49 replies to this topic

[mfbukowski]

followerofemmanuel, on 14 February 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Great questions!  Why did God create us?  I guess I just always believed for his pleasure (all things created by him and for him).

Nah, that can't be right.  It's too selfish.   It makes us sound like toys to play with!
I do aggree that we are here to grow (through testing/trials and experiences) and learn who our Creator and savior is and to be in fellowship with him.  You'll have to forgive me though, as I am not an apologist for the Christian Evangelical faith, rather this is my humble opion.

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As a believer, I always looked reverently at God as my heavenly father and believed that he created us because he can, becuase he is so unimaginaly creative and on a much larger scale for the reason we have families and create families, out of an expression of love.

Now you're talking!
  I can honestly say that I have never really thought about it other than have the understanding of Gods nature be as partially described above.  I am not aware of any specific doctrine so to speak on this topic, but I am the wrong person to ask.

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As for you second question...wow.  I don't really have any profound thoughts on this other than I believe that God is the same yesturday, today and tomorrow and that I understand that he has always been a creator and holy supreme being.  I have not looked into it any deeper than that.

Maybe you should!

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Where do you get your understanding to this question from, the Book of Mormon?  If so, maybe you can tell me where it is and I can read up on it.  Thanks, good discussion!

Glad you like it!
These are all standard Mormon beliefs- straight out of the missionary discussions and mormon.org and lds.org and Gospel Principles and Preach My Gospel, which is what the missionaries use in their discussions.  Those sources are compilations of Mormon doctrine.

For a quick summary, go to page 48 in the manual quoted here:

http://www.lds.org/l..._36617_eng_.pdf

This will take you to Gospel Principles
http://www.lds.org/m...ciples?lang=eng

[followerofemmanuel]

mfbukowski, on 14 February 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Nah, that can't be right.  It's too selfish.   It makes us sound like toys to play with!
I do aggree that we are here to grow (through testing/trials and experiences) and learn who our Creator and savior is and to be in fellowship with him.  You'll have to forgive me though, as I am not an apologist for the Christian Evangelical faith, rather this is my humble opion.

Now you're talking!
  I can honestly say that I have never really thought about it other than have the understanding of Gods nature be as partially described above.  I am not aware of any specific doctrine so to speak on this topic, but I am the wrong person to ask.

Maybe you should!

Glad you like it!
These are all standard Mormon beliefs- straight out of the missionary discussions and mormon.org and lds.org and Gospel Principles and Preach My Gospel, which is what the missionaries use in their discussions.  Those sources are compilations of Mormon doctrine.

For a quick summary, go to page 48 in the manual quoted here:

http://www.lds.org/l..._36617_eng_.pdf

This will take you to Gospel Principles
http://www.lds.org/m...ciples?lang=eng

Thanks.  I quickly checked out the links.  There seems to be tons of info for me to look through...may take me awhile but I am sure I will get a better understanding of LDS teachings.

[mfbukowski]

Gervin, on 14 February 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

That certainly is a claim but not not supported by what we read in the Bible ... or by what I remember

Well its alluded to in a couple of places- but that just shows that the Bible is incomplete.   If you really want prooftexts I can provide them, but you will just disagree with the interpretation.   What I would ask is why DOESN'T the Bible apparently answer such an important question (according to your interpretation)?

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"Workmanship ... created in Jesus ... to do good works" is a sufficient "why" for me.

Good for you.  Have you tried giving others that answer?  Why should we do good works, especially if we are saved by faith?   We are here to do good works- that is our purpose- but they do not save us?   I don't want to get into the whole faith vs works thing- but it seems that works must be awfully important if that is why we are here.

[mfbukowski]

followerofemmanuel, on 14 February 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Thanks.  I quickly checked out the links.  There seems to be tons of info for me to look through...may take me awhile but I am sure I will get a better understanding of LDS teachings.

Good.   No hurry.

[Vance]

Gervin, on 14 February 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

He didn't make us because he was lonely. Long before we were here, God already had "company" with his Son and the Holy Spirit, referred to in Genesis 1:26, "Let us make man in our own image."

Well, here is the thing.  You are PRESUMING that "Let us make man in our own image" is referring to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, because the context certainly doesn't dictate it.

Now, there is nothing especially wrong with making presumptions based on you overall theological view.  We all have to do such things because the Bible by itself is insufficient in determining the truth.

For example,

Gervin, on 14 February 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

That certainly is a claim but not not supported by what we read in the Bible ... or by what I remember

Well, based upon your theological view that there was no "pre-mortal existence" you obviously wouldn't see it in the text, UNLESS it was explicit, which it isn't.

In the example above, you saw the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in a verse, even though they weren't explicitly in it.

On the other side of the coin, the belief in the "pre-mortal existence" isn't specifically denied by any verse in the Bible either.

So, on this subject, we each see what our overall theological view helps us to see.

For example, I find these verses to support the belief in a "pre-mortal existence"
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
. . .
  14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
  15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
  16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
  17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The "pre-mortal existence" of Christ is something we both believe in.  If Christ was "in all things" "made like unto his brethren" that certainly implies that "his brethren" also had a "pre-mortal existence".

So, to me, these verses support the concept of a "pre-mortal existence" for all mankind.  You, because of your theological view, may not see them that way.

Edited by Vance, 15 February 2012 - 08:48 AM.

[orion88]

I found this on the church's web site:

http://mormon.org/faq/#Purpose+of+Life

"God, your Heavenly Father, has prepared a marvelous plan for your happiness. When
you realize that God has a plan for you, it is easier to understand why you are on this
earth. God wants all of His children to progress and become more like Him. This time on
Earth provides opportunities for you to grow and progress. Coming here allows you to:

• Receive a physical body.
  
• Exercise agency and learn to choose between good and evil.
  
• Learn and gain experience that will help you become more like your Heavenly Father.
  
• Form family relationships that may become eternal.

"By following our Heavenly Father’s plan, you—like all of His children—can someday return
to live with Him and with your loved ones. You can have greater peace in this life and eternal
joy in the life to come."

I would have included two extra things:

"All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become
like him—a god. He has said,“Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the
immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39)." (from Gospel Principles).

and

"Mortality is the testing or proving ground for exaltation to find out who among the children
of God are worthy to become Gods themselves, and the Lord has informed us that few
there be that find it" (from Doctrines of Salvation).

Edited by orion88, 15 February 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[LeSellers]

orion88, on 15 February 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

I found this on the church's web site:

What's your point?

orion88, on 15 February 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

I would have included two extra things:

"All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become
like him—a god. He has said,“Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the
immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39)." (from Gospel Principles).

and

"Mortality is the testing or proving ground for exaltation to find out who among the children
of God are worthy to become Gods themselves, and the Lord has informed us that few
there be that find it" (from Doctrines of Salvation).

What's your point?

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers, 16 February 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[followerofemmanuel]

Interesting article to share with you folks.  This article gives some understanding of the response to Ravi's speak at the Mormon Tabernacle from the evangelical community

Evangelical Defends Decision to Speak at Mormon Tabernacle

"In the 6 weeks since Zacharias and Fuller Seminary President Richard Mouw addressed the Mormon crowd, numerous evangelical Christians raised questions about the reasoning and motive for the gathering. Specifically, they questioned Mouw’s brief statements concerning evangelicals’ treatment of the Mormon community. "We've often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of members of the LDS faith," Mouw was quoted as saying. "It's a terrible thing to bear false witness ... We've told you what you believe without first asking you." Mouw continueed to share... "I remain convinced there are serious issues of difference that are of eternal consequence, but now we can discuss them as friends," Mouw said, according to the Salt Lake City Tribune. "November 14th was the historic moment. The last time an evangelical Christian had spoken there was in 1899 when D.L. Moody spoke. I have to say the entire weekend was one remarkable event after another. I had a personal meeting with the First Presidency. I did open forums at Weber State University and at the University of Utah. The climactic meeting at the Mormon Tabernacle was packed with an overflowing crowd. What a night it was!

Ravi's comments...

From all over the world I have received numerous messages of encouragement and appreciation. Anyone who hears the tape will know the clarity of the message presented. Only the Lord gave such enablement.

To the critics who objected to my being there, I say that all my life as an apologist I have spoken across wide chasms of thought and virtually to every major religious group, sometimes at the risk of threats and violence. Differences ought not to keep us from carrying the truth to everyone. Must we not graciously build one step at a time in communicating our faith with clarity and conviction? Is it really necessary at the early stages of such openness to “dump the whole truckload of goods,” rather than first gaining a hearing and respect? I have no doubts about the differences between the LDS faith and the historic Christian faith, differences that are deep and foundational in terms of authority...  Must not our methods be in keeping with our message?  I must also add that the courtesy and graciousness extended to me by every Mormon leader or professor that I came into contact with cannot be gainsaid. My earnest prayer is that the Lord was honored in what happened and that the opportunities that come from this event will multiply. There is no other name given under heaven whereby we may be saved. How we communicate that name is equally important as the message itself if we are to be persuaders of men and women under the anointing of the Holy Spirit." Ravi Zacharias, By Pauline J. Chang , Christian Post ReporterDecember 28, 2004|4:09 pm

Edited by followerofemmanuel, 16 February 2012 - 10:15 PM.

[Scott Lloyd]

followerofemmanuel, on 13 February 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Thanks for sharing your opion.  I was really hoping for honest dialouge...and you came forward, thank you.  I invested 70 mins as I watched the whole series.  I felt it was a great step towards understanding one another and I was impressed by the LDS church for inviting him.  Ravi gently points out there are differences but also points out the we share the centrality of Christ.

The LDS Church actually didn't "invite" him as such. It was more a matter of the Church making the Tabernacle available as a venue for the organizers of his speaking tour in Utah.

I was there that night as well. It was very much a gathering for Evangelicals; very few Mormons in attendance that I could see. Robert Millet of BYU was on the rostrum and spoke to the congregation because of his work with Standing Together Ministries, but I don't recall what other Mormons, if any, were up there.

I covered the event for the LDS Church News. My coverage -- and by extension, the Church itself -- was criticized by a local Evangelical pastor, a vocal critic of Mormonism. His perception was that my story made more out of Mouw's apology to the Mormon people for Evangelicals having "borne false witness" against them than it did about Zacharias's sermon. My defense is that our publication is directed to an LDS readership and that I emphasized what, in my professional judgment, was most interesting to that readership.

Add-on: I found a link to my story. I recall now that Elder Bruce D. Porter of the Seventy was on the rostrum but did not speak. Here's the link:

http://www.ldschurch...Tabernacle.html

Edited by Scott Lloyd, 20 February 2012 - 07:09 AM.

[followerofemmanuel]

Scott Lloyd, on 20 February 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

The LDS Church actually didn't "invite" him as such. It was more a matter of the Church making the Tabernacle available as a venue for the organizers of his speaking tour in Utah.

I was there that night as well. It was very much a gathering for Evangelicals; very few Mormons in attendance that I could see. Robert Millet of BYU was on the rostrum and spoke to the congregation because of his work with Standing Together Ministries, but I don't recall what other Mormons, if any, were up there.

I covered the event for the LDS Church News. My coverage -- and by extension, the Church itself -- was criticized by a local Evangelical pastor, a vocal critic of Mormonism. His perception was that my story made more out of Mouw's apology to the Mormon people for Evangelicals having "borne false witness" against them than it did about Zacharias's sermon. My defense is that our publication is directed to an LDS readership and that I emphasized what, in my professional judgment, was most interesting to that readership.

Add-on: I found a link to my story. I recall now that Elder Bruce D. Porter of the Seventy was on the rostrum but did not speak. Here's the link:

http://www.ldschurch...Tabernacle.html

Thanks for the link!