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Any Chance Of Lds Schools For The Youth?

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#1 blueadept

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:30 AM

Jeff made an interesting comment that I wanted some feedback on

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It is this type of nonsensical response that reflects the utter contempt these people have. If you show how the rights are already guarranteed, you are still a racist or bigot. People like this want to take it to the extreme. For example, in CA they now mandate teaching gay history. And it can't be negative. One can for instance teach about the injustice of the Jackson administration on the Native Americans, it is negative. But if Jackson were gay? No you are not allowed to be discriminatory in that way. If something negative comes out, well, the school district can be challenged. Just as children may not be allowed to skip gay orientation classes because they aren't deemed "sex ed" just sex orientation.

As much emphasis that the LDS church has placed upon education, I'm surprised that you haven't installed your own school system so that you could avoid issues of this nature especially since you all seem to drive home your desire for the separation of Church and State.  Do you foresee more homeschooling, private schooling or keeping the status quo?   I'm well aware of your seminary program and how it functions in and out of the state of Utah but I wanted your opinion about the direction of the LDS church as you foresee it.

Edited by blueadept, 09 March 2012 - 09:32 AM.

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#2 Saints Alive

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:47 AM

Personally I would love to see LDS elementary and secondary education. However, I doubt it will ever happen on the same scale as the Catholic Church for several reasons. 1) LDS don’t want to seem anymore insular than they already are 2) outside of Utah, California, and Idaho, LDS populations are so small and spread out it would be hard to support a voluntary private education.

On a side not I do know of some LDS private schools in Utah but they are mostly resident schools and are geared toward troubled tweens and teens, and they are not officially affiliated with the LDS church.

Good question Blue. +1

EDIT: I would also like to add that I know several LDS families who send their kids to Catholic schools for the reasons you mention. I have heard some interesting stories about these LDS kids perspectives in their Catholic religion classes, and I have never heard of the Catholic schools treating these kids with anyhing but the utmost respect. And for that the Chatholic education system has my respect.

Edited by Saints Alive, 09 March 2012 - 09:51 AM.

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#3 Jeff K.

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:47 AM

Historically the LDS church had its own school system in Utah, and extensive colleges and academies throughout the Utah territories.  Government provided not real infrastructure.  In areas of high LDS concentration this is possible, but I would also point out that home schooling as an alternative is also very strong among LDS.
I would rather deal with a hundred ravenous wolves than sully myself with one dishonest man. The wolves are honest, straightforward and you know what it is they want. The battle is hard fought but open and free. The dishonest man though, he is a thing, like Cain, that should be shunned, exiled.

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#4 Deborah

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:06 AM

The church does have schools in countries where the education system is very poor. Supposedly our education system in the US is much better and if parents are involved good things are accomplished and I do think most LDS parents do get involved in the schools. They certainly do where I live. My grandkids go to a great school here in Utah. It's a charter school but under the state. We do offer Seminaries for high school students as either an early morning class or part of the curriculum if you are in Utah.
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#5 KevinG

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:09 AM

There was discussion about "another BYU" in the 90s but the LDS church leadership decided while BYU was a good idea we're not in the school business.  There are some church sponsored schools on some Pacific islands where the LDS population is high and the state does not provide good schooling.

I admire the Catholic schools and have taught in a couple of them as a student instructor.  It is just a role that the LDS church has decided is not needed with the other good options in most places where we have populations.
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#6 LeSellers

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:13 AM

There were, in the 1840s and '50s, LDS schools throughout Deseret/Utah.

The federal government forced the Church to disband them through a variety of pressures, not least of which was the "Blaine Amendment" (named after a Maine Senator). The Blaine Amendment was a condition of statehood for many western states, not just Utah, and was originally a tool used against Catholics. In essence, it required the state, Utah in this case, to have government-run, tax-funded (aka welfare) schools, and that they be "non-sectarian". On this question, Utah cannot amend her charter without explicit permission of the federal government.

Obviously, this was not the reason there were grtf-welfare schools before 1896 in Utah since the constitution didn't take effect until statehood. But the federal government either passed laws or "approved" them from 1848 through 1896 because Utah was a territory under the thumb of Washington, D.C., who also appointed governors and judges. However, the federal government did require the territory to have grtf-welfare schools. It did let the Saints appoint a Territorial Superintendent of Schools, John Taylor. Elder (later President) Taylor traveled throughout the territory admonishing the Saints not to use the grtf-welfare schools but to "send" their children to the stake academies. Brigham Young emphatically rejected government-controlled schools.

Under the oppression of the Anti-Bigamy Laws, though, the Saints were unable to pay both the school taxes and the tuition for their children to attend the stake academies (among which Brigham Young Academy). The effect was to make the Saints send their children to grtf-welfare schools because the tax was coerced. Stake Academies continued to exist until c. 1933, when David O. McKay sold Weber Stake Academy to the state of Utah for $1 because the stake and Church could no longer justify keeping it open for the low number of students who attended it.

In the same time frame, the Church initiated the Seminary program. It started in Magna, the only town (it's still not incorporated) in Utah with a substantially non-LDS population. The school board was not, therefore, controlled by Saints, but by our enemies and the curriculum and culture in the schools reflected that animosity. The High School there included many Saints' children who were coming home swearing, and drinking coffee and alcohol. To thwart this evil, the Brethren established the seminary program (with released time, but that may have come later, I wasn't there—not even I am that old).

If we were to extend the logic of Seminary to our modern world, LDS mothers would be bundling their second graders up for early-morning pre-seminary, because swearing is as common among 6 year-olds as sailors, and drugs are as prevalent in grammar school as grammar—more so in most schools I have taught in.

We do have middle schools and high schools in Polynesia (e.g., Liahona in Tonga) and elsewhere, but they are becoming fewer as the grtf-welfare schools in those areas grow in power and size.

It doesn't seem likely that the Church will re-establish a system of schools any time soon, alas! But there is no denying that the current counsel is for us to be wary of grtf-welfare schools. We might even say that, in spite of no explicit statement to do so, that Family-Centered Education (aka, but misleadingly so, home schooling) and other alternatives to government welfare schools are the recommended approach to education in the Church.

In the September, 1886, edition of the Overland Monthly, we read that the purpose of grtf-welfare schools in Utah was to divorce LDS children from their faith and their families, to "reduce to a minimum the influence of the Mormon [sic] priesthood" on our rising generation. It was the strong echo of the cry to make "good Americans [sic]" of the Irish and Italian immigrant children a few decades earlier. "Good Americans" meaning, of course, Protestants".

The Reverend Dabney warned his co-religionists that the same club they wielded in the XIX would be used against them one day in the future. He was not a Saint, but he certainly was a prophet.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers, 09 March 2012 - 10:46 AM.

The public school system: "Usually a twelve year sentence of mind control. Crushing creativity, smashing individualism, encouraging collectivism and compromise, destroying the exercise of intellectual inquiry, twisting it instead into meek subservience to authority".
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#7 blueadept

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:33 AM

LDS parents seem to be the most involved group when it comes to education so I do not necessarily expect a major change even with the insurgence of curriculum that we all detest into the public school system.  IMO, parents of other faiths would tend to panic more and look for other alternatives than I've witnessed from LDS families.  Another interesting note is that I believe your kids seem to retain their LDS faith and are proactive more than kids of other faiths.  I tend to give credit to the parents involvement more than anything else.   The numbers indicate that LDS (and Jewish) kids tend to know their faiths much better than their Catholic and EV bretheren.  So what you're doing works, why fix it?

Quote

I would also like to add that I know several LDS families who send their kids to Catholic schools for the reasons you mention. I have heard some interesting stories about these LDS kids perspectives in their Catholic religion classes


That would be an interesting perspective to hear...    My kids didn't go through Catholic schools, but I'm happy with where they are at in regards to their Catholic faith.  I'm convinced that the parental involvement is a major factor but it's also important not to smother the kids in the process.  I've seen too many Catholic kids run from the church once they were done with Catholic schools.  In each case, I've witnessed the kids being smothered in some aspect as to the reason they left.  There's a few that came out fine but they seem to be the exception and not the rule.  Just my POV.

Lehi, I appreciate the history perspective...  

Edited by blueadept, 09 March 2012 - 10:36 AM.

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In Honor of Anijen, the 2012 MD&D March Madness Champion "There once was a Pharisee named Saul, Who persecuted Christians with gall. Then God struck him blind And opened his mind, So he could recognize his true call."

#8 KevinG

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:37 AM

View Postblueadept, on 09 March 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

I've seen too many Catholic kids run from the church once they were done with Catholic schools.  In each case, I've witnessed the kids being smothered in some aspect as to the reason they left.  

Your POV has some validity to it.  I was reading some studies about parenting and was pleased to see one study that showed the single biggest factor is children adopting their parents values was how much love was demonstrated at a young age.  Parents who take a my way or the highway approach without demonstrating love and acceptance are setting up conditions for rebellion IMO.
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#9 thesometimesaint

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:49 AM

It isn't going to happen any time soon. In 2010 in the US there were slightly less than 100,000 public schools(K-12).

#10 LeSellers

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:52 AM

View Postthesometimesaint, on 09 March 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

It isn't going to happen any time soon. In 2010 in the US there were slightly less than 100,000 public schools(K-12).
Which is about 99,999 too many.

Lehi
The public school system: "Usually a twelve year sentence of mind control. Crushing creativity, smashing individualism, encouraging collectivism and compromise, destroying the exercise of intellectual inquiry, twisting it instead into meek subservience to authority".
— Walter Karp

#11 blueadept

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:55 AM

View PostKevinG, on 09 March 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:


Your POV has some validity to it.  I was reading some studies about parenting and was pleased to see one study that showed the single biggest factor is children adopting their parents values was how much love was demonstrated at a young age.  Parents who take a my way or the highway approach without demonstrating love and acceptance are setting up conditions for rebellion IMO.
My girl's mom and I divorced when they were little and I had physical custody.  Most were surprised that I permitted my girls to live with their mom when they were 9 and 10 but I figured they would eventually move back with me in short order (which they did after 1 and 4 years).  The interesting moment came after 2 years when I got called into a counseling office with my youngest daughter, the mom, counselor and myself and my daughter told me that she wanted to be baptised as a Christian (into a non-denominational church).  Since she was already Catholic, I could have gone a hundred different ways but I simply said that was fine as long as she allowed me to teach her the Catholic faith until she was 16 and then I would not make any further issue about it.  The shocked expressions on everyone's faces was priceless.  The end result was that she moved back in with me 2 years later, fell in love with her Catholic faith and is onfire with it.  She's the one who will be doing a 10 month mission this coming August in a Catholic lay ministry in either Washington DC or Kansas City.  Good stuff...

I don't think I smothered her...
"Change is inevitable, Growth is not"
In Honor of Anijen, the 2012 MD&D March Madness Champion "There once was a Pharisee named Saul, Who persecuted Christians with gall. Then God struck him blind And opened his mind, So he could recognize his true call."

#12 blueadept

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:59 AM

View PostJeff K., on 09 March 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

... but I would also point out that home schooling as an alternative is also very strong among LDS.

I would think this would be a strong alternative as well but I haven't witnessed this at all.  Perhaps someone could provide a statistic.  
"Change is inevitable, Growth is not"
In Honor of Anijen, the 2012 MD&D March Madness Champion "There once was a Pharisee named Saul, Who persecuted Christians with gall. Then God struck him blind And opened his mind, So he could recognize his true call."

#13 Jeff K.

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:13 AM

I know several families in our stake that do this....


http://lds-nha.org/

http://www.ldshea.org/

http://ldshomeschoolinginca.org/

http://www.latter-da...eschooling.com/

http://www.google.co...6&bih=612&ion=1
I would rather deal with a hundred ravenous wolves than sully myself with one dishonest man. The wolves are honest, straightforward and you know what it is they want. The battle is hard fought but open and free. The dishonest man though, he is a thing, like Cain, that should be shunned, exiled.

"You will rise or fall to the kingdom within which you feel the greatest comfort."

"There are those who would define the family in such a nontraditional way that they would define the family out of existence."
President Spencer W. Kimball 1980

#14 Jeff K.

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:13 AM

The plethora of websites is indicative
I would rather deal with a hundred ravenous wolves than sully myself with one dishonest man. The wolves are honest, straightforward and you know what it is they want. The battle is hard fought but open and free. The dishonest man though, he is a thing, like Cain, that should be shunned, exiled.

"You will rise or fall to the kingdom within which you feel the greatest comfort."

"There are those who would define the family in such a nontraditional way that they would define the family out of existence."
President Spencer W. Kimball 1980

#15 thesometimesaint

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:14 AM

Lehi:

You can always more to your libertarian paradice of Somalia.


#16 Saints Alive

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:23 AM

View Postblueadept, on 09 March 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:



That would be an interesting perspective to hear...  


Most of the stories revolve around the students correcting the teacher’s misconceptions about LDS doctrine (as I understand they cover other religions in their religion class)or the student bearing testimony about their religion. There were some other interesting comparisons that they brought up but I can’t recall the specifics.
To paraphrase a source I can’t remember, the Catholic Church holds the Keys to apostolic succession or Joseph Smith restored those keys, Protestants don’t have a theological leg to stand on.
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#17 LeSellers

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:30 AM

View Postthesometimesaint, on 09 March 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

You can always more to your libertarian paradice of Somalia.
Must you resort to such untenable extremes?

Government, per se, is not bad. What is bad is the fact that government always oversteps its legitimate bounds.

See Doc&Cov 134 for the full, official, doctrinal position on government.

Doc&Cov 134:2, 4 said:

2 We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.
...
4 We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.
It has been a very long time since any government on earth has met these standards.

Lehi
P.S.: It's "paradise". I assume you attended a government-run school. 'nuff said. LS

Edited by LeSellers, 09 March 2012 - 01:44 PM.

The public school system: "Usually a twelve year sentence of mind control. Crushing creativity, smashing individualism, encouraging collectivism and compromise, destroying the exercise of intellectual inquiry, twisting it instead into meek subservience to authority".
— Walter Karp

#18 Ares

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:33 AM

View Postthesometimesaint, on 09 March 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Lehi:

You can always more to your libertarian paradice of Somalia.


Make sure this is related to LDS schools and not purely political commentary.
This is a Mormon dialogue and discussion board, not a misrepresent, demonize and debate board.  Please learn the difference before posting.

#19 LeSellers

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:36 AM

View PostJeff K., on 09 March 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

I know several families in our stake that do this....
And I know several in our ward who do.

They have the most intelligent, polite, and spiritual children in the ward, and ,no, they're not just our son'n'daughter-in-law's little girls.

Lehi
The public school system: "Usually a twelve year sentence of mind control. Crushing creativity, smashing individualism, encouraging collectivism and compromise, destroying the exercise of intellectual inquiry, twisting it instead into meek subservience to authority".
— Walter Karp

#20 thesometimesaint

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:41 AM

Ares:

No problem. While I went to and appreciate places like BYU. I can forsee of no time when the Church will have the number of members or money resources to provide anything close to what is provided for by local, state, and national governments. Maybe in The Millenium .

Edited by thesometimesaint, 09 March 2012 - 11:41 AM.



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