164 replies to this topic

[wenglund]

Since we now have a non-LDS, Jewish participant here who seems quite familiar with Kabbalah, and gratefully seems willing to share his knowledge with us, I thought it would be good to open a general discussion on the subject of Kabbalah and Mormonism (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

To get the discussion rolling, I will repost one of his messages from another thread (see below).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Here is the first part of DubaNura post:

Ok, as promised, some sources on my earlier statement that singing (as in "and they did sing") is connected with Keter/Desire which is the highest emanation of G-d. Also as promised, I've based it on a teaching from Rebbe Nachman of Breslav:

I am not a follower of the Breslav Chassidic school (if it can be called a school – since there are so many adherents to it that cannot seem to agree on what it means). But Rebbe Nachman’s approach is nonetheless a very fascinating one, if you’re creative enough to be able to make heads or tails out of his writings. (My brains I can’t speak for, but I think I proved my creativity when I offered a Kabbalistic interpretation of a verse from the Book of Mormon).

Here’s a little background into Rebbe Nachman of Breslav before I quote him on the subject of music. Feel free to skip this paragraph. Rebbe Nachman was born in Mezhbuzh, a town in Ukraine. He was a great grandson of the Baal Shem Tov, the founder of the Chassidic movement. By the time he was 13 years old, he was married, and was teaching people that were older than him. In 1802, when he was 30 years old, he moved to the town of Breslav, also in Unkraine, where he met Rabbi Nathan Sternhartz (known in the Breslav community simply as “Reb Nosson”). Reb Nosson eventually transcribed many of Rebbe Nachman’s teachings into a book, that he called Likutei Mohara’’n, which simply means “Collections from the Master, Rebbe Nachman” (Mohara’’n is an acronym). Rebbe Nachman’s approach was considered controversial in his day; and to this day, there are those who learn his approach, and those who quite pointedly do not. But for a couple of accidents, I would likely be in the latter camp. Many of the Chassidic giants of his day saw his nuanced approach – which emphasized, and sought to explain, Kabbalah, and particularly the Tikunei Zohar – as a departure from the Baal Shem Tov’s approach (despite the fact that the Baal Shem Tov himself taught Kabbalah very openly). Not all Chassidic masters were against him, however. Among his supporters was Rabbi Levi Yitzchok of Berditchev, whose grand-daughter married the grandson of Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, the first Rebbe of the Chabad school. His teachings (called “Torahs,” by Breslav Chassidim) are largely based on, and explanations of, the Tikunei Zohar – an addendum to the Zohar that offers 70 explanations of the verse “In the Beginning, G-d created the heavens and the earth.” (You’ve probably heard that verse quoted elsewhere). Enough name dropping, lets talk turkey.

The concept of song is described in a number of places in Kabbalistic sources. In the Lurianic Kabbalah, as condified in the book Eitz Chaim, there is an entire chapter called “Shaar Tant’a”, Shaar means gate (but in Eitz Chaim, the word gate just means chapter). Tant’a is an acronym for Taamim, Nekudos, Tagim, Otiot, or musical notes (literally, “taste” or “reason,” which correspond to Keter and Chochma, Crown/Desire and Wisdom, respectively), vowel marks (literally, dots), crowns (to understand this one, you need to see Hebrew written in a Torah. Some of the letters have crowns), and letters.

These 4 things all have to do with reading the Torah. If you look into a proper Torah scroll (see below), you will see that the letters do not have any punctuation. I’ve been impressed with the level of discourse on this forum, so I gather that many of you know that vowelization in Hebrew is through dots and marks that appear above, below, and to an extent between, the letters. If you look in the Torah, you will find no such dots. The reader therefore must go by memory or by context clues. Finally, the proper reading of the Torah, as part of the synagogue service, requires the reader to use a “trop,” or musical notes that add emphasis to the words, and function as commas and periods. Once again, those notes do not appear in the actual Torah text.

The full Shaar in Eitz Chaim is too complicated to get into here, but it identifies Taamim, the musical notes, with Keter and with Chochma. Keter is the highest sefirah. It means “crown” literally, but denotes Desire and Pleasure. What drives a person to have an intellect and emotions to do something is the initial desire to do it, and the pleasure that results from its having been done. This is true with G-dly endeavors, as it is true with simple things like eating a hotdog. 1. The person has a desire that needs to be met (Taamim). 2. The desire manifests in his mind as a subtle nagging that creates an image of the desire’s fulfillment (Nekudos – related to the eyes, which see images). 3. The person determines logically how to meet the desire head-on (Tagim). 4. The logical conclusion arrived at previously is stated in a single statement of intention: “I will go buy a hotdog, and then consume it with mustard, but no ketchup,” (Otiot).

This makes sense logically (how do we talk “logically” about something that, by its definition, is above logic. This is the magic of Kabbalah). A song expresses messages that are much deeper than the simple words to the song.

The trick in Kabbalah is to remember that all of Kabbalah is a metaphor. Torah itself is called the primary metaphor. In other words, it expresses something inexpressible. The experience of following Torah’s precepts teaches a person about G-d. However, the experiences of keeping Torah have to be understood properly for them to be as meaningful as possible. Otherwise, keeping seemingly dogmatic commandments can seem by-rote and bereft of meaning. Kabbalah, for that reason, uses metaphors that appeal universally to human experience, or directly to Torah law. Romance and eroticism, for example, become primary metaphors, because they involve strong feelings that are nearly universal. I have tried to stay away from using those metaphors here, for all of the obvious reasons. But a rather innocent metaphor brought in the writings of Rabbi Dov Ber Schneuri is the metaphor of the husband and the wife telling each other how much they love one another. Fairly soon, this sappy scene cannot be contained in words anymore. Kissing is therefore “higher” than words, because a kiss sends a message of love and trust that words cannot. A husband therefore might buy flowers for his wife, not just because women like flowers (by the way, women tend to like flowers… I don’t know what the rules of the Singles Ward are, but this is something men should be told), but also because the flowers symbolize something much bigger than the $35.00 you just put out for roses and baby’s breath. Even the words “I love you” are powerless to evoke the kind of emotions that a dozen roses can sometimes produce.

Rebbe Nachman’s power is that he is able to produce vivid metaphors. His weakness is that he does not explain the metaphors, but rather relies upon his students’ creativity to put the pieces together. This is not my approach, so I will offer some explanations. But I will try to keep them to a minimum in order to preserve the original quality of Likutei Mohara’’n. For those who are interested, the Torah I’m going to be paraphrasing is Torah 64. I'm leaving a good deal out. And don't tell me I didn't warn you... its cryptic. (My explanations are in parenthesis).
-continued-

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund, 02 March 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[volgadon]

He probably won't be posting until Sunday or Monday, I think, but fun idea for a thread, Wade.
I have the ideas and material for at least 10 papers on Mormonism, Kabbalah and Hasidism, if I ever get round to it.

Edited by volgadon, 02 March 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[wenglund]

Here is the second part of the post:


G-d, due to his mercy, created the world, because he wanted to reveal his mercy. If he had not created the world, he would not have been able to reveal his mercy – for to whom would he reveal it? So he created the world(s) from the very first issuance down to the central point of the physical world, in order to reveal his mercy. But when G-d wanted to create the world, there was no room to do so, because G-d was infinite [and took up all of the space]. Therefore, he contracted His light to the sides, and through this contraction created an empty space. Within that space, he created days and attributes, that constituted the creation of the world, as it is written in the beginning of Eitz Chaim. This contraction, however, is totally impossible to understand, until the future (ie, the coming of the Messiah), because it is a composite of two opposite things: Existence, and Nonexistence (lit. Yesh and Ayin, Something and Nothing). That is, the empty space, being a product of the contraction, in which G-d contracted himself from there, is seemingly a place devoid of G-d. But, in truth, even though that is the case, it is also true that G-d is present there, because truly there is no place devoid of Him, and He is everything. This will not be understood until the future.

(Ok, much could be said about the contraction. Its written about extensively. I’m not going to explain it now, however, because Rebbe Nachman’s taking care of it. If you’ve followed this far, please just continue following.)

Now there are two different kinds of heretics (apikorsim). The first kind is a heretic due to external influences (lit. external wisdoms) – and it is important to know what to respond to them, like it says in Pirkei Avot. These heretics’ concerns can be answered. They are only heretics due to their external influences, which come from excesses due to the shattering of the vessels. (Ok, time out. Shattering of the vessels refers to a stage in the creation of the world that is, so to speak, well after the “contraction.” The simple – and therefore inadequate – explanation is that G-d began creation by pouring an awesome effluence of light into vessels that were too weak to contain the light, causing them to shatter. The broken pieces fell into the world, and became the world’s excesses – that is, aspects of the world that seem particularly meaningless or even evil due to the greatness of G-d’s concealment. Once these broken vessels are repaired (“Tikkun”), the world will be whole. The deeper explanation reveals that the “shattering” really refers to the lack of perception and insight on our part. If we can repair our own shattered perception (the vessels through which we perceive the light of G-d in the world), we will see how the world already is whole, and how it always was whole. This is probably the pithiest explanation of the shattering of the vessels you’ll ever see. The point Rebbe Nachman is bringing out is that since the “shattering” was caused by a lack of perception, all that is required in order to harmonize the chaos is to add in information and wisdom or insight. Therefore, it is possible to answer these “heretics’” concerns.)

However, there is another type of heretic – one whose wisdom is not wisdom at all (that is, not even “external wisdom”). However, since their “wisdoms” seem sophisticated, they are viewed incorrectly as being wise. This is like one who concocts a whole convoluted understanding in a Torah subject, and due to his sophistication he is able to pull the wool over the eyes of those who do not know better. There are countless questions that philosopher consider that truly are not wise questions at all. In truth, they are corrupt from their core – human wisdom, however, has no answer to their questions – so they seem wise. This is because their questions come from the empty space. Just like it is impossible to find G-d, so to speak, in the empty space, so too it is impossible to answer these heretics’ questions – otherwise, the empty space would not be empty. (Confused yet? The idea here is that since certain questions are really outside of the realm of logic – essential questions of faith, for example – it makes no sense to apply human wisdom to them. These questions touch upon the heart of the disconnect between this world of lies, and the truth of G-d.) About these heretics, it is said “none who go to her return.” Proverbs, 2:19. Return can also mean “answer.” In other words, there is no answer to their strange questions.

It comes out that the empty space surrounds the world (which was created, so to speak, within it); and G-d transcends the empty space. Therefore, we say that while he fills creation – which occurs inside the empty space – he transcends the empty space. Therefore, all that is necessary is to have faith that since G-d Himself created the empty space, that it is totally filled with his transcendent essence – just that we don’t understand Him, and His works. (This part is supposed to be confusing – he is, admittedly, discussing something that he keeps on reminding us cannot be directly discussed).

However, if there is a great and righteous person, like Moses, he will be able to see inside the latter heresy. Even though their questions cannot be answered, as such, the righteous person through his delving into these matters can nonetheless save countless souls who have been trapped inside these heresies’ grasps. The answers to their questions are silence, for there are no answers – there are no words that can answer them. And the world was created through G-d’s words, His speech. In speech, there is wisdom; and through G-d’s speech, the whole world, and all of its details, were created – like it says “Everything was made with wisdom.” Psalms 104. And “With the words of G-d’s lips, the heavens were created.” Psalms 33. But words are limited, since they exist within the world. The empty space is outside of the world. It is empty of everything (seemingly). It has beyond speech – even intellect that is higher than speech; and so, the confusion that emanates from there is silence.

Thus it states in the Talmud, tractate Menachot: “G-d showed Moses the death of Rabbi Akiva (who was tortured to death by the Romans). Moses asked ‘this is your Torah? This is your reward?’ G-d answered, ‘Silence! So it arose in my thought.’”

In other words, for such questions and confusions, you must simply be quiet. Do not ask, and to not answer. This simply “arose in G-d’s thought,” thought being higher than speech. (And here, speech means logic. Logic can be expressed verbally, thought that cannot be expressed verbally is higher than logic.)

(I’m going to skip a whole section (section 4) and move to section 5.)

Now understand, that through the righteous one’s (ie, Moses’s) song, the souls of these heretics can be raised even from the empty space. Every wisdom and idea in this world has its song, and the wisdom comes from the song. Like it says in the Talmud tractate Chagigah: “Acher (that is, Elisha ben Avuya, a heretic), what was in him? (ie, what was wrong with him? Why did he become a heretic?) Greek songs never left his lips. When he stood up to leave the house of learning, heretical books fell out of his clothing.” The one flows from the other: Since Greek songs never left his mouth, heretical books fell from him.

This notion, that each idea has its song, holds true into the highest heights, into the creation itself, and beyond the creation, into the transcendent light that surrounds and transcends the empty space. For while even there, there is wisdom, it is not a wisdom that we can ever understand. Rather, we can only have faith in it – that the Infinite One transcends the worlds, and surrounds them. Faith, too, has a song; and since the wisdom that it expresses is higher than other wisdoms, the song is therefore higher than other songs; and all songs, in essence, stem from this song of faith. In the future, in the times of the Messiah, the nations will be turned towards a clear language, to call out together in the name of G-d (Zaphaniah Chapter 3), all will believe in G-d, and the verse will come true: Come, you will look from the peak of Amanah (Amanah is almost the same word as Emunah, which means faith), that is, from the highest of all faith. (The word here rendered “you shall look” also looks similar to the word “you shall sing,”) And “you shall look/sing” is precisely that: the song of faith, that comes from the righteous one who lifts others through silence.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

volgadon, on 02 March 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

He probably won't be posting until Sunday or Monday, I think, but fun idea for a thread, Wade.
I have the ideas and material for at least 10 papers on Mormonism, Kabbalah and Hasidism, if I ever get round to it.

Fantastic! I think there is great potential here for shared enlightenment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CA Steve]

volgadon, on 02 March 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

He probably won't be posting until Sunday or Monday, I think, but fun idea for a thread, Wade.
I have the ideas and material for at least 10 papers on Mormonism, Kabbalah and Hasidism, if I ever get round to it.

Volgadon, or any one else that would like to reply, would you mind giving a brief description, if such is even possible, of the following terms or links to where one might look for more basic information on them.

Thanks

Kabbalah
Hermeticism
Rosicrucian
Hasidism

Edited by CA Steve, 02 March 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[wenglund]

DubaDNura, on 02 March 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Rebbe Nachman’s power is that he is able to produce vivid metaphors. His weakness is that he does not explain the metaphors, but rather relies upon his students’ creativity to put the pieces together.

To me, the benefits of leaving metaphors unexplained is that it causes students like myself to give the metaphors more in-depth thought than we might give were we spoon-fed the explanations. We may understand the metaphor better, and our understanding may be more meaningful to us, when we are caused to cognitively struggle to figure the metaphors out.  I believe this may be, in part, why the scriptures are written in the somewhat vague, nuanced, and fragmentary way. God wants us to intently ponder his word and delve deep therein to uncover the treasure trove of mysteries. As I see it, this is why Christ often spoke in parables.

Besides, as you intimated, explanatory words may not be entirely adequate to convey the full meaning of the metaphors, and some of the layers of meaning may get lost in the explanation, and not be found because of the explanation.

However, some students, like me, are mere babes when it comes to our spiritual development and our grasp of the figurative, and so, in the wisdom of God, we may need some measure of explanation as help and support providing enough of a footing upon which our basic understanding may stand.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[HiJolly]

CA Steve, on 02 March 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Volgadon, or any one else that would like to reply, would you mind giving a brief description, if such is even possible, of the following terms or links to where one might look for more basic information on them.

Thanks

Kabbalah
Hermeticism
Rosicrucian
Hasidism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Hermeticism

http://en.wikipedia..../Rosicrucianism

http://en.wikipedia....Hasidic_Judaism


HiJolly

[wenglund]

wenglund, on 02 March 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

Here is the second part of the post:


G-d, due to his mercy, created the world, because he wanted to reveal his mercy. If he had not created the world, he would not have been able to reveal his mercy – for to whom would he reveal it? So he created the world(s) from the very first issuance down to the central point of the physical world, in order to reveal his mercy. But when G-d wanted to create the world, there was no room to do so, because G-d was infinite [and took up all of the space]. Therefore, he contracted His light to the sides, and through this contraction created an empty space. Within that space, he created days and attributes, that constituted the creation of the world, as it is written in the beginning of Eitz Chaim. This contraction, however, is totally impossible to understand, until the future (ie, the coming of the Messiah), because it is a composite of two opposite things: Existence, and Nonexistence (lit. Yesh and Ayin, Something and Nothing). That is, the empty space, being a product of the contraction, in which G-d contracted himself from there, is seemingly a place devoid of G-d. But, in truth, even though that is the case, it is also true that G-d is present there, because truly there is no place devoid of Him, and He is everything. This will not be understood until the future.

We LDS believe that the "future" mentioned in your comments is now in the distant past. We believe that the Messiah already came, and in connection with what you said above, "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." (Jn 1:5)

In a way, we now understand the "contraction." We have a sense for how, in one way, there is an "empty space" devoid of God, yet in another sense, God is there. To the blind, light may be all around them, but because they cannot see, then, for them, the light is not there, just darkness or emptiness.

This notion is significantly tied to the temple motif, particularly "the Veil," which we believe was wrent upon the death and resurrection of Christ, but I won't go into that now (particularly since there are other participants here far more knowledgeable on this topic).

Fun stuff, though.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[HiJolly]

Kabbalah is very interesting!  

I am a Mystic Mormon.


HiJolly

[wenglund]

HiJolly, on 02 March 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Kabbalah is very interesting!  

I am a Mystic Mormon.


HiJolly

Please tell us about the flower at the center of your graphic.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[HiJolly]

wenglund, on 02 March 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Please tell us about the flower at the center of your graphic.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It is the Rose of Sharon (see Song of Songs in the Old Testament, which is a VERY mystical writing).  In the Western Mystery tradition, and especially in rosicrucianism (Rosy Cross) where the Rose = Christ, there is much lore.  Freemasonry also.


HiJolly

[wenglund]

HiJolly, on 02 March 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

It is the Rose of Sharon (see Song of Songs in the Old Testament, which is a VERY mystical writing).  In the Western Mystery tradition, and especially in rosicrucianism (Rosy Cross) where the Rose = Christ, there is much lore.  Freemasonry also. HiJolly

To me, it is also akin to the lily, and as a feminine metaphor it may represent the Church or the temple or creation

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund, 02 March 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[HiJolly]

wenglund, on 02 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

To me, it is also akin to the lily, and as a feminine metaphor it may represent the Church or the temple or creation

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yep.  Song of Songs speaks of both the rose and the lily.

HiJolly

[volgadon]

Quote

CA Steve, on 02 March 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Volgadon, or any one else that would like to reply, would you mind giving a brief description, if such is even possible, of the following terms or links to where one might look for more basic information on them.

Thanks

Kabbalah
Hermeticism
Rosicrucian
Hasidism

I'm not a great expert on the European secret societies and theosophical movements, though I've read a bit. Mike Reed would be a good person to ask regarding them. This (and the book mentioned there) is a useful introduction. http://www.amsterdam...sotericism.html
http://www.amsterdam...f-currents.html

Duba D'Nura will have more to say on the topic, but the bare bones are as follows. The Hasidic movement originated in 18th c. Ukraine, spreading throughout Eastern Europe and beyond. It was spread by disciples of R. Israel ben Eliezer, the Baal Shem Tov or Besht, as he is known. He was a healer, miracle-worker and teacher who espoused a particular approach towards Kabbalah, ethics, ritual and prayer. One of the salient points of Hasidism is the idea of the Tzaddik, a holy man able to draw his Hasidim up spiritually and draw down blessings from Heaven. There is quite a bit more though than my brief generalisations that could be said.

[volgadon]

HiJolly, on 02 March 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

It is the Rose of Sharon (see Song of Songs in the Old Testament, which is a VERY mystical writing).  In the Western Mystery tradition, and especially in rosicrucianism (Rosy Cross) where the Rose = Christ, there is much lore.  Freemasonry also.


HiJolly

Which rose draws heavily upon kabbalistic traditions.

[volgadon]

A couple of the Besht's teachings had particularly wide appeal. There were groups studying Kabalah, but they had long been associated with very stringent aesceticism. The Besht marginalised that aspect, meaning that you didn't necessarily have to fast from one Sabbath to the next, or otherwise mortify the flesh. Naturally, this widenedthe circle of participants. The other teaching involved the Hebrew letters. He reemphasised the idea of attaching one's self to the mystic, inner meaning of the Hebrew letters since they have power in and of themselves. It didn't matter how well you knew Hebrew. This appealed both to those who were educated and especially to those who weren't, providing extra meaning to prayer.

[wenglund]

volgadon, on 02 March 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

The other teaching involved the Hebrew letters. He reemphasised the idea of attaching one's self to the mystic, inner meaning of the Hebrew letters since they have power in and of themselves. It didn't matter how well you knew Hebrew. This appealed both to those who were educated and especially to those who weren't, providing extra meaning to prayer.

Speaking of which, and in relation to the discussion earlier, here is an interesting Kabbalistic take on the Hebrew letters for the word "lily"

http://www.returning...net/TheLily.pdf

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[volgadon]

http://www.chabad.or...at-Harivash.htm
Here is a document actually written by the Besht.

[wenglund]

Getting back to comparing Kabbalah with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Duba mentioned this Kabbalistic belief:

Quote

But when G-d wanted to create the world, there was no room to do so, because G-d was infinite [and took up all of the space]. Therefore, he contracted His light to the sides, and through this contraction created an empty space. Within that space, he created days and attributes, that constituted the creation of the world, as it is written in the beginning of Eitz Chaim.

Although we LDS believe in an anthropomorphic God, we also believe the scriptures that speak of God as being infinite and everywhere present.

One might well ask, how do we reconcile these two seemingly contradictory concepts--God being both finite and infinite?

Well, this is explained, metaphorically, in the creation narrative, when it states: "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night..." (Gen. 1:16)

As you may recall, light was separated from darkness, or as Duba explained, the light was "contracted" to form the "empty space," heaven made way for earth. The light that rules the day, or in other words, the light that rules in heaven, the dwelling place of God, is the greater light we call the sun. The sun has a body of limited size, yet its light shines forth to fill the infinite expanse of the universe. To my way of thinking, the same is true for God--his light and spirit shine forth from his glorified and resurrected body to fill the expanses of space.

Understanding this may help us to grasp the "contraction," or the separation of light from darkness, heaven from earth, particularly the seemingly contradictory notion of God not being a part of the "empty space," but yet he is a part of "empty space"--he is present on earth.

How?

Well, again this may be explained, metaphorically, in the creation narrative. What is the greater light that rules the night?

The moon.

And, where does the moon get its light? From the sun.

So, even though the sun and its light aren't directly present during the night (or on earth), it is indirectly present by way of the moon.

If we consider God the Father to be symbolically represented by the sun, and God the Son to by symbolically represented by the moon, then this may bring a number of spiritually enlightening points to our understanding, not the least of which is that the Father is made present on earth by way of the Son.

I find this to be quite delicious.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund, 02 March 2012 - 04:23 PM.