49 replies to this topic

[zerinus]

followerofemmanuel, on 13 February 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Everyone has truths they hold to and often times they may conflict with other people's beliefs. Ultimately, we have a choice of what we are to believe about God, who Christ is, salvation etc.  The challenge is, both LDS and Evangelicals (among others) share a calling to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", (Mathew 28:19)

I don't think that they have such a calling at all. That scripture was not addressed to them.

Quote

Obvoiously there are varied opinions about who people claim Christ, or God the Father to be and we know that everyone can not be right. So how do we love one another through these differences, how do we create safe space to work through these eternal matters together? I sincerly would like to know.

What is your answer to that question?

Edited by zerinus, 13 February 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[followerofemmanuel]

zerinus, on 13 February 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

I don't think that they have such a calling at all. That scripture was not addressed to them.

I am not sure is who the "they" that you are referring to.


Obvoiously there are varied opinions about who people claim Christ, or God the Father to be and we know that everyone can not be right. So how do we love one another through these differences, how do we create safe space to work through these eternal matters together? I sincerly would like to know.

What is your answer to that question?

I am still working that out.  I am here, to learn and to discuss.  I think the forum is intended to be a safe space, so time will tell.  I have seen some honest dialouge and I am learning a lot but I have also seen some mud pies being thrown around, which in my opinion never acoomplishes any good.

Edited by followerofemmanuel, 13 February 2012 - 06:24 PM.

[zerinus]

followerofemmanuel, on 13 February 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

I am still working that out.  I am here, to learn and to discuss.  I think the forum is intended to be a safe space, so time will tell.  I have seen some honest dialouge and I am learning a lot but I have also seen some mud pies being thrown around, which in my opinion never acoomplishes any good.

I think that the answer to that question is a lot simpler though. When they stop telling us that we are not Christians, or that we worship a different God, then we can have a serious dialogue. You cannot be seriously interested in a dialogue when you start from that starting-point. That is the starting-point of confrontation, not dialogue; and the best answer to it is the one I gave; unless a fundamental shift in direction is observed from the other side.

[followerofemmanuel]

zerinus, on 13 February 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

I think that the answer to that question is a lot simpler though. When they stop telling us that we are not Christians, or that we worship a different God, then we can have a serious dialogue. You cannot be seriously interested in a dialogue when you start from that starting-point. That is the starting-point of confrontation, not dialogue; and the best answer to it is the one I gave; unless a fundamental shift in direction is observed from the other side.

I agree, that is not a good place to start a conversation and I have seen opion shared from both sides.  I saw this in another post, "In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)

Perhaps this is a better place to start. What do you think?  Thanks

[zerinus]

followerofemmanuel, on 13 February 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I agree, that is not a good place to start a conversation and I have seen opion shared from both sides.  I saw this in another post, "In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)

Perhaps this is a better place to start. What do you think?  Thanks

That is my starting point, but expressed in different words. That is the God of the Bible that Hinckley is describing. When they tell us that we worship a different God or a different Christ, the answer is yes, we worship the God and Jesus of the Bible; the one Who appeared to the ancient Biblical prophets; and the same one Who appeared to the prophet of the latter days. It is the same God Who appeared to Moses, to Peter, and to Joseph Smith. If they are not worshipping that God, then they are worshipping a God who is not the God of the Bible. We prefer to stick to worshipping the God of the Bible. They can come and join us when they start worshipping the same God.

Edited by zerinus, 13 February 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[mfbukowski]

orion88, on 13 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Whenever I speak to an LDS missionary and he mentions that we worship the same
Heavenly Father, I correct him by mentioning that evangelicals do not worship an
exalted man.

You hope.  

[mfbukowski]

orion88, on 13 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Whenever I speak to an LDS missionary and he mentions that we worship the same
Heavenly Father, I correct him by mentioning that evangelicals do not worship an
exalted man. In this sense I am bring something "new" to him because the junior
missionary has never heard of Mr. Smith's teaching that Heavenly Father became
a God.

It doesn't help matters when the LDS Church removes this teaching from its current
Gospel Principles manual but fortunately the previous version (plus other older writings)
are still accessible.

LOL
Why do you suppose that Gospel Principles contains everything that every member of the church might or might not believe doctrine?   It does not.   It is extremely elementary.

And the fact that you acknowledge that the teaching is readily available through many sources belies your presumption that we are hiding something.

By the way, what does your church teach about what God was doing for an eternity before he decided to create the world?

We answer questions other churches don't even ask.  With your limited information, you should be grateful for the opportunity to consider some other possibilities.  You have no explanation for what He was doing- why argue with ours?

[mfbukowski]

followerofemmanuel, on 13 February 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

....how do we create safe space to work through these eternal matters together? I sincerly would like to know.

Ask Ed Decker and Rob Bowman and the others who say we are a cult.   I don't go around telling them they are.  Eternal matters are not to be "worked through".   That is for politicians.

What are you advocating precisely?  Some kind of meeting of leaders where our theologies become one?   That won't happen.  Over a period of hundreds of years we may evolve to the same point, or some sudden event could show who is right- but barring those things, there will always be differences.

[followerofemmanuel]

mfbukowski, on 13 February 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Ask Ed Decker and Rob Bowman and the others who say we are a cult.   I don't go around telling them they are.  Eternal matters are not to be "worked through".   That is for politicians.

When I say, that Eternal matters are to be worked through, I mean just that (for me at least).  I have come to believe and worship God as an Evangelical.  This summer I was in a place called Palmyra and was challenged many times (in a friendly manner) to read the Book of Mormon and look into the LDS faith.  I am doing just that.  If the LDS understanding of the gospel is in fact true and my understanding is false (or vice versa) there are eternal implications to that, which I take quite seriously.

What are you advocating precisely?  Some kind of meeting of leaders where our theologies become one?   That won't happen.  Over a period of hundreds of years we may evolve to the same point, or some sudden event could show who is right- but barring those things, there will always be differences.

I am not wanting to advocate anything specific really.  I would however, love to see people to have freedom to believe what they want with out hate, and the opportunity for people to seek, learn and ask questions respectful of one anothers understanding on matters of faith.  I started this thread to hear what people thought of an Evangelical Apologist sharing at an LDS Tabernacle from the LDS community and evangelical community because I am curious and on a journey of learning. I am seeking to understand more fully what LDS believe from LDS folks directly. Perhaps this is not the place for that.  I like the idea of interacting with LDS who are discussing everyday topics.  It is much more comfortable this way than speaking with a Missionary and working through a set agenda and teachings.  

[mfbukowski]

followerofemmanuel, on 13 February 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

I am not wanting to advocate anything specific really.  I would however, love to see people to have freedom to believe what they want with out hate, and the opportunity for people to seek, learn and ask questions respectful of one anothers understanding on matters of faith.  I started this thread to hear what people thought of an Evangelical Apologist sharing at an LDS Tabernacle from the LDS community and evangelical community because I am curious and on a journey of learning. I am seeking to understand more fully what LDS believe from LDS folks directly. Perhaps this is not the place for that.  I like the idea of interacting with LDS who are discussing everyday topics.  It is much more comfortable this way than speaking with a Missionary and working through a set agenda and teachings.  

OK well I appreciate your honesty and hope you can learn something here.   I think with the respectful tone you have used so far you may learn a lot.  Those who come here to debate get what they came for, and so do those who come to learn.   I have seen that over and over!  

[followerofemmanuel]

mfbukowski, on 13 February 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

OK well I appreciate your honesty and hope you can learn something here.   I think with the respectful tone you have used so far you may learn a lot.  Those who come here to debate get what they came for, and so do those who come to learn.   I have seen that over and over!  

Thanks for your encouragment.

[orion88]

mfbukowski, on 13 February 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

By the way, what does your church teach about what God was doing for an eternity before he decided to create the world?

I have not seen any speculative material published by my church that deals with this.

[mfbukowski]

orion88, on 14 February 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

I have not seen any speculative material published by my church that deals with this.

Thanks for the honest answer.   As I said, we answer questions others don't even ask.  I see that as a good thing, not a bad one.   It's a more comprehensive view of God and the Plan of Salvation than others have.

If you ask other Christians "Why are we here?  What's the meaning of life?" no one seems to know the answer.  That's a pretty basic question if you ask me.   Everyone wants to know what the purpose of life is, and it would appear that we are the only church who believe in Christ with a definite answer.

[followerofemmanuel]

mfbukowski, on 14 February 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

Thanks for the honest answer.   As I said, we answer questions others don't even ask.  I see that as a good thing, not a bad one.   It's a more comprehensive view of God and the Plan of Salvation than others have.

Can you share that here or email me a response to what that is?

If you ask other Christians "Why are we here?  What's the meaning of life?" no one seems to know the answer.  That's a pretty basic question if you ask me.   Everyone wants to know what the purpose of life is, and it would appear that we are the only church who believe in Christ with a definite answer.

What understanding does your faith bring to understanding our purpose.

[mfbukowski]

followerofemmanuel, on 14 February 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

What understanding does your faith bring to understanding our purpose.

We have always been intelligences and spirits with God as our Father, and we have come here with a specific purpose- to receive bodies which could be resurrected, and grow in our understanding of our Father, and be tested, by walking in faith.  In the spirit world that was not possible because we could see God face to face. In so doing our quest is to find the truth of the gospel and learn to listen to the spirit which guides us to truth through personal revelation.   In effect, we are taught to hear, and listen to, our Father's voice.   We are to do our best to be the best humans we are able, to be and recognize that we are in fact God's children, all together in this world as one family- spirits having a "human experience".   When we pass on, if we have not found the truth of our purpose in living, we will have an opportunity in the next life, but eventually every knee will bow and confess that Jesus is the Christ.   the truth will become obvious to virtually all.

We will then be rewarded according to how we have lived our lives, but all will have unimaginable glory.   Those who qualify themselves will have the opportunity to sit with our Father and the Son (John 17) and share in their glory, and have the unimaginable gift of the opportunity to become like them.

And so it goes- not unlike family life here, but perfected.  We will then be able to have our own spirit children and continue the cycle.

THAT is what LDS belive the "purpose of life" is.   (short version)

Why do you think God made us?   What WAS he doing for all eternity before he created us?

Edited by mfbukowski, 14 February 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[Gervin]

mfbukowski, on 14 February 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

We have always been intelligences and spirits with God as our Father, and we have come here with a specific purpose- to receive bodies which could be resurrected, and grow in our understanding of our Father, and be tested, by walking in faith.  In the spirit world that was not possible because we could see God face to face. In so doing our quest is to find the truth of the gospel and learn to listen to the spirit which guides us to truth through personal revelation.   In effect, we are taught to hear, and listen to, our Father's voice.   We are to do our best to be the best humans we are able, to be and recognize that we are in fact God's children, all together in this world as one family- spirits having a "human experience".   When we pass on, if we have not found the truth of our purpose in living, we will have an opportunity in the next life, but eventually every knee will bow and confess that Jesus is the Christ.   the truth will become obvious to virtually all.

We will then be rewarded according to how we have lived our lives, but all will have unimaginable glory.   Those who qualify themselves will have the opportunity to sit with our Father and the Son (John 17) and share in their glory, and have the unimaginable gift of the opportunity to become like them.

And so it goes- not unlike family life here, but perfected.  We will then be able to have our own spirit children and continue the cycle.

THAT is what LDS belive the "purpose of life" is.   (short version)

Why do you think God made us?   What WAS he doing for all eternity before he created us?

It's a shame that no Christians you ask "know" the the answer when asked the question about the meaning of life.  

In their view, some might refer to David's similar question:



"When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers … what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?" (Psalm 8:3-4).



Some Christians might answer that it wasn't because God needed us: "The God who made the world and everything in it … is not served by human hands,as if he needed anything" (Acts 17:24-25).



He didn't make us because he was lonely. Long before we were here, God already had "company" with his Son and the Holy Spirit, referred to in Genesis 1:26, "Let us make man in our own image."



He didn't make us for an ego boost. God is secure in who he is—without us.



But, God chose to create us anyway, out of his great love: "I have loved you with an everlasting love" (Jeremiah 31:3). God loved us before he even created us.



God is love (1 John 4: , and because of that love and his wonderful creativity, he made us so we can enjoy all that he is and all that he's done.



God created us to fulfill his eternal plan.

• "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength" (Deuteronomy 6:5).
  
• "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39).
  
• "We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" (Ephesians 2:10).

Here's another reason why we were created:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4cd-8fSfoE


"this version of the world will not be here long ... it's already gone, it is already gone ..."

Edited by Gervin, 14 February 2012 - 07:54 PM.

[followerofemmanuel]

mfbukowski, on 14 February 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

We have always been intelligences and spirits with God as our Father, and we have come here with a specific purpose- to receive bodies which could be resurrected, and grow in our understanding of our Father, and be tested, by walking in faith.  In the spirit world that was not possible because we could see God face to face. In so doing our quest is to find the truth of the gospel and learn to listen to the spirit which guides us to truth through personal revelation.   In effect, we are taught to hear, and listen to, our Father's voice.   We are to do our best to be the best humans we are able, to be and recognize that we are in fact God's children, all together in this world as one family- spirits having a "human experience".   When we pass on, if we have not found the truth of our purpose in living, we will have an opportunity in the next life, but eventually every knee will bow and confess that Jesus is the Christ.   the truth will become obvious to virtually all.

We will then be rewarded according to how we have lived our lives, but all will have unimaginable glory.   Those who qualify themselves will have the opportunity to sit with our Father and the Son (John 17) and share in their glory, and have the unimaginable gift of the opportunity to become like them.

And so it goes- not unlike family life here, but perfected.  We will then be able to have our own spirit children and continue the cycle.

THAT is what LDS belive the "purpose of life" is.   (short version)

Why do you think God made us?   What WAS he doing for all eternity before he created us?

Great questions!  Why did God create us?  I guess I just always believed for his pleasure (all things created by him and for him).  As a believer, I always looked reverently at God as my heavenly father and believed that he created us because he can, becuase he is so unimaginaly creative and on a much larger scale for the reason we have families and create families, out of an expression of love.  I do aggree that we are here to grow (through testing/trials and experiences) and learn who our Creator and savior is and to be in fellowship with him.  You'll have to forgive me though, as I am not an apologist for the Christian Evangelical faith, rather this is my humble opion.

As for you second question...wow.  I don't really have any profound thoughts on this other than I believe that God is the same yesturday, today and tomorrow and that I understand that he has always been a creator and holy supreme being.  I have not looked into it any deeper than that.  I can honestly say that I have never really thought about it other than have the understanding of Gods nature be as partially described above.  I am not aware of any specific doctrine so to speak on this topic, but I am the wrong person to ask.

Where do you get your understanding to this question from, the Book of Mormon?  If so, maybe you can tell me where it is and I can read up on it.  Thanks, good discussion!

[followerofemmanuel]

Gervin, on 14 February 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

It's a shame that no Christians you ask "know" the the answer when asked the question about the meaning of life.  

In their view, some might refer to David's similar question:



"When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers … what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?" (Psalm 8:3-4).



Some Christians might answer that it wasn't because God needed us: "The God who made the world and everything in it … is not served by human hands,as if he needed anything" (Acts 17:24-25).



He didn't make us because he was lonely. Long before we were here, God already had "company" with his Son and the Holy Spirit, referred to in Genesis 1:26, "Let us make man in our own image."



He didn't make us for an ego boost. God is secure in who he is—without us.



But, God chose to create us anyway, out of his great love: "I have loved you with an everlasting love" (Jeremiah 31:3). God loved us before he even created us.



God is love (1 John 4: , and because of that love and his wonderful creativity, he made us so we can enjoy all that he is and all that he's done.



God created us to fulfill his eternal plan.

• "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength" (Deuteronomy 6:5).
  
• "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39).
  
• "We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" (Ephesians 2:10).

Here's another reason why we were created:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4cd-8fSfoE

interesting thoughts, but I don't follow how the video relates to this, sorry.  Am I missing something obvious?

Edited by followerofemmanuel, 14 February 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[mfbukowski]

Gervin, on 14 February 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

It's a shame that no Christians you ask "know" the the answer when asked the question about the meaning of life.  

In their view, some might refer to David's similar question:

"When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers … what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?" (Psalm 8:3-4).

Yep.  That is the question isn't it?

Quote

Some Christians might answer that it wasn't because God needed us: "The God who made the world and everything in it … is not served by human hands,as if he needed anything" (Acts 17:24-25).



He didn't make us because he was lonely. Long before we were here, God already had "company" with his Son and the Holy Spirit, referred to in Genesis 1:26, "Let us make man in our own image."

He didn't make us for an ego boost. God is secure in who he is—without us.

Yep those are some answers for why he DIDN'T create us.....

Quote

But, God chose to create us anyway, out of his great love: "I have loved you with an everlasting love" (Jeremiah 31:3). God loved us before he even created us.


God is love (1 John 4: , and because of that love and his wonderful creativity, he made us so we can enjoy all that he is and all that he's done.

Exactly- he loved us in the pre-existence!

Quote

God created us to fulfill his eternal plan.

Yep, which was....

• 
  
  

  Quote

  • "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength" (Deuteronomy 6:5).
    
  • "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39).
    
  • "We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" (Ephesians 2:10)
  Wait a minute....   That doesn't answer it!   There is no answer there for WHY we are to do those things- just that we are to do them!  Where's the answer??

[Gervin]

mfbukowski, on 14 February 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Exactly- he loved us in the pre-existence!
[/list]

That certainly is a claim but not not supported by what we read in the Bible ... or by what I remember

Quote

Wait a minute.... That doesn't answer it! There is no answer there for WHY we are to do those things- just that we are to do them! Where's the answer

"Workmanship ... created in Jesus ... to do good works" is a sufficient "why" for me.