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Bernard Gui

What Is The Veil?

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In the Book of Ether, chapters 3 and 12. we read the account of the brother of Jared who saw the pre-mortal Christ. Because of his faith, he could not be kept beyond the "veil." What Is this veil and is it a uniquely LDS belief? Is Luke 24:32-32 about the veil? There some disciples' eyes were opened so that they recognized the Lord.

Bernard

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I don't believe it is, uniquely, LDS. The veil is that which separates us from God. It can be anything that separates us...anything upon which we primarily focus (materialism, desires, etc)...anything that becomes more important than God.

Edited by Libs

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Libs:

Not necessarily. Everyone that comes to this earth has a Veil of Forgetfullness. That veil is not more important than God. It allows this life to be a fair test.

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In the Book of Ether, chapters 3 and 12. we read the account of the brother of Jared who saw the pre-mortal Christ. Because of his faith, he could not be kept beyond the "veil." What Is this veil and is it a uniquely LDS belief? Is Luke 24:32-32 about the veil? There some disciples' eyes were opened so that they recognized the Lord.

Bernard

As a consequence of the Fall, all mankind are said to be "spiritually dead," and shut out from the presence of God, meaning that they cannot see or know Him directly, and for the most part they are even oblivious to His existence:

2 Nephi 9:

6 For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord.

Alma 42:

7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.

Helaman 14:

16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.

D&C 29:

41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he [Adam] should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, . . .

Moses 5:

4 And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord from the way toward the Garden of Eden, speaking unto them, and they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence.

That is what is meant by the “veil” in those verses you were referring to in the Book of Ether, as the context demonstrates:

Ether 3:

6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

* * *

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

Thus the veil is that which separates us form the presence of God as a result of the Fall, the removal of which brings them back once again into His presence.

Edited by zerinus

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Recall that in the Temple the Veil is pierced as per Isaiah 25:6-8

6 ¶And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

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In Isaiah 6, we see the seraphim surrounding God's throne as having wings. Those wings were actually coverings or veils. The ones covering their faces were to keep them from directly looking at God's glory. The wings or veils on their "feet" is an interesting thing. "Feet" is actually an ancient Hebrew metaphor for loins. So their loins were covered, similar to Adam and Eve covering themselves with fig leaves after they fell. And Ruth may not have actually slept at Boaz' feet.

These coverings were to ensure they could bear the glory of God, covering their sins, etc. The veil we have in the temple also represents our separation from God, our not being worthy to be in his presence. The temple metaphorically teaches that the atonement of Christ makes us worthy to enter through the veil and into God's presence.

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The "veil" is something spiritual and material alike. That is is further and beyond our physical dimensions (4 ones?, We usually reasoned in mortality, as having length, width, height and "mortality time"), since relativity physics.

In fact we have another "dimension" to live in, since Kolob. That is spiritual time as part of the other side of our time and of the veil.

Thus our mortal time from "veil" detaches and separates from our whole spiritual time, We can't see and remember about what took and takes place in the other side of the space limited by the "spiritual veil or curtain".

Or even we can't feel or describe, except in very few exceptions, about what is going on in the spiritual time side and measured and dated in the scale of spiritual Lord's events. Quite like in Kolob time scale in Lord's time linking to our time, "trough the veil".

We only can see and reason about what is going in the other side of veil, if "allowed" by the Lord. Our side is the mortality, in our side of the "veil or curtain". Thus the veil Temple is just alike "symbolism". As in Jerusalem when an Angel appeared to announce important things. As if from spiritual and sacred side of the "veil" over Temple physical cloth curtain and also over a "smoke" = burned incense, symbolism of "spiritual veil, curtain". Those are the Veils that Zachariah saw and from the smoke "veil" received the revelation from the "angel" through the "veil". He didn't enter into the most sacred for the revelation.

Veil or sacred curtain separates the time: the one in which we are living in the mortality time which do not measure the same as Lord's time scale value, to those of Lord's environment and scale. Time for Zachariah receive that quite short message, from spiritual side of the "veil", appeared quite "long", for those living.in the mortality side of the veil.

This is a speculation about "veil".

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Ignorance can be a veil. Lack of authority can be a veil, anything ubiquitous that we cannot necessarily see or feel the effects of can act as a veil.

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Recall that in the Temple the Veil is pierced as per Isaiah 25:6-8

The veil in the temple represents the flesh of Christ:

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Hebrews 10:19-20

So since the veil was rent by Christ's death, it is symbolically repaired by his resurrection and thus is the "new and living way" and also signifies a change in the ordinances.

Not sure what the connection is between that veil and the veil over our minds and eyes other than perhaps the Atonment allows us to pierce it.

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The veil in the temple represents the flesh of Christ:

So since the veil was rent by Christ's death, it is symbolically repaired by his resurrection and thus is the "new and living way" and also signifies a change in the ordinances.

Not sure what the connection is between that veil and the veil over our minds and eyes other than perhaps the Atonment allows us to pierce it.

ooh, good verse!

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Libs:

Not necessarily. Everyone that comes to this earth has a Veil of Forgetfullness. That veil is not more important than God. It allows this life to be a fair test.

I didn't mean that the veil, itself, was more important than God. Basically, I was intending the same thing Jeff said, because I do believe it is ignorance (and sin) that keeps us separated from God.

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The veil in the temple represents the flesh of Christ:

So since the veil was rent by Christ's death, it is symbolically repaired by his resurrection and thus is the "new and living way" and also signifies a change in the ordinances.

Not sure what the connection is between that veil and the veil over our minds and eyes other than perhaps the Atonment allows us to pierce it.

[bolding mine] This was an interesting explanation, BC. Don't think I've ever heard that one.

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I think more than one answer can be given or understood without contradicting other answers or levels. As has been shown by the thoughtful posts thus far.

Right now, my answer as given to me that I am learning from is: the body (and by extension, mortality, but pivoted upon the body).

Hm, also, Ether does say "could not be kept from within the veil" which I am not sure what that phrasing should suggest to me, still learning. But, I've also found this other great scripture that suggests other interesting things: D & C 101:23 "And prepare for the revelation which is to come, when the veil of the covering of my temple, in my tabernacle, which hideth the earth, shall be taken off, and all flesh shall see me together."

Also in D & C 110:1 "The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened."

So I think the scriptures also use the idea of 'veil' in different ways. But there's actually quite a bit in the scriptures to enjoy studying and pondering upon until you get your understanding.

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I went online to the church’s web site (http://lds.org/manual?lang=eng -> Seminary) and

found the New Testament Student Study Guide and the New Testament Teacher Study

Guide. Looking at the section for Hebrews chapters 7-10, I was not able to find the word

“veil.” The significance of the tearing of the temple veil was not there or in the Book of

Mormon either. I did a search for “temple veil” at www.lds.org and found 3 mentions (only

1 relevant).

http://lds.org/ensig...2temple+veil%22

“This takes us back to the kapporet, for only the high priest knew the name which he whispered

for admission through the temple veil on the Day of Atonement.”

“It is understandable that the kapporet should be called the mercy seat, for it was there, in the

most guarded and sacred part of the sanctuary, that Israel was reconciled at-one with God on

the Day of Atonement: “And after the second veil, the tabernacle [succoth, booth, tent] which

is called the Holiest of all … [contained] the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of

which we cannot now speak particularly.” Thus said Paul to the Hebrews. (Heb. 9:3, 5.)”

“The sense of distinction between the earthly and heavenly [was] still kept.” Even more

important than the idea that the veil introduces us into another realm is that “the curtains

have also the value of suggesting the curtain in the Temple which separated the sanctuary

from the world of ordinary life.”

These 3 quotes also missed the significance as taught by the Bible.

There is a video called “Between Heaven and Earth.” This had a very brief mention of the

veil tearing.

I will quote the words of the speakers. The discussion began at about the 12:13 mark.

What do they say is the significance?

Boyd K. Packer (Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) – “When Christ was crucified that veil was

rent ... meaning symbolically that he had passed through the veil.”

I would have liked to hear him say more.

Next comes Jeffrey R. Holland (Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) - 12:35 – “Whatever used

to be is gone. Whatever was has been rent asunder. The old law, as valuable as it was, as

important as it was, ... was now fulfilled.”

He’s getting closer.

Next comes Dean L. Larsen - a Temple Presidents - 12:53 – “The rending of the veil in the

temple, it seems to me, was symbolic of that barrier between mortality and eternal life being

broken forever. And the freedom and the opportunity given to all mankind now to pass

through that veil and return to the presence of God.”

He sort of gets it but he misses an important part.

The Bible describes it more fully.

“Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle,

accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every

year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The

Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest,

while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present,

in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service

perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers

washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ

being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle,

not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and

calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal

redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer

sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the

blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge

your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the

mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the

transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the

promise of eternal inheritance” (Hebrews 9:6-15).

“Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place

every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation

of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the

sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall

he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (Hebrews 9:25-28).

“And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices,

which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins

for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” (Hebrews 10:11-12). “For by one offering he

hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness

to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after

those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write

them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these

is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the

holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us,

through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God;

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled

from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water” (Hebrews 10:14-22).

In the Old Testament the people had to go through the priest and the temple for salvation.

And only the high priest was able to go into the Holiest of Holies once a year. Females

were not allowed to enter. But with the tearing of the temple veil, Christ has opened the

way for us (both males and females) to enter God's presence (the Holiest of Holies) through

the atonement. This is because Jesus has made these males and females members of the

royal priesthood of God through faith in him.

Jesus is our one and only high priest. He has opened the way so that we do not need earthly

priests and temples to approach God.

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I went online to the church’s web site (http://lds.org/manual?lang=eng -> Seminary) and found the New Testament Student Study Guide and the New Testament Teacher Study Guide. Looking at the section for Hebrews chapters 7-10, I was not able to find the word “veil.” The significance of the tearing of the temple veil was not there or in the Book of Mormon either. I did a search for “temple veil” at www.lds.org and found 3 mentions (only 1 relevant).

http://lds.org/ensig...2temple+veil%22

“This takes us back to the kapporet, for only the high priest knew the name which he whispered for admission through the temple veil on the Day of Atonement.”

“It is understandable that the kapporet should be called the mercy seat, for it was there, in the most guarded and sacred part of the sanctuary, that Israel was reconciled at-one with God on the Day of Atonement: “And after the second veil, the tabernacle [succoth, booth, tent] which is called the Holiest of all … [contained] the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.” Thus said Paul to the Hebrews. (Heb. 9:3, 5.)”

“The sense of distinction between the earthly and heavenly [was] still kept.” Even more important than the idea that the veil introduces us into another realm is that “the curtains have also the value of suggesting the curtain in the Temple which separated the sanctuary

from the world of ordinary life.”

These 3 quotes also missed the significance as taught by the Bible.

There is a video called “Between Heaven and Earth.” This had a very brief mention of the veil tearing.

I will quote the words of the speakers. The discussion began at about the 12:13 mark.

What do they say is the significance?

Boyd K. Packer (Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) – “When Christ was crucified that veil was rent ... meaning symbolically that he had passed through the veil.”

I would have liked to hear him say more.

Next comes Jeffrey R. Holland (Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) - 12:35 – “Whatever used to be is gone. Whatever was has been rent asunder. The old law, as valuable as it was, as important as it was, ... was now fulfilled.”

He’s getting closer.

Next comes Dean L. Larsen - a Temple Presidents - 12:53 – “The rending of the veil in the temple, it seems to me, was symbolic of that barrier between mortality and eternal life being broken forever. And the freedom and the opportunity given to all mankind now to pass through that veil and return to the presence of God.”

He sort of gets it but he misses an important part.

Oh, this is fun.

A Protestant is going to tell us the "missing part" that the living apostles don't "get" about the Temple, of all things!

What's next, Orion? Want to hold a Q&A session so that you can answer the General Authorities' questions about "Mormonism," like Walter Martin once tried to do?

The Bible describes it more fully.

“Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle,

accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every

year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The

Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest,

while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present,

in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service

perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers

washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ

being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle,

not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and

calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal

redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer

sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the

blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge

your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the

mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the

transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the

promise of eternal inheritance” (Hebrews 9:6-15).

“Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place

every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation

of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the

sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall

he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (Hebrews 9:25-28).

“And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices,

which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins

for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” (Hebrews 10:11-12). “For by one offering he

hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness

to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after

those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write

them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these

is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the

holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us,

through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God;

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled

from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water” (Hebrews 10:14-22).

In the Old Testament the people had to go through the priest and the temple for salvation.

And only the high priest was able to go into the Holiest of Holies once a year. Females

were not allowed to enter. But with the tearing of the temple veil, Christ has opened the

way for us (both males and females) to enter God's presence (the Holiest of Holies) through

the atonement. This is because Jesus has made these males and females members of the

royal priesthood of God through faith in him.

Jesus is our one and only high priest. He has opened the way so that we do not need earthly

priests and temples to approach God.

What?

You mean you went through all of that rigmarole just so you could recite the standard Protestant mantra we've all heard a hundred times?

I have read your prooftexts very carefully. You do realise, don't you, that not one of them actually says "we do not need earthly

priests and temples to approach God?" Or even anything to that effect?

Sure, it says that we don't need sacrifices. But, of course, we knew this already. Did you really think we didn't?

Here's a suggestion, Orion: next time you take it upon yourself to "school" us about something, try to make sure it's a subject you actually know something about. Okay?

Regards,

Pahoran

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Aside from the symbolism of the veil,I believe there is a "physical" barrier between heaven and earth experience.Such a barrier can be parted by our faith.

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we do not need earthly

priests and temples to approach God.

I enjoyed what you shared. I love Hebrews, too. Awesome material.

Without concluding for purposes of my reply whether or not priesthood and temples are needed, nevertheless, this concept or frame you are using is 1) not the LDS frame of priesthood and temples; and 2) in the case of "approaching God" is not a scriptural term, concept or doctrine. Now, I use a lot of those myself and I think they help me in my learning, but I have to take care and realize I am making them up or deriving them. "Approaching God" may be a reasonable derivative from scripture, but it is derivative.

Going back to #1, LDS do not have priesthood and temples as mediations between God and man (except in the case of the Bishop, which might be interesting to get into in another thread). This kind of challenge arose historically towards practices that took place (historically, can't speak to doctrinally) in the Roman Catholic church. It cannot be properly applied to the LDS way of thinking simply because there exist temple and priesthood. First understand the framework, then challenge it. If anything, priesthood and temples are a way LDS experience God unmediated, and their confirmation that such experience is possible and expected.

Also never lose sight of the fact that, again, a glorious eternity is going to be the fate of ALL God's children, according to the LDS, requiring no mediation, sacrament, ordinance, priesthood or temple of any sort (although understood to have been provided freely by the atonement of Christ).

Those persons who undertake covenants and priesthood and their endowments are walking a path specifically to become like their Father in heaven, to become one with him, to become his Sons and his Daughters . . . a very scriptural invitation and concept.

I think the OP was wondering what our experiential veil is (from being human here in mortality), of which the temple veil is only emblematic; if I understood his question.

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Zerinus, is there a Sports Illustrated version?

Yes, there is:

Niqab2.jpg

There is also a space age version:

Niqab3.jpg

And also a protest version:

Niqab5.jpg

Edited by zerinus

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Zerinus,is there a Sports Illustrated version?

Right here:

muslim-woman.jpg

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D'oh, didn't see Zerinus' post. sry for "double" post.

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guitarist,someone needs help with photoshop.Note eyelashes on lower part of eye.

But we digress from OP.

Edited by blackstrap

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