by fasting and prayer."


I can't see how it would be unless you have purposefully degraded your health (as with drugs like alcohol or nicotine, etc.).


"Always" usually means the proposition is false.

I believe that there are times when others may be responsible for driving the Holy Ghost (and His spirit) away. However, this is probably not too frequent, and I'd be wary lest it become a crutch or an excuse.

In nearly all cases one can flee the scene if that is the last resort. Or, as in the case of Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove, calling upon God all the more pointedly may be sufficient to reject an evil situation and summon the powers of heaven to your aid.

Lehi

Thank you Brother Lehi.

Thank you very much.

[LeSellers]

inquiringmind, on 12 March 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

I was told that they receive personal revelation for everyone (LDS and non LDS) within their ward.

Isn't that true?

Yes, it is.

But he cannot be the only recipient—each of us must start to carry our own burdens. However, it is his stewardship to help as when we stumble or tire.

I sensed a bit of frustration with your "lack" of progress in recognizing revelation. Don't be too worried about it now. Over time, you'll be more accustomed to it.

I believe that the reason mayn people claim they do not "have a testimony anymore" is because they've simply gotten too used to it, they don't respond as they did earlier on. And, when that happens, the Holy Ghost gradually withdraws, little by little they have no more spiritual support, and they assume it's always been like that. This is untrue.

When our sons returned from their missions (I'd say the same thing about myself, but it was too long ago), they complained that they no longer felt the spirit as they did when serving. this sudden withdrawal was noticeable and shocking to them. They were reacting to the sudden change in their status as full-time servants of God. They no longer had the protection their missions had afforded them, and they were bounced back into the cold and dreary world. Not alone, but not the same as it had been the day or week before, either.

A more gradual withdrawal, as I said, would be harder to distinguish, and harder, therefore, to defend against.

Lehi

[inquiringmind]

thesometimesaint, on 12 March 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

If I want to speak to my Bishop in his role as Bishop I first make an appointment through the Executive Secretary. If a non memeber wants to talk to him in his role of Bishop they follow the same rule.

But most of that appointment making seems to be done immediately after sacrament meeting, and doesn't seem to leave the bishop much time to inquire of the Lord.

Are you saying that I should have made my appointment a week in advance, and given the Bishop some advance notice of what I was gonna ask (so he could ask God)?

[JDave]

I personally know people who struggle, quite painfully, with exactly what you are describing.  Yes, mental illness can affect your ability to feel the Spirit.  The oft-repeated refrain of "Read your scriptures and say your prayers" as the cure-all for being able to feel the spirit sounds trite and hollow to those who try and try and try and fail and fail and fail.  The next solution to feeling the spirit is to repent, and while that is so often helpful advice, how painful is that message to the humble, contrite saint petitioning God daily to just be able to feel a portion of His love and Spirit?

While the standard answers work for most, it is always best to consider your own personal case.  Don't excuse yourself, but don't beat yourself up.  As Elder Oaks said a while back, "We address a diverse audience each time we speak, and we are never free from the reality that a doctrinal underdose for some is an overdose for others."

[LeSellers]

inquiringmind, on 12 March 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

Thank you very much.

You are most welcome.

Lehi

[Duncan]

The BEST advice I ever got from my Bishop once was to see someone about divorce and the imminent depression which knocked me senseless let me tellya, he simply said that he wasn't a counselor but he knew someone who was and I got the help I needed which goes along with the statement that Church leaders are shepherds but not Veterinarians.