However I know little about the Kabbalah and related teachings. I've found a couple of very basic presentations for Latter-Day Saints and I'd be interested on any criticism DubaDNura and Samlam might have.
Most of us that have spent time in cyber space have run into Kerry Shirts from time to time. I always find his material very interesting and thought provoking. He provides some reasonable scholarship and can be a nice source for information.
One of the things I do on the side is I am a bee inspector for a Utah county. When I go out, especially when I am visiting the "newbies" to the bee scene is I tell them that I will explain what I know and do everything I can to assist them be successful, but I caution that every beekeeper out there does it a little bit different and everyone of them thinks he knows bees best. I then mention that the only constant is the bees are smarter than we are and simply adapt to our efforts and make us look like we know more than we know.
It is a poor comparison at best, but what I am trying to encourage is learn what you can from what others offer but realize the constant is to be taught by the spirit. Trust no source until you feel like the spirit confirms your understanding. Never, criticize or undermine the leaders of the Church in any way whatsoever as that is the surest indicator a person is not half as bright as they think they are. For myself, I appreciate intellectual discourse but am cautious about those that manifest a priority for looking smart over being spiritual. Otherwise study a way and let the spirit guide the path. I can't speak to druidism as I have only the slightest exposure. I find Jewish Mysticism significant as a means of giving me a venue from which to study the scriptures that is interesting, compelling and captivating. Look forward to your interactions with us.
This is precisely the problem I have with Kabbalah studies, especially for believers in Christ.
The basic assumption is that it is a study of objective "realities" of God- that the various interpretations "actually exist" and express "true" propositions about God.
Volgadon emphasized the figurative or metaphorical nature of Qabbala.
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And yet one cannot possibly understand these references without understanding Hebrew and having a pretty good working knowledge of Judaism.
Why would God reveal truths relevant to Christians, which are mostly allegedly about Christianity (at least that is your assumption here) ONLY to Jews who are very familiar with Hebrew and Jewish theology?
I understand studying this for a greater understanding of Jewish theology of course- and of Jewish tradition- all of that makes perfect sense to me, but for a Christian to study it, believing it is somehow relevant to Christianity, revealing "truths" supposed to be esoteric Christian doctrine NOT known generally to Christians but known only to Jewish scholars- THAT I find very hard to understand.
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I know that the Jews do understand the things of the prophets, and there is none other people that understand the things
which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them, save it be that they are taught after the manner of the things of the Jews.
II Nephi 25:5
What you say is certainly true, and it does create a dilemma for us. On the one hand, we should appreciate the simplicity (peshat) and directness of the Gospel message. On the other, Jesus was a Jew enmeshed in a Jewish cultural milieu. His followers were Jews who well understood the nature of that milieu. The early Christian Church was a Jewish sect very much like the Qumran covenanters.
The OT & NT scriptures are Jewish (or Israelite and Abrahamic in full context). We can read them in translation, and examine the footnotes, and follow out the references and maps as best we can. We can pray for assistance in that process, and hope for enlightenment about a very foreign world -- a strange world which we also find in the Book of Mormon and in the Pearl of Great Price.
What has become apparent to scholars (and probably not to the rest of us) is that understanding Jesus and the Holy Scriptures requires that we do the best we can to understand the strange world they come from, i.e., Amy-Jill Levine now says what many Jewish scholars now say,
"Christian scholars and teachers now emphasize that Jesus cannot be understood apart from Judaism. If you want to understand Jesus, you must understand the Jewish world in which he lived." Levine, “Jesus Who?” Moment, 27/4 (Aug 2002), 75.
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"To wrench Jesus out of his Jewish world destroys Jesus and destroys Christianity, the religion that grew out of his teachings. Even Jesus' most familiar role as Christ is a Jewish role. If Christians leave the concrete realities of Jesus' life and of the history of Israel in favor of a mythic, universal, spiritual Jesus and an otherworldly kingdom of God, they deny their origins in Israel, their history, and the God who has loved and protected Israel and the church. They cease to interpret the actual Jesus sent by God and remake him in their own image and likeness."
Anthony J. Saldarini, "What Price the Uniqueness of Jesus?" Bible Review, XV/3 (June 1999), 17.
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" . . . the discussion shows us plainly that the corner has been turned, and that Jesus can no longer be marginalized from his own Judaism. The historicity of this rabbi has been recognized, and here we are shown that his history can only make sense to us when we locate his actions and teachings within his Jewish religious and cultural context."
Bruce Chilton, Bible Review, XVI/4 (August 2000), 54-55.
Indeed, Jewish scholars now readily admit that the Messianic notions of Christianity (especially the Suffering Servant of Isaiah) were an integral part of Judaism before the birth of Jesus and before the rise of Christianity:
Michael O. WIse, The First Messiah: Investigating the Savior Before Christ (S.F.: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999).
Israel Knohl, The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls (Berkeley: U.C. Press, 2000).
Judaism is an integral part of Christianity. Unless we understand it, we are going to miss a great deal within Holy Scripture and its interpretation.
"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." Mark Twain
I assure you that it is you that is ignorant of ancient Judaism. Read the Bible instead of listening to your teachers who appose [sic] the bible. -Echo
i REALLY NEVER NEW YOU WAS A UNLEARNED PERSON. -Lucy Ann Harmon, a facebook anti-Mormon
Indeed, Jewish scholars now readily admit that the Messianic notions of Christianity (especially the Suffering Servant of Isaiah) were an integral part of Judaism before the birth of Jesus and before the rise of Christianity:
Michael O. WIse, The First Messiah: Investigating the Savior Before Christ (S.F.: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999).
Israel Knohl, The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls (Berkeley: U.C. Press, 2000).
Judaism is an integral part of Christianity. Unless we understand it, we are going to miss a great deal within Holy Scripture and its interpretation.
Totally agree.
BUT
Are you saying that Jesus was a Kabbalah scholar?
The question for me is, how much additional understanding of HIS message can we find here? I suppose the question becomes how much of Kabbalah is of medieval origin? I suppose it is analogous to studying Masonry to learn about the LDS temple. In that case there are limits.
Arguably both Masonry and temple rites come from the same sources, but the question remains- how much can one learn of the "true origins" can one discover by studying an admittedly apostate branch? And the other practical consideration- is that what LDS who teach and learn Kabbalah have as a major consideration, or do they just get involved in all the cool symbology? I could totally immerse myself in it because I just think it is so cool! The question becomes- will it actually advance my understanding of the "true" nature of God as we LDS understand it?
I am having trouble seeing how the investment of time would prove worthwhile to truly understand God from an LDS perspective.
To me it is kind of like studying Aquinas to deepen my understanding of LDS doctrine. Since I have indeed studied Aquinas, I would discourage anyone from thinking there is anything relevant to LDS doctrine there whatsoever. I mean if you are a Medievalist and into that stuff- great! But for understanding LDS doctrine and the nature of the LDS God- there's nothing there.
Edited by mfbukowski, 01 May 2012 - 11:39 AM.
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, ... creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
The question for me is, how much additional understanding of HIS message can we find here? I suppose the question becomes how much of Kabbalah is of medieval origin? I suppose it is analogous to studying Masonry to learn about the LDS temple. In that case there are limits.
Arguably both Masonry and temple rites come from the same sources, but the question remains- how much can one learn of the "true origins" can one discover by studying an admittedly apostate branch? And the other practical consideration- is that what LDS who teach and learn Kabbalah have as a major consideration, or do they just get involved in all the cool symbology? I could totally immerse myself in it because I just think it is so cool! The question becomes- will it actually advance my understanding of the "true" nature of God as we LDS understand it?
I am having trouble seeing how the investment of time would prove worthwhile to truly understand God from an LDS perspective.
First - Jesus was the Kabbalah source - probably makes him a master. I can add only from my experience as a “gentile” who has accepted and not discounted the significance of the references in the Book of Mormon the value of the things of the Jews. Kabbalah is one venue but I have tried to approach from others as well. I have two perspectives on these materials. I started with some material in the introduction of Understanding Isaiah using Book of Mormon Textual Clues by Avraham Gileadi, and a Book by an author Joe Sampson – Written by the Finger of God. These both were stepping stones but each pointed me towards purer Jewish sources. The Sefir Yetzirah, Bahir, Zohar become further guides which I still refer to. I have spent years trying to grasp the principles of PRDS and only feel some real success in the past 3 or 4 – It has been the most valuable paradigm changing device for altering how I view scripture. . I started studying Hebrew, not just the language but several years on the meanings of the letters themselves and how they influence definitions etc. Finally, more esoteric material like Yikra bi Shami by Ariel Bar Tzadok. I have spent a great deal of time in Jewish Law , The Code of Jewish Law is a favorite source and a much larger Tome that I cannot remember. I have multiple books on Jewish Symbolism and I reference them often. I love targums, and I include as part of my efforts Pseudopegriphical writings and Apocryphal writings recommending the R. H. Charles 2 volumes The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament books and several others. After all of these years here is my basic take. Each of us has methods that enable us to learn the gospel. I sometimes admit to myself that my efforts have been a crutch that appealed to my need to give me somewhere to focus from a venue that was captivating and immensely interesting. As captivating as these were it enabled me to develop habits of study that have been consistent and dependable. The benefit has been the journey. As I look back from my current perspectives and knowledge I could have gotten to where I am only on one principle. In all of my efforts I sought diligently for the spirit to direct my learning. Now did the spirit need all of my resources to teach me. No I suspect and genuinely feel that the scriptures alone could have been adequate resource. I can say that because for the past 3-4 years they have become almost exclusively what I depend on to direct my understandings. However, the wealth of exposure I have had to Jewish material is a constant filter when I study. So…I needed those resources just to help keep me engaged long enough that I could grow to depend on the scriptures. This is my first perspective. My second perspective is that what I own to the Jews is not the material itself but knowledge of how they would study it. They are the spiritual scholars of religion. They apply rules of study that typical gentiles will never grasp because they overlook the merit. Nobody can grasp, LDS included, spiritual imagery like the Jews. They think in a much more open fashion. As dependent as our western culture is on tangibles and proofs the Jews are in their acceptance of the tangible proofs being in the spiritual realm. The Torah, or the law is the proof. If it claims an event occurred they simply build from there. As they have done so they have built an entire structure of how to evaluate the scriptures and attempt to maintain integrity of thought and continuity. So in the study of application of tenants of spiritual study, I think they excel. Their entire culture has been based on knowing and defining means of knowing God. Now do not mistake my perspective. I am not saying that they in their efforts came to correct conclusions. The moment you stop pondering upon Jesus Christ as the center of your religious study you will go astray…and they did. However, the techniques, the manner and insight that can be gleaned has been for me priceless.
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Nathair, on 28 April 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:
