blueadept Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) Jeff made an interesting comment that I wanted some feedback onIt is this type of nonsensical response that reflects the utter contempt these people have. If you show how the rights are already guarranteed, you are still a racist or bigot. People like this want to take it to the extreme. For example, in CA they now mandate teaching gay history. And it can't be negative. One can for instance teach about the injustice of the Jackson administration on the Native Americans, it is negative. But if Jackson were gay? No you are not allowed to be discriminatory in that way. If something negative comes out, well, the school district can be challenged. Just as children may not be allowed to skip gay orientation classes because they aren't deemed "sex ed" just sex orientation. As much emphasis that the LDS church has placed upon education, I'm surprised that you haven't installed your own school system so that you could avoid issues of this nature especially since you all seem to drive home your desire for the separation of Church and State. Do you foresee more homeschooling, private schooling or keeping the status quo? I'm well aware of your seminary program and how it functions in and out of the state of Utah but I wanted your opinion about the direction of the LDS church as you foresee it. Edited March 9, 2012 by blueadept 1
Saints Alive Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) Personally I would love to see LDS elementary and secondary education. However, I doubt it will ever happen on the same scale as the Catholic Church for several reasons. 1) LDS don’t want to seem anymore insular than they already are 2) outside of Utah, California, and Idaho, LDS populations are so small and spread out it would be hard to support a voluntary private education. On a side not I do know of some LDS private schools in Utah but they are mostly resident schools and are geared toward troubled tweens and teens, and they are not officially affiliated with the LDS church.Good question Blue. +1EDIT: I would also like to add that I know several LDS families who send their kids to Catholic schools for the reasons you mention. I have heard some interesting stories about these LDS kids perspectives in their Catholic religion classes, and I have never heard of the Catholic schools treating these kids with anyhing but the utmost respect. And for that the Chatholic education system has my respect. Edited March 9, 2012 by Saints Alive
Jeff K. Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Historically the LDS church had its own school system in Utah, and extensive colleges and academies throughout the Utah territories. Government provided not real infrastructure. In areas of high LDS concentration this is possible, but I would also point out that home schooling as an alternative is also very strong among LDS.
Deborah Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 The church does have schools in countries where the education system is very poor. Supposedly our education system in the US is much better and if parents are involved good things are accomplished and I do think most LDS parents do get involved in the schools. They certainly do where I live. My grandkids go to a great school here in Utah. It's a charter school but under the state. We do offer Seminaries for high school students as either an early morning class or part of the curriculum if you are in Utah.
KevinG Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 There was discussion about "another BYU" in the 90s but the LDS church leadership decided while BYU was a good idea we're not in the school business. There are some church sponsored schools on some Pacific islands where the LDS population is high and the state does not provide good schooling.I admire the Catholic schools and have taught in a couple of them as a student instructor. It is just a role that the LDS church has decided is not needed with the other good options in most places where we have populations.
LeSellers Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) There were, in the 1840s and '50s, LDS schools throughout Deseret/Utah.The federal government forced the Church to disband them through a variety of pressures, not least of which was the "Blaine Amendment" (named after a Maine Senator). The Blaine Amendment was a condition of statehood for many western states, not just Utah, and was originally a tool used against Catholics. In essence, it required the state, Utah in this case, to have government-run, tax-funded (aka welfare) schools, and that they be "non-sectarian". On this question, Utah cannot amend her charter without explicit permission of the federal government.Obviously, this was not the reason there were grtf-welfare schools before 1896 in Utah since the constitution didn't take effect until statehood. But the federal government either passed laws or "approved" them from 1848 through 1896 because Utah was a territory under the thumb of Washington, D.C., who also appointed governors and judges. However, the federal government did require the territory to have grtf-welfare schools. It did let the Saints appoint a Territorial Superintendent of Schools, John Taylor. Elder (later President) Taylor traveled throughout the territory admonishing the Saints not to use the grtf-welfare schools but to "send" their children to the stake academies. Brigham Young emphatically rejected government-controlled schools.Under the oppression of the Anti-Bigamy Laws, though, the Saints were unable to pay both the school taxes and the tuition for their children to attend the stake academies (among which Brigham Young Academy). The effect was to make the Saints send their children to grtf-welfare schools because the tax was coerced. Stake Academies continued to exist until c. 1933, when David O. McKay sold Weber Stake Academy to the state of Utah for $1 because the stake and Church could no longer justify keeping it open for the low number of students who attended it.In the same time frame, the Church initiated the Seminary program. It started in Magna, the only town (it's still not incorporated) in Utah with a substantially non-LDS population. The school board was not, therefore, controlled by Saints, but by our enemies and the curriculum and culture in the schools reflected that animosity. The High School there included many Saints' children who were coming home swearing, and drinking coffee and alcohol. To thwart this evil, the Brethren established the seminary program (with released time, but that may have come later, I wasn't there—not even I am that old).If we were to extend the logic of Seminary to our modern world, LDS mothers would be bundling their second graders up for early-morning pre-seminary, because swearing is as common among 6 year-olds as sailors, and drugs are as prevalent in grammar school as grammar—more so in most schools I have taught in.We do have middle schools and high schools in Polynesia (e.g., Liahona in Tonga) and elsewhere, but they are becoming fewer as the grtf-welfare schools in those areas grow in power and size.It doesn't seem likely that the Church will re-establish a system of schools any time soon, alas! But there is no denying that the current counsel is for us to be wary of grtf-welfare schools. We might even say that, in spite of no explicit statement to do so, that Family-Centered Education (aka, but misleadingly so, home schooling) and other alternatives to government welfare schools are the recommended approach to education in the Church.In the September, 1886, edition of the Overland Monthly, we read that the purpose of grtf-welfare schools in Utah was to divorce LDS children from their faith and their families, to "reduce to a minimum the influence of the Mormon [sic] priesthood" on our rising generation. It was the strong echo of the cry to make "good Americans [sic]" of the Irish and Italian immigrant children a few decades earlier. "Good Americans" meaning, of course, Protestants".The Reverend Dabney warned his co-religionists that the same club they wielded in the XIX would be used against them one day in the future. He was not a Saint, but he certainly was a prophet.Lehi Edited March 9, 2012 by LeSellers 1
blueadept Posted March 9, 2012 Author Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) LDS parents seem to be the most involved group when it comes to education so I do not necessarily expect a major change even with the insurgence of curriculum that we all detest into the public school system. IMO, parents of other faiths would tend to panic more and look for other alternatives than I've witnessed from LDS families. Another interesting note is that I believe your kids seem to retain their LDS faith and are proactive more than kids of other faiths. I tend to give credit to the parents involvement more than anything else. The numbers indicate that LDS (and Jewish) kids tend to know their faiths much better than their Catholic and EV bretheren. So what you're doing works, why fix it?I would also like to add that I know several LDS families who send their kids to Catholic schools for the reasons you mention. I have heard some interesting stories about these LDS kids perspectives in their Catholic religion classesThat would be an interesting perspective to hear... My kids didn't go through Catholic schools, but I'm happy with where they are at in regards to their Catholic faith. I'm convinced that the parental involvement is a major factor but it's also important not to smother the kids in the process. I've seen too many Catholic kids run from the church once they were done with Catholic schools. In each case, I've witnessed the kids being smothered in some aspect as to the reason they left. There's a few that came out fine but they seem to be the exception and not the rule. Just my POV.Lehi, I appreciate the history perspective... Edited March 9, 2012 by blueadept
KevinG Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I've seen too many Catholic kids run from the church once they were done with Catholic schools. In each case, I've witnessed the kids being smothered in some aspect as to the reason they left. Your POV has some validity to it. I was reading some studies about parenting and was pleased to see one study that showed the single biggest factor is children adopting their parents values was how much love was demonstrated at a young age. Parents who take a my way or the highway approach without demonstrating love and acceptance are setting up conditions for rebellion IMO. 2
thesometimesaint Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 It isn't going to happen any time soon. In 2010 in the US there were slightly less than 100,000 public schools(K-12).
LeSellers Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 It isn't going to happen any time soon. In 2010 in the US there were slightly less than 100,000 public schools(K-12).Which is about 99,999 too many.Lehi
blueadept Posted March 9, 2012 Author Posted March 9, 2012 Your POV has some validity to it. I was reading some studies about parenting and was pleased to see one study that showed the single biggest factor is children adopting their parents values was how much love was demonstrated at a young age. Parents who take a my way or the highway approach without demonstrating love and acceptance are setting up conditions for rebellion IMO. My girl's mom and I divorced when they were little and I had physical custody. Most were surprised that I permitted my girls to live with their mom when they were 9 and 10 but I figured they would eventually move back with me in short order (which they did after 1 and 4 years). The interesting moment came after 2 years when I got called into a counseling office with my youngest daughter, the mom, counselor and myself and my daughter told me that she wanted to be baptised as a Christian (into a non-denominational church). Since she was already Catholic, I could have gone a hundred different ways but I simply said that was fine as long as she allowed me to teach her the Catholic faith until she was 16 and then I would not make any further issue about it. The shocked expressions on everyone's faces was priceless. The end result was that she moved back in with me 2 years later, fell in love with her Catholic faith and is onfire with it. She's the one who will be doing a 10 month mission this coming August in a Catholic lay ministry in either Washington DC or Kansas City. Good stuff... I don't think I smothered her... 2
blueadept Posted March 9, 2012 Author Posted March 9, 2012 ... but I would also point out that home schooling as an alternative is also very strong among LDS.I would think this would be a strong alternative as well but I haven't witnessed this at all. Perhaps someone could provide a statistic.
Jeff K. Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I know several families in our stake that do this....http://lds-nha.org/http://www.ldshea.org/http://ldshomeschoolinginca.org/http://www.latter-dayhomeschooling.com/http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=toolbar-instant&hl=en&ion=1&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4GGHP_enUS453US454#q=lds+home+schooling&hl=en&safe=active&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4GGHP_enUS453US454&site=webhp&prmd=imvns&ei=aUZaT6irKIeQiALX8qikBw&start=10&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=beabc6fad1610087&biw=1366&bih=612&ion=1
thesometimesaint Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Lehi:You can always more to your libertarian paradice of Somalia.
Saints Alive Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 That would be an interesting perspective to hear... Most of the stories revolve around the students correcting the teacher’s misconceptions about LDS doctrine (as I understand they cover other religions in their religion class)or the student bearing testimony about their religion. There were some other interesting comparisons that they brought up but I can’t recall the specifics. To paraphrase a source I can’t remember, the Catholic Church holds the Keys to apostolic succession or Joseph Smith restored those keys, Protestants don’t have a theological leg to stand on.
LeSellers Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) You can always more to your libertarian paradice of Somalia.Must you resort to such untenable extremes?Government, per se, is not bad. What is bad is the fact that government always oversteps its legitimate bounds.See Doc&Cov 134 for the full, official, doctrinal position on government. 2 We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life....4 We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.It has been a very long time since any government on earth has met these standards.LehiP.S.: It's "paradise". I assume you attended a government-run school. 'nuff said. LS Edited March 9, 2012 by LeSellers 1
Ares Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Lehi:You can always more to your libertarian paradice of Somalia.Make sure this is related to LDS schools and not purely political commentary.
LeSellers Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I know several families in our stake that do this....And I know several in our ward who do.They have the most intelligent, polite, and spiritual children in the ward, and ,no, they're not just our son'n'daughter-in-law's little girls.Lehi
thesometimesaint Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) Ares:No problem. While I went to and appreciate places like BYU. I can forsee of no time when the Church will have the number of members or money resources to provide anything close to what is provided for by local, state, and national governments. Maybe in The Millenium . Edited March 9, 2012 by thesometimesaint
blueadept Posted March 9, 2012 Author Posted March 9, 2012 Most of the stories revolve around the students correcting the teacher’s misconceptions about LDS doctrine (as I understand they cover other religions in their religion class)or the student bearing testimony about their religion. There were some other interesting comparisons that they brought up but I can’t recall the specifics. I believe I've become the lead authority in our parish in regards to correcting misconceptions about LDS doctrine since our previous priest left. The misconceptions were bad enough that I felt that if I was standing on a pitcher's mound in a ballpark, I felt that they were standing in the parking lot. I once had to correct a RCIA teacher who was talking about baptism and the need to use the correct words and form for a valid baptism and he stated that Mormons used the wrong words which is totally bunk as I corrected him and explained to him where the issue really is.I've been civilly divorced for 1.5 years from my LDS wife and I still feel like I'm a spokesman for the LDS church.....hmmmmm
blueadept Posted March 9, 2012 Author Posted March 9, 2012 Ares:No problem. While I went to and appreciate places like BYU. I can forsee of no time when the Church will have the number of members or money resources to provide anything close to what is provided for by local, state, and national governments. Maybe in The Millenium .I believe the answer will be homeschooling in the near future.
thesometimesaint Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Lehi:Because you make untenable and unsupportable statements. Your Jihad against public sector education is well known. All I am doing is informing you of the consequences of such statements if broadly applied.The "govmet" isn't forcing you to believe anything. You can send your children to a taxpayer supported school, a private school, a religious school. You can even home school your children. The state of California even has published guidelines on how to do it, and not violate the law. Teach your children that Fred Flintstone worked in a stone quarry on the back of a dinosaur, if that floats your boat. 1
Jeff K. Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 There are two points when a school is plausible and even necessary. One was when an isolated church received no government infrastructure and began developing its own system. Maeser Academy to BYU reflects that in its history. There you have limited resources and a concentrated population.Another occurance could be when education and the internet combine in a ubiquitous manner. In other words it becomes easy with an internet infrastructure to download educational material directly to the home or neighborhood. This flattening of the structure or bureaucracy could very well occur with the proper safeguards. It is a potential path we are traveling down as the internet is used more widely in education for various reasons. Some indications of thisWikipedia is now considered as accurate a Encyclopedia Brittannica, it is also the most widely used source for information.Higher education classes and degrees can now be acquired on line.Public education (usually the slowest to adapt) has begun supplementing education with internet products.I could see education easily individualized to groups as it is presently for families.
thesometimesaint Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 JeffK.:A lot would depend on parental involvement. But the same applies to public education as well. The more involved the parents become the better schools become.I can see where the use of the Internet could be an adjunct to schools in areas like History, and in this country, English, for the already proficient English speaker. Much less so for those who do not. Math and Science would be much much harder as they are "hands on" subjects.
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