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So, Are They All Lying? Or Just Delusional?


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#1 freedom_of_religion

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 01:15 AM

I guess Why Me and I might have been on the same train of thought today. A friend of ours posted on Facebook a link that he liked, Recovering Mormons or something similar, I don't know the exact site. The top discussion was what was the straw that broke and made you leave the LDS church? I know his was church history (BoA, BoM, Polygamy, ect.), on a recent post I commented on his and his wife's falling away. As my wife has the same issues and is holding on by a string herself I read all of the posts and a lot of them point to the same thing.

Let me get to the point. All of the leaders and members alike (past and present) that have bore testimony of the church and said that they are certain of the truthfullness of the gospel. All of those that have claimed to have had (how do I put it?) a special witness or actually seen visions, angels, deceased loved ones, ect. The stories of angels attending the temple dedications. I recall a story of a man whose wife had died said that he spent an hour or so with her in the temple on their anniversary. The tons of witnesses of the restoration stories. Are all of these people lying? Delusional? My wife tends believe that they "truly belive" they witnessed something, but really didn't. I have personaly never seen, felt or heard anything, but can't get myself to believe that so many people would make stories up like this. Do those that have left the church doubt all of these witnesses? If no, how do you leave knowing that they are true?
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#2 inquiringmind

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 01:26 AM

Could you post some of these stories?

Here's one that I found particularly compelling.

Lorenzo Snow Raises Ella Jensen from the Dead

Soon after Lorenzo Snow was baptized, he received a blessing from Patriarch Joseph Smith Sr. Among other blessings, Lorenzo was promised that “if expedient the dead shall rise and come forth at thy bidding” (quoted in Romney, Life of Lorenzo Snow, 406).
This promised blessing was literally fulfilled many years later when President Snow, then President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, blessed his niece Ella Jensen, of Brigham City, Utah, and called her spirit back from the spirit world after she had been dead for three hours. Ella Jensen wrote the following about her experience:


“On the 1st of March, 1891, I was taken severely ill with the scarlet fever, and suffered very much for a week. It was on the morning of the 9th that I awoke with a feeling that I was going to die. As soon as I opened my eyes I could see some of my relatives from the other world. . . . I then asked my sister to assist me in getting ready to go into the spirit world. She combed my hair, washed me, and I brushed my teeth and cleaned my nails that I might be clean when going before my Maker. . . . I then bade my dear ones good by, and my spirit left my body.
“For some time I could hear my parents and relatives weeping and mourning, which troubled me greatly. As soon, however, as I had a glimpse of the other world my attention was drawn away from them to my relatives there, who all seemed pleased to see me. . . . I saw so many of my departed friends and relatives, all of whom I have mentioned many times afterwards, and with many of them I conversed. . . . After having stayed with my departed friends what seemed to me but a very short time, yet it lasted several hours, I heard Apostle Lorenzo Snow administer to me, telling me that I must come back, as I had some work to do on the earth yet. I was loath to leave the heavenly place, but told my friends that I must leave them. . . .
“For a long time afterwards I had a great desire to go back to the place of heavenly rest, where I dwelt so short a time” (quoted in “Remarkable Experience,” Young Woman’s Journal, Jan. 1893, 165).

Additional Account of This Experience
On the recommendation of Elder Snow, Rudger Clawson became president of the Box Elder Stake following his release from the penitentiary. Although Elder Snow was the older of the two by forty-three years, there was an unusually close relationship between them. In March 1891 they joined in raising Ella Jensen from the dead. Ella had died at 10:00 a.m. on a Sunday morning. Her father, Jacob Jensen, Elder Snow's brother-in-law, traveled from his farm to Brigham City to tell Lorenzo. Called out of a meeting, he took Rudger Clawson with him. By the time they reached the farmhouse, Ella had been dead two hours. All were surprised when Elder Snow, after meditating, asked for consecrated oil. He had Rudger Clawson anoint Ella, and Lorenzo sealed the anointing. According to Brother Clawson, in the blessing Elder Snow said "in a commanding voice, 'Come back, Ella, come back. Your walk upon the earth is not yet completed, come back.'" An hour after Elder Snow and Rudger Clawson left, Ella's spirit returned to her body. She later married, gave birth to eight children, and lived to age eighty-six. (Francis M. Gibbons, Dynamic Disciples, Prophets of God: Life Stories of the Presidents of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p.127)

http://scottwoodward...orenzosnow.html

Edited by inquiringmind, 01 February 2012 - 01:27 AM.

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#3 Stargazer

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:17 AM

Delusional or lying? Those are the only choices?

In a personal experience of mine, I was having a casual conversation with another member of our servicemen's branch, and he mentioned that our branch president was going to be released in a couple of weeks. I said "Wow! That's unexpected! I wonder who will be the new president?" I didn't hear or don't remember how he responded because I heard a little voice inside my thoughts that said "It's you." Just those two words. I did not think them, they happened without any volition of mine. I confided this to no-one except my wife, and as the days went by the feelings grew stronger. When the day came that the old president was released, the Stake President interviewed all the Melchizedek priesthood holders in the branch and ended up calling me to the position. I didn't tell him anything about my experience. Some will try to explain it all away as a coincidence. But I was there, and I know what I "heard". It wasn't a lie, nor did I lie to my wife or myself, nor have I ever been delusional. You are welcome to believe what you want about my story, but I know what happened.

A similar experience happened to a friend of mine who was called to be our ward bishop. He told me about the experience after his call, how he had received a strong impression through the Spirit that he was going to be called to be the next bishop (the then bishop having served five years, the usual term). Since the stake president lived in our ward, he decided to see if he could get out of it somehow by spending many more Sundays out of town where their family had a summer home -- maybe the stake president could be gently given the wrong impression about his activity level. It didn't work, and he was called. And I have a little bit of this story myself.

I was the ward clerk and was late to our morning bishopric meeting the morning the bishopric changed, and the now outgoing bishop told me after I apologized for missing the meeting that I needn't worry about it because they had gotten the word that morning that they were going to be released. They had spent the meeting time just chatting. At this point I left the clerks office and started walking towards the chapel so I could get ready for the meeting, and as I was passing one of the classrooms I saw there was a light on in it. Suddenly I got a distinct impression: the new bishop was in there. I stepped into the room and saw my friend, who was then alone in the room -- he was at the time a stake missionary and had remained in the room after they had finished their morning missionary correlation meeting there. "Wow!" I thought. A little later, of course, I watched as he was sustained as the new bishop.

Of course, some might insist that I was delusional in all these experiences, or that I am lying, but I testify that these things happened as I have related. You may believe as you will, but I KNOW what happened.

God isn't going to drive you, your wife, or anyone else into belief, or force any of us to stay there. There have been people who have experienced profound things and yet do not believe, or who cease believing even while acknowledging that the profound thing happened. It doesn't mean that the profound experience didn't really happen.

You know how the Book of Mormon recounts how Laman and Lemuel were confronted by an angel, and how this didn't seem to make any long term difference to them. Some people might find this unbelievable and might say to themselves, "If an angel appeared to me, I would sure change my tune!" Not so fast.

I lived in England for awhile and attended a branch there. During my time there a couple were baptized, and the husband happened to be blind in one eye. A few months after their baptism, he inquired as to the possibility of getting a blessing to have his full sight restored. He received the blessing, his sight was restored, and a few weeks later he and his wife went inactive, and stayed that way.

Check out this video -- it's been posted here before but I'd guess you haven't seen it -- and I'd like to point you to particular times in the video so you don't have to watch the whole thing (but it is worthwhile to watch the whole thing), but I can't find the points I want to bring out in the video.



Somewhere in here, Prof. Peterson tells about a man who, while on his mission in France, received a dream which directed him and his companion to a particular address in the city and indicated that the occupant of the home would join the church. They went to the address, the occupant invited them in, listened to their lessons, and joined the church. Later the man fell away from the Church, and even came out in open opposition to the church. He continued to acknowledge his experience in France with the prophetic dream he had, but denied that it meant anything. If you go to about 47 minutes into the video Prof. Peterson describes another experience the man had after he had fallen away, an experience which the man acknowledged (kind of an Alma the Younger experience), but denied that it meant anything.

I do not know the answer to the problem that a person doesn't gain a spiritual confirmation of the Gospel despite searching for it. But I propose that those who disbelieve to the point of doubting the witness of all others that they have received a genuine spiritual experience will never receive any witness for themselves.

In other words, doubt overpowers faith -- as James said.

Edited by Stargazer, 01 February 2012 - 02:43 AM.

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#4 freedom_of_religion

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 06:54 AM

Delusional or lying? Those are the only choices?

In a personal experience of mine, I was having a casual conversation with another member of our servicemen's branch, and he mentioned that our branch president was going to be released in a couple of weeks. I said "Wow! That's unexpected! I wonder who will be the new president?" I didn't hear or don't remember how he responded because I heard a little voice inside my thoughts that said "It's you." Just those two words. I did not think them, they happened without any volition of mine. I confided this to no-one except my wife, and as the days went by the feelings grew stronger. When the day came that the old president was released, the Stake President interviewed all the Melchizedek priesthood holders in the branch and ended up calling me to the position. I didn't tell him anything about my experience. Some will try to explain it all away as a coincidence. But I was there, and I know what I "heard". It wasn't a lie, nor did I lie to my wife or myself, nor have I ever been delusional. You are welcome to believe what you want about my story, but I know what happened.

A similar experience happened to a friend of mine who was called to be our ward bishop. He told me about the experience after his call, how he had received a strong impression through the Spirit that he was going to be called to be the next bishop (the then bishop having served five years, the usual term). Since the stake president lived in our ward, he decided to see if he could get out of it somehow by spending many more Sundays out of town where their family had a summer home -- maybe the stake president could be gently given the wrong impression about his activity level. It didn't work, and he was called. And I have a little bit of this story myself.

I was the ward clerk and was late to our morning bishopric meeting the morning the bishopric changed, and the now outgoing bishop told me after I apologized for missing the meeting that I needn't worry about it because they had gotten the word that morning that they were going to be released. They had spent the meeting time just chatting. At this point I left the clerks office and started walking towards the chapel so I could get ready for the meeting, and as I was passing one of the classrooms I saw there was a light on in it. Suddenly I got a distinct impression: the new bishop was in there. I stepped into the room and saw my friend, who was then alone in the room -- he was at the time a stake missionary and had remained in the room after they had finished their morning missionary correlation meeting there. "Wow!" I thought. A little later, of course, I watched as he was sustained as the new bishop.

Of course, some might insist that I was delusional in all these experiences, or that I am lying, but I testify that these things happened as I have related. You may believe as you will, but I KNOW what happened.

God isn't going to drive you, your wife, or anyone else into belief, or force any of us to stay there. There have been people who have experienced profound things and yet do not believe, or who cease believing even while acknowledging that the profound thing happened. It doesn't mean that the profound experience didn't really happen.

You know how the Book of Mormon recounts how Laman and Lemuel were confronted by an angel, and how this didn't seem to make any long term difference to them. Some people might find this unbelievable and might say to themselves, "If an angel appeared to me, I would sure change my tune!" Not so fast.

I lived in England for awhile and attended a branch there. During my time there a couple were baptized, and the husband happened to be blind in one eye. A few months after their baptism, he inquired as to the possibility of getting a blessing to have his full sight restored. He received the blessing, his sight was restored, and a few weeks later he and his wife went inactive, and stayed that way.

Check out this video -- it's been posted here before but I'd guess you haven't seen it -- and I'd like to point you to particular times in the video so you don't have to watch the whole thing (but it is worthwhile to watch the whole thing), but I can't find the points I want to bring out in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKY-ndlPI3M

Somewhere in here, Prof. Peterson tells about a man who, while on his mission in France, received a dream which directed him and his companion to a particular address in the city and indicated that the occupant of the home would join the church. They went to the address, the occupant invited them in, listened to their lessons, and joined the church. Later the man fell away from the Church, and even came out in open opposition to the church. He continued to acknowledge his experience in France with the prophetic dream he had, but denied that it meant anything. If you go to about 47 minutes into the video Prof. Peterson describes another experience the man had after he had fallen away, an experience which the man acknowledged (kind of an Alma the Younger experience), but denied that it meant anything.

I do not know the answer to the problem that a person doesn't gain a spiritual confirmation of the Gospel despite searching for it. But I propose that those who disbelieve to the point of doubting the witness of all others that they have received a genuine spiritual experience will never receive any witness for themselves.

In other words, doubt overpowers faith -- as James said.


My point is for those that at one point those that believed in the church and then left. If they leave and and say they don't believe in it anymore what are their beliefs on all of the witnesses that testify it is true? Those that have had those "sure" witnessess? Do they not believe them anymore either? I'd love to believe, fact is most of my testimony is based on my belief of others witness as I have never had one of my own. Like the story I mentioned, the guy who said that he and his deceased wife spent an hour together in the Celestial Room on their anniversary. Is he lying? Delusional? If neither, what? There are books full of these stories, how can they all be made up or just a ploy to get attention. If they are true, how could the church not be true as well?
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#5 Mariner

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 06:58 AM

freedon_of_religion,

A perhaps more fundamental question that you might ask yourself is: Why is it that these spiritual experiences such as promptings, visions, visionary dreams, seeing angels, etc. are experienced by adherents of many religions?

If people of other religions, or people who have no religion at all, still see things or believe that they see or hear or otherwise sense things that are not really there, then such experiences are not unique to adherents of Mormonism.

How is one to distinguish between a true Mormon Holy Ghost inspired prompting or vision or spiritual experience and a run of the mill spiritual experience?

What about spiritual promptings that were so profound that they caused the individuals who experienced them to dedicate their entire lives solely to religion?

What about those spiritual experiences that lead people to willingly sacrifice their lives?

When you consider such questions, it becomes pretty clear that the spiritual experiences reported by faithful Mormons are not unique. Therefore claims that these experiences are validation that Mormonism is somehow "true" while other religions are not "true" should not be taken seriously.
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#6 Storm Rider

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 07:03 AM

Seeing angels mean nothing to those who choose to leave. The Book of Mormon is good evidence of that.

What does it mean that even the very elect shall fall? Is this not prophecy? I do not think we should be overly concerned about who leaves; meeting their needs is not our objective because, frankly, I don't think we can do anything to meet their needs. They had long since chosen to leave before the door ever hit them on their way out. They have put their faith in the arm of flesh and abandoned all things spiritual.

In many respects I think this is a tempest in a teapot. Everyone seems to be talking as if no one is left in the Church; the pews are empty and the Church's history is the black hole. Nothing could be further from the truth; first you must take history selectively, ignore all that is glaring good, focus completely on perceived difficulties and then only listen to Satan to lead you quietly down to hell.
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#7 altersteve

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 07:21 AM

When you consider such questions, it becomes pretty clear that the spiritual experiences reported by faithful Mormons are not unique. Therefore claims that these experiences are validation that Mormonism is somehow "true" while other religions are not "true" should not be taken seriously.

Mormons do not claim that their spiritual experiences are unique. We believe God can (and does) give revelations and promptings to anyone, regardless of their religion.
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#8 freedom_of_religion

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 07:32 AM

freedon_of_religion,

A perhaps more fundamental question that you might ask yourself is: Why is it that these spiritual experiences such as promptings, visions, visionary dreams, seeing angels, etc. are experienced by adherents of many religions?

If people of other religions, or people who have no religion at all, still see things or believe that they see or hear or otherwise sense things that are not really there, then such experiences are not unique to adherents of Mormonism.

How is one to distinguish between a true Mormon Holy Ghost inspired prompting or vision or spiritual experience and a run of the mill spiritual experience?

What about spiritual promptings that were so profound that they caused the individuals who experienced them to dedicate their entire lives solely to religion?

What about those spiritual experiences that lead people to willingly sacrifice their lives?

When you consider such questions, it becomes pretty clear that the spiritual experiences reported by faithful Mormons are not unique. Therefore claims that these experiences are validation that Mormonism is somehow "true" while other religions are not "true" should not be taken seriously.


I'd never discount the personal experiences of those outside of the LDS faith. I agree that personal spiritual experiences are not unique to only Mormons and are available to anyone. I'm LDS and have never had so much as any kind of vision, visitation, ect. My question is for those visitations, visions, revelations, ect. that support the validity of the LDS church as the Lord's restored church and it's teachings are all true. I know that there are tons of stories (none specifically I recall) that people have told that at least claim that dead relatives came back and testified of the truthfullness of the gospel. If one were to believe these stories before leaving the church, what do they think about them after they leave?
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#9 Senator

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 07:48 AM

I do not think we should be overly concerned about who leaves; meeting their needs is not our objective because, frankly, I don't think we can do anything to meet their needs. They had long since chosen to leave before the door ever hit them on their way out.



That's the spirit!!
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#10 Pa Pa

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 08:05 AM

Delusional or lying? Those are the only choices?

Should have more choices, but claiming to see visions and lying would put the Spiritual lives of others in jeopardy. It would have to be a very large conspiracy to keep such “lies” going. This is why they are not lies. Even if you believed that they are kidding themselves…they indeed believe. Joseph Smith saw a number of visions with the “Three Witnesses”, and despite broken friendships, hurt feelings and excommunications, none of them ever denied having them. One great source is to read accounts of the Kirtland Temple dedications. This is what sustained many as they walked across the plains into an unknown world.
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#11 Deborah

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 08:16 AM

Everyone seems to be talking as if no one is left in the Church; the pews are empty and the Church's history is the black hole. Nothing could be further from the truth; first you must take history selectively, ignore all that is glaring good, focus completely on perceived difficulties and then only listen to Satan to lead you quietly down to hell.

Certainly not in my stake. We just realigned the wards and added 2 new wards to the stake. Sadly our meeting time is ghastly, 1:30-4:35.

I have family members who had those kind of spiritual experiences but got hung up on things that don't matter and have left the church. I asked my sister what about the testimony she once had and she says she still had those experiences but they had nothing to do with the church but with her testimony of Christ, which btw isn't true. She used to have a testimony of the church. What I think happens is once someone decides to leave they start to forget those things they once knew and lose perspective of the big picture that we must always keep in mind. I am bemused by the many here who talk about their previous "spiritual" experiences but once they choose to leave the church those experiences are reinterpreted.
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#12 Senator

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 08:17 AM

Are all of these people lying? Delusional? My wife tends believe that they "truly belive" they witnessed something, but really didn't. I have personaly never seen, felt or heard anything, but can't get myself to believe that so many people would make stories up like this. Do those that have left the church doubt all of these witnesses? If no, how do you leave knowing that they are true?


I suppose you must believe in UFO's, then?
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#13 Storm Rider

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 08:31 AM



That's the spirit!!


Oh, yes. The sweet, noble refrain of self-righteous indignation. No rebuttal, no logic, just unadulterated pride and moral superiority. Ya gotta love it....or may be it is just pity.
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#14 Senator

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 08:40 AM


Oh, yes. The sweet, noble refrain of self-righteous indignation. No rebuttal, no logic, just unadulterated pride and moral superiority. Ya gotta love it....or may be it is just pity.


You prove my point moreso with every post!
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#15 BlueDreams

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 08:48 AM

Are all of these people lying? Delusional? My wife tends believe that they "truly belive" they witnessed something, but really didn't. I have personaly never seen, felt or heard anything, but can't get myself to believe that so many people would make stories up like this. Do those that have left the church doubt all of these witnesses? If no, how do you leave knowing that they are true?

Personally I've experienced things that are inexplicable (that I don't want to go into details about) and I have had trouble believing them at times. They happened to me and yet I doubt. Those that I tell certain details to also have a mixed bag of understanding. Some take it whole heartedly and others have their reservations. What I've come down to is that it's easier to disregaurd things that don't fit within our own understanding of how things should go or are. When we have a set view of what is and we're met up with contradictory information we're more likely to either ignore it or write it off as untrue in some fashion. We twist details so that they fit within our own understanding of what should or shouldn't happen in the world we've constructed.

I happened to have constructed my worldview with certain beliefs and understandings. Though I've never had a problem believing people have dreams or visions, I thought of them happening to others far away, in the past, or something similar. There was always distance or some sense of exception that I gave to them. The other problem was that I had my own set of beliefs or thoughts that just don't fit with what I experienced. A few beliefs were immediately obliterated. A few have been challenges for me to let go of and trust in what I've come to know...even if it goes against what I consider common sense.

So if I have problems when I've experienced some things that are above and beyond easy explanation then I really can't blame others for having their own set of skepticism. I'd assume that for those that are far more removed from belief it's even easier to disregaurd accounts or even call them delusional/liars. Sometimes I've thought I was crazy.



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#16 Stargazer

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:00 AM

When you consider such questions, it becomes pretty clear that the spiritual experiences reported by faithful Mormons are not unique. Therefore claims that these experiences are validation that Mormonism is somehow "true" while other religions are not "true" should not be taken seriously.


There is no doubt in my mind that the Spirit works through many avenues. The truth claims of the LDS church do not need to be false for God to work with all of His children on the levels that they each need them to work. All cats are mammals does not mean that all mammals are cats. The validation of the truthfulness of the Gospel is a matter between each individual and God. I don't count a Buddhist's uplifting religious experience, for example, as evidence that Buddhism is the right way to go, but I do recognize that Buddhism has a certain amount of truthiness and is beneficial to its adherents generally.

Mariner, I know where you're coming from, and the fact that you do not believe does not mean that what you do not believe in is also false. Your doubt does not invalidate a single thing. Truth stands on its own, regardless.

Edited by Stargazer, 01 February 2012 - 09:00 AM.

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#17 Darth_Bill

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:00 AM

We rely on our own experiences, for that is really all we have. Otherwise, those hindu mystics have some compelling arguments too. I've had spiritual experiences, but none point to a point that the church is what it claims. It tells me there probably is a God and that he knows of my existance, but because I received direction in my life, good or ill, doesn't mean that the church is true or false. On my mission I was told to stay after a particularly trying time. When expressed this to my Bishop, for him, that was evidence that the church was true. For me, it was that I should stay, truth of the church wasn't involved or implied. I stayed and eventually things worked out better and differently than I contemplated when I was going to leave. Even then, I'm open to the idea that my subconscious was possibly looking out for me and manifested itself before I made a mistake while in my grief.

Edited by Darth_Bill, 01 February 2012 - 10:57 AM.

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#18 Mola Ram Suda Ram

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:02 AM


You prove my point moreso with every post!

When you say this that tells me that you lost.
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"Mola Ram.... Mola Ram.... Mola Ram Suda Ram. Mola Ram.... Mola Ram.... Mola Ram Suda Ram." Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Dogs have more in common with mammals than they have in common with wolves.

#19 Storm Rider

Storm Rider

    Brings Forth Plants

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:03 AM

Personally I've experienced things that are inexplicable (that I don't want to go into details about) and I have had trouble believing them at times. They happened to me and yet I doubt. Those that I tell certain details to also have a mixed bag of understanding. Some take it whole heartedly and others have their reservations. What I've come down to is that it's easier to disregaurd things that don't fit within our own understanding of how things should go or are. When we have a set view of what is and we're met up with contradictory information we're more likely to either ignore it or write it off as untrue in some fashion. We twist details so that they fit within our own understanding of what should or shouldn't happen in the world we've constructed.

I happened to have constructed my worldview with certain beliefs and understandings. Though I've never had a problem believing people have dreams or visions, I thought of them happening to others far away, in the past, or something similar. There was always distance or some sense of exception that I gave to them. The other problem was that I had my own set of beliefs or thoughts that just don't fit with what I experienced. A few beliefs were immediately obliterated. A few have been challenges for me to let go of and trust in what I've come to know...even if it goes against what I consider common sense.

So if I have problems when I've experienced some things that are above and beyond easy explanation then I really can't blame others for having their own set of skepticism. I'd assume that for those that are far more removed from belief it's even easier to disregaurd accounts or even call them delusional/liars. Sometimes I've thought I was crazy.

With luv,
BD


I have studied many of the lives of the Catholic Saints and I have been inspired by many of them. Their spiritual experiences are real to. I have been to Lourdes, France and I cannot easily disregard the experiences of St. Bernadette even though her visions do not fit into any of my personal beliefs per se. They just exist for me without afffecting my testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I have know LDS who have joined the Catholic Church and they are peaceful in their choice and they live their life without any rancor to their experience as a LDS; to the contrary they still value the knoweldge they learned there, but just feel that God led them to their new spiritual home. I support them in their decision and can believe that God has directed them to do so and God knows his reasons.

I see no reason to discount the experiences of others in a knee-jerk reaction; however, it would seem that we should be wise and discerning as we learn about them. God moves in mysterious ways.
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Storm Rider

When from Thy stern tutoring, I would quickly flee, turn me from my Tarshish to where is best for me. Help me in my Nineveh to serve with love and truth; not on a hillside posted, mid shade of gourd or booth. When my modest suffering seems so vexing, wrong, and sore, may I recall what freely flowed from each and every pore. Dear Lord of the Abba Cry, Help me in my duress to endure it well enough and to say, . . . 'Nevertheless.'” - Neal A. Maxwell

#20 Mola Ram Suda Ram

Mola Ram Suda Ram

    Ax Slinger after the order of RR

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:03 AM



That's the spirit!!

Your not very good at this, are you?
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"Mola Ram.... Mola Ram.... Mola Ram Suda Ram. Mola Ram.... Mola Ram.... Mola Ram Suda Ram." Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Dogs have more in common with mammals than they have in common with wolves.


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