I thought I answered this in post # 33, but I'll say it again:
It's not so much that "TBM" is offensive in and of itself, but it's the connotations behind it. It's the same with the term "mopologist."
The way some ex-Mormons use the "TBM" label implies that we are mindless followers of the Brethren and not capable of thinking for ourselves. We are sheeple and follow a ridiculas cult. Get my drift? It can be incredibly insulting, especially for those with a thinner skin.
And many TBM's and Mopologists do have great, intelligent arguments. I hope I'm one of them. But some people will automatically reject what you have to say simply if they perceive you as being a TBM or Mopologist.
Of course some of us learn to wear our "TBM" badge with pride, and that's great too!
Edited by Sky, 01 February 2012 - 03:25 PM.
The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. -Joseph Smith
There is nothing offensive about the word "True." It is the expression "TBM" that is demeaning. To understand why, please read my post #55. Try to make an attempt to actually comprehend it this time.
I can't speak for how others use the term, but I've never used it in an attempt to demean anyone, so I can only assume others are able to use it in a non-demeaning way as well.
For example, if you were to ask me about my family, I might say "My dad is a TBM, my sister is a NOM". I love my dad greatly, and have great respect for him, but instead of describing his approach to the Church in detail, it's easier to say "TBM", and you can trust me when I say that every characteristic of belief that is commonly ascribed to TBMs is found with my dad. That's just the way he approaches the Church and the gospel.
But if you choose to take it as a term of offense (when applied to other people, since I can't recall anyone calling you a TBM), go right ahead. I'm just not sure the TBMs themselves see anything wrong with it.
In spite of the world's arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God's prophets.
So we have a self-selected group of apostates advertising a survey where apostates like them hang out showing that most apostates are like them. Wow.
For an encore they should go announce a survey on UFO forums and prove that over 90% of Americans believe we are being regularly visited by extraterrestrials.
Don't harshly mischaracterize people you don't know. Give them the benefit of the doubt. People who have left the church haven't only left because of a problem they have. They also leave because the church creates a problem and doesn't do much to make anything better. It is naive either way to assume that the church has done wrong and that the church has done nothing wrong.
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10
Well, instead of saying "TBM", you could say believing LDS, or simply LDS. That would certainly be more preferable.
The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. -Joseph Smith
Don't harshly mischaracterize people you don't know. Give them the benefit of the doubt. People who have left the church haven't only left because of a problem they have. They also leave because they want to blame someone and the Church is a convenient scapegoat.
There. Fixed it for you.
Regards,
Pahoran
(1) Honest. (2) Well-informed. (3) Denying that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a Christian institution without interruption from the beginning of its history.
A critic may choose any two of the above three. Choose wisely.
Would BLDS (B - for believing) or TLDS (T -for true) or FLDS (F -for faithful not that wouldn't work) be acceptable?
LOL!
I think there are enough Mormon-themed acronyms out there already, so we probably don’t need any more. But if you want to continue using “TBM”, I won’t put up a fuss over it. It’s just not my favorite term.
The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. -Joseph Smith
I also agree with this change you made, Pahoran. But I wouldn't say one way outweighs the other.
I am concerned for those who have left because I want to understand what hurt them, what made them angry, why they chose to be offended, etc. I reject outrightly the arrogant assumption that someone who left the church obviously had something wrong with them (not to say that it doesn't). That is 'railing', disrespectful, and lacking in the love of Christ.
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10
Well, in light of recent announcements of the church recognizing member attrition due to difficulties with church history, and efforts being made to address them, I'll just say that I'm glad it (the church) will not be using your apologetic.
......."either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!"- Colonel Jessup, "A FEW GOOD MEN"
There are two reasons that I left:
Willima Schryver’s misogyny; and
Daniel Peterson’s combative online persona.
I found this statement on the blog a interesting...
I find it to be disingenuous, as Selek would say, for someone to cite Daniel Peterson as a reason for leaving. That is just ridiculous!
Person 1: Why did you leave the church?
Person 2: I didn't like Daniel Peterson's 'combative' online personality.
Are you freakin' kidding me?
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10
Well, in light of recent announcements of the church recognizing member attrition due to difficulties with church history, and efforts being made to address them, I'll just say that I'm glad it (the church) will not be using your apologetic.
I'm sure such efforts will be helpful to some.
I'm equally sure there will be others who will simply resent having their excuses taken away.
Regards,
Pahoran
(1) Honest. (2) Well-informed. (3) Denying that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a Christian institution without interruption from the beginning of its history.
A critic may choose any two of the above three. Choose wisely.
I'm equally sure there will be others who will simply resent having their excuses taken away.
Regards,
Pahoran
Your cynicism makes me laugh.
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10
I found this statement on the blog a interesting...
I find it to be disingenuous, as Selek would say, for someone to cite Daniel Peterson as a reason for leaving. That is just ridiculous!
Person 1: Why did you leave the church?
Person 2: I didn't like Daniel Peterson's 'combative' online personality.
Are you freakin' kidding me?
Exactly. While I'm sure there are those with genuine concerns who will be genuinely pleased to have them addressed, for others, any excuse will do.
Incidentally Will Schryver's "misogyny" is a beat-up, the result of a highly selective presentation of carefully edited evidence provided by an expert in the ignoble art of the smear campaign.
Regards,
Pahoran
(1) Honest. (2) Well-informed. (3) Denying that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a Christian institution without interruption from the beginning of its history.
A critic may choose any two of the above three. Choose wisely.
(1) Honest. (2) Well-informed. (3) Denying that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a Christian institution without interruption from the beginning of its history.
A critic may choose any two of the above three. Choose wisely.
I found this statement on the blog a interesting...
I find it to be disingenuous, as Selek would say, for someone to cite Daniel Peterson as a reason for leaving. That is just ridiculous!
Person 1: Why did you leave the church?
Person 2: I didn't like Daniel Peterson's 'combative' online personality.
Are you freakin' kidding me?
Hi Valentinus,
If LDS leaders advocate that some people have left the Church because they were offended by individuals within the Church, I’m not sure I see how it can be disingenuous when one of those individuals admits to the very thing that LDS leaders have claimed.
Or am I missing something in your train of thought?
Edited by Doctor Steuss, 01 February 2012 - 04:32 PM.
Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit "You don't have to be religious to have a soul; everybody has one. You don't have to be religious to perfect your soul; I have found saintliness in avowed atheists." - Rabbi Harold Kushner "A good man, is a good man, whether in this church, or out of it." - Brigham Young "It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine" - Joseph Smith "When we cast out the gospel net to bring in every soul, what we get back is a big bowl of cereal, i.e. a bunch of fruits, nuts, and flakes. Personally, I believe that the Church of Christ can sustain us all except perhaps the nuts that want to dispose of the flakes." – David Bokovoy
Doctor Steuss, on 01 February 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:
Hi Valentinus,
If LDS leaders advocate that some people have left the Church because they were offended by individuals within the Church, I’m not sure I see how it can be disingenuous when one of those individuals admits to the very thing that LDS leaders have claimed.
Or am I missing something in your train of thought?
I'm not Val, but something seems out of whack when a person chooses to be offended by an individual they've never actually met. I mean, wasn't there anyone in their own ward for them to take offense with, that they had to scour the internet to find Dan Peterson?
Regards,
Pahoran
(1) Honest. (2) Well-informed. (3) Denying that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a Christian institution without interruption from the beginning of its history.
A critic may choose any two of the above three. Choose wisely.
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10
Doctor Steuss, on 01 February 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:
Hi Valentinus,
If LDS leaders advocate that some people have left the Church because they were offended by individuals within the Church, I’m not sure I see how it can be disingenuous when one of those individuals admits to the very thing that LDS leaders have claimed.
Or am I missing something in your train of thought?
I liked Elder Bednar's talk from 2006 on not being offended. Being offended is a choice. The consequence is that power is handed over to the 'offender'. In other words, a double loss to the offended.
Most often, the GAs say things that I agree with but they don't necessarily inspire a positive emotional reaction. It's more like, "I smell what you're steppin' in".
When the GAs say things that I disagree with then I take it with a grain of salt and stew on it for a while. But I don't get mad. I remember the crap Pres. Packer got in Oct 2010 for his talk on morality. I think it was an old man's diatribe but I wasn't affected by it positively or negatively. Maybe I just smiled and nodded.
An example...Pahoran and I hardly ever see eye to eye on many issues. To him I might be a bleeding-heart liberal sissy (though I am a Log Cabin Republican) and some may think I view him as an ultra-conservative whackjob (not so much true as it is false). My point is that there is nothing that Pahoran can do or say, via his combative internet persona, that will make me consider leaving the church. Just not gonna happen.
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10
My response was simply to highlight the fact that no honest discussion of the Church of Jesus Christ calls it a "business." That label is applied exclusively, and only, by deliberate purveyors of falsehood.
It rated a response because even the most transparent lies need to be corrected.
Regards,
Pahoran
Pahoran,
The Church collects tithes and offerings from its members for its operations. Some of these titlhes and offerings are also invested in for-profit businesses, most of which are managed by the Church through Deseret Management Corporation, which is owned by the Church.
Don't get me wrong, the LDS Church has a great business model. It collects tithes and offerings in exchange for providing meeting houses and temples. It also benefits from hundreds of millions of dollars worth of free labor each year aimed at increasing its membership generated revenue stream.
Quote
"The LDS Church tempers its cash expenses through the use of volunteer labor. As of 1995, the LDS Church's human resources department estimated that the 96,484 volunteers (not including 50,000 full-time missionaries) serving at the time contributed services with an annual value of $360 million.
By the way, I did not indicate in my post that this was a bad thing. I am a principal shareholder and manager in business myself and can appreciate how the Church has been able to work the system. More power to them. The negative connotation was all yours.
Anyway, back to the issues at hand. In practice, the Church collects tithes and offerings from its members and invests a part of this income in businesses that it acquires or owns. The Church takes on risks in making these investments (with the money it has collected from members), just like any corporation, and has lately taken some big time hits with Beneficial Life and the City Creek Mall. Other LDS Church holdings that seem to be doing a bit better include Bonneville International Corporation, AgReserve, Hawaii Reserves, Inc. and Farmland Reserves.
Do Church tithes and offerings revenues cover expenses and provide for a profit margin? It is hard to know in the US because the Church has not disclosed its finances since 1959. However, in the UK in 2006, the LDS Church took in approximately 259 million Euros and reported expenses of 25 million Euros - posting a gross profit margin or more than 90%.
The Church collects tithes and offerings from its members for its operations.
That's because it is a church, not a business.
Snip the self-serving rationalisation.
Of course the Church pays its bills. That's why the members contribute. If it didn't pay its bills, it couldn't do its actual work, which is religious, not commercial in nature.
Yes, being a wise steward, it invests its surplus, so that it can continue to fund its actual work. Which, in case you missed it, is religious, not commercial in nature.
As I said: no honest critic of the Church, if such there be, calls it a "business." Self-serving rationalisations merely provide additional evidence of bad faith on the part of the critic who insists on calling it a "business."
Regards,
Pahoran
(1) Honest. (2) Well-informed. (3) Denying that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a Christian institution without interruption from the beginning of its history.
A critic may choose any two of the above three. Choose wisely.
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sjdawg, on 01 February 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:
