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When Mormons Intrude On Jewish Practices: We Can Apologize For Our Actions, But Not Our Beliefs.


Bill “Papa” Lee

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I didn't read the article, or half the posts, but unless this was in the 80s the claim that they offered Hebrew copies of The Book of Mormon is dubious.

Well, he says that happened when he was a teenager. It may be somewhat overdrawn, but probably something like that happened if he went to a Visitors' Centre.

Regards,

Pahoran

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LDS seem to cling to the notion that they wouldn't care if another group, posthumously or by proxy, does something for them. They would welcome the intentions.

The problem is that no other faith does this so I'm at a lost why LDS members would welcome something that isn't happening. :nea: This only becomes valid once it actually happens and seems to be a bit of an empty welcoming that's purely speculative IMHO.

Hmmm... my Aunt keeps lighting Votive candels for me.

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So lighting Votive candles is equal to performing as ordinance? ...... :rolleyes:

Is not the motivation for both practices the same? It comes out of a deep concern for the loved one, and asks God to intercede for said loved one and to save them. :rolleyes: indeed!?

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Is not the motivation for both practices the same? It comes out of a deep concern for the loved one, and asks God to intercede for said loved one and to save them. :rolleyes: indeed!?

Someone saying a prayer is not the same as performing an ordinance (in this case - baptism)

The definition of a sacrament (ordinance) in the RCC is 'an outward sign, instituted by Christ to give grace'

a person lighting a votive candle and saying a prayer does not equal the LDS practice of proxy baptisms since that IS considered an ordinance.

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Someone saying a prayer is not the same as performing an ordinance (in this case - baptism)

The definition of a sacrament (ordinance) in the RCC is 'an outward sign, instituted by Christ to give grace'

a person lighting a votive candle and saying a prayer does not equal the LDS practice of proxy baptisms since that IS considered an ordinance.

Prayer not an "Ordinance"? Since when?

General definitions and terms

Hexam's Concise Dictionary of Religion calls a sacrament "a Rite in which GOD (or Gods) is (are) uniquely active".[1] But within Christianity the word is used in a more restricted sense.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines the sacraments as "efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions."[2] The catechism included in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer defines a sacrament as "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given unto us, ordained by Christ himself, as a means whereby we receive the same, and a pledge to assure us thereof."

Some Protestant traditions avoid the word "sacrament". Reaction against the 19th-century Oxford Movement led Baptists to prefer instead the word "ordinance",[3] practices ordained by Christ to be permanently observed by the church. "Sacrament" stresses mainly, but not solely, what God does, "ordinance" what the Christians do.[4]

Thomas Goodwin from Oxford beleives prayer to be an ordinance.

"So prayer now is a continual ordinance ; ' pray continually,' which is not meant of continual occasions, but that a continual course of prayer, or a set course every ..."

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If lighting a candle isn't an outward expression of faith why is it done?

Why do you have a picture of your loved ones? It's to focus your thoughts.

The candle serves the same purpose. There are 7 sacraments (ordinances) performed in the RCC. While prayer is involved in all of them, prayer itself is not a sacrament.

An outward sign is something physical.

The outward sign for baptism = water

The outward sign for marriage = rings

etc, etc.

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Prayer not an "Ordinance"? Since when?

Thomas Goodwin from Oxford beleives prayer to be an ordinance.

"So prayer now is a continual ordinance ; ' pray continually,' which is not meant of continual occasions, but that a continual course of prayer, or a set course every ..."

Thank you for quoting the catechism. I would have highlighted this part

an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given unto us

Prayer is not a 'visible' (physical) sign

.

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Excuss the Wiki link:

A votive candle or prayer candle is a small candle, typically white or beeswax yellow, intended to be burnt as a votive offering in a religious ceremony.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Votive_candle

While the votive candle 'can' be part of a religious ceremony, IT IS NOT the outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. Each of the 7 Sacraments has a specific 'outward sign.' I promise that a votive candle IS NOT any of those specific signs for the 7 Sacraments of the RCC.

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While the votive candle 'can' be part of a religious ceremony, IT IS NOT the outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. Each of the 7 Sacraments has a specific 'outward sign.' I promise that a votive candle IS NOT any of those specific signs for the 7 Sacraments of the RCC.

So should I be offended because my Aunt performs a "religious ceremony" for me in a religion I do not beleive in, when she goes to mass?

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So should I be offended because my Aunt performs a "religious ceremony" for me in a religion I do not beleive in, when she goes to mass?

So prayer now equals a 'religious ceremony'................oh my.

LDS are performing an actual ordinance, while Catholics are not performing one. All Christians pray, why should anyone take offense.

Some people take offense at your ordinance you physically perform. IMO, they shouldn't.

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So prayer now equals a 'religious ceremony'................oh my.

LDS are performing an actual ordinance, while Catholics are not performing one. All Christians pray, why should anyone take offense.

Some people take offense at your ordinance you physically perform. IMO, they shouldn't.

Well lets see... what is the motivation behind the "Christian Prayer" and Votive candles?

Who are the Souls in Purgatory?

The Souls in Purgatory are the souls of those who died in the state of grace (i.e. as God's friends), but who are not yet cleansed enough from sin to enter Heaven. When we are sorry for our sins and confess them, God joyfully forgives us. However, each sin wounds our soul, and the damage remains even after it is forgiven. Souls who neglect to repair this spiritual damage, by doing penance, are not ready for Heaven when they die, even if they don't deserve to go to hell. So God in His mercy allows them to spend time suffering in Purgatory, in atonement for their sins before entering Heaven. The Souls in Purgatory are part of the Communion of Saints (they are sometimes referred to as "The Church Suffering"), and we have the obligation as Catholics to pray for their speedy release from Purgatory.

http://www.catholicy...atory/index.htm

Its the exact same motivation with different outward signs.

Mormons take Christ at his word when he says "unless ye are born of water and spirit" as releasing these souls from prugatory. At least we use the exact same outward sign Christ did

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So should I be offended because my Aunt performs a "religious ceremony" for me in a religion I do not beleive in, when she goes to mass?

Catholics do pray for the dead and believe purgatory (that one can be released) , their beliefs match our own...we just attach a physical ordinance to ours.

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Well lets see... what is the motivation behind the "Christian Prayer" and Votive candles?

http://www.catholicy...atory/index.htm

Its the exact same motivation with different outward signs.

Mormons take Christ at his word when he says "unless ye are born of water and spirit" as releasing these souls from prugatory. At least we use the exact same outward sign Christ did

But Catholics ARE NOT performing a Sacrament since there is no 'outward (physical) sign'. There's only 7 Sacraments and all of them are listed in the Catechism. Care to point me in the direction of this 'Sacrament?'

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Someone saying a prayer is not the same as performing an ordinance (in this case - baptism)

The definition of a sacrament (ordinance) in the RCC is 'an outward sign, instituted by Christ to give grace'

a person lighting a votive candle and saying a prayer does not equal the LDS practice of proxy baptisms since that IS considered an ordinance.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t the definition of the word “sacrament” in the RCC include the requirement that the person concerned (or in the case of an infant, someone authorized to speak on his behalf) voluntarily accepts it as such?

Since nobody, LDS or otherwise, claims that anyone has the right to accept a proxy baptism on behalf of anyone else, wouldn’t LDS proxy baptisms be more properly considered a religious ceremony or ritual, unless the deceased accepts it?

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That's not in the definition of a Sacrament. In the case of infant baptisms, the godparents are accepting the sacrament that leaves an

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.84 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.85

<a href="javascript:openWindow('cr/1274.htm');">1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."86 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

Obviously, the baptised individual may choose not to further their blessings that come from baptism, but that's their choice.

This is why I didn't have any issues with my daughter choosing to get baptized in a non-denominational church later. It didn't change the RCC's viewpoint but it's up to the individual to make the intentions blossom or not.

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This is why I didn't have any issues with my daughter choosing to get baptized in a non-denominational church later. It didn't change the RCC's viewpoint but it's up to the individual to make the intentions blossom or not.

Which differs in no material way from what we teach about baptisms for the dead.

Lehi

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Which differs in no material way from what we teach about baptisms for the dead.

Lehi

There's an old saying "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic." I know LDS do not follow this line of thought in regards to the practice of proxy baptisms.

I have no problem with you performing the ordinance.

There's those that try to compare it to Catholics praying for those in purgatory though. There's no sacrament being performed. Sacraments are for the living.

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There's an old saying "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic." I know LDS do not follow this line of thought in regards to the practice of proxy baptisms.

I have no problem with you performing the ordinance.

There's those that try to compare it to Catholics praying for those in purgatory though. There's no sacrament being performed. Sacraments are for the living.

Christ performed the ultimate "sacrament" and it was for both the Living and the dead.

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Christ performed the ultimate "sacrament" and it was for both the Living and the dead.

Agreed.

I'm just stating a fundamental difference between your church performing 'ordinances' and mine performing 'sacraments' in regards to the dead.

Question - Since your Catholic aunt is 'praying' for you, are you a convert? That would explain her 'intentions.' :)

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Catholics do pray for the dead and believe purgatory (that one can be released) , their beliefs match our own...

Not quite, but I suspect blueadept will have corrected you on this one so I won't.

Oops, I see that he didn't. I believe he mentioned before that praying for the dead only 'speeds' up the process, it doesn't change the person's ultimate destination or shut it down if it doesn't get done. It is not a requirement like LDS view baptism so I don't see it 'matching' beyond the fact that Catholics believe their prayers can have an impact on the dead and LDS believe their ordinances can have an impact on the dead.

I do think LDS tend to have a broader definition of "ordinance" than Catholics do, especially at times on a personal level. I know LDS who see pretty much anything done in the name of the Lord, including prayer, as something of an ordinance, others that have seen anything done through the Priesthood.

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