100 replies to this topic

[Mark Beesley]

Jaybear, on 01 February 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

One time, I unintentionally sent Pahoran on the warpath by refering to LDS leaders at the "bretheren."

That was probably because "bretheren" is not a word.  

[cinepro]

For those who might wonder who "The Brethren" are, here's how Orson Scott Card defines it:

Quote

Brethren, the

Even though the General Authorities are never addressed as Brother, they are collectively referred to as the Brethren. This term is often used to borrow authority without naming the source, as when someone calls you and says, “The Brethren have asked me to call you and urge you to go to the polls and vote for candidates who stand for truth, decency, and the American way. I happen to have a list here, so get your pen and paper ready.” Whenever someone tells you that the Brethren have asked him to do something, remember that this can mean he has an official calling from the First Presidency-or it can mean that he overheard a Seventy comment in an elevator, “Wouldn’t it be nice if someone would … ”

Edited by cinepro, 01 February 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[why me]

Sky, on 01 February 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Many apostates are nastier to us than we are to them, but that's just my perception.  We get demeaning labels like "TBM" and get accused of being "mindless sheeple."  If somebody was out working to destroy and mock something that you hold sacred, then you would probably be a little upset too.  But somehow, we have to learn to not respond in kind and be above that, because otherwise we would be no better than them.

If one looks at church history, one will see that apostates have always been nasty and they have caused much destruction. In fact, we can say that an apostate killed JS. And many more burned homes of their former friends among the mormons. Their is something about apostate mentality that seeks to destroy that which they once loved: the lds church.

[why me]

I think that we can say that the internet has hurt the lds church. One reason for this is the simple nature of the critic agrument and the lack of critical thinking skills among church members. But we also need to ask ourselves how people who have experienced many spiritual blessings can be so easily swayed. I think that the lds church needs to fight back about this and perhaps classes for members and more articles in the ensign will do the trick. I remember that the ensign from the 70's had great articles and many things were covered about the lds church that one does not see now.

Edited by why me, 01 February 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[Deborah]

I have observed another kind of apostate than those who leave over "historical" issues. Or perhaps you could say they do but for the opposite reasons. There is a large and growing apostate group here in Utah that believes the words of Brigham Young and other of the first prophets of the restoration, up to Wilford Woodruff, supersede the words of modern prophets. Wilford Woodruff was a fallen prophet because he ended polygamy. These people focus on the JOD as their scripture, and consider anything said there to be binding on the church today. One of their beliefs is that the church is fallen because we aren't being persecuted as we once were and BY said when the church isn't persecuted and becomes accepted it will be in Babylon and be fallen. Of course when you point out the many more subtle persecutions today as well as the fact that we have stricter laws that prevent people being driven from their homes by mobs, they say that we still are not persecuted and if we kept the practice of polygamy we would be and then we would still be the true church. Of course they overlook the revelation Pres. Woodruff had that led up to the stopping of polygamy and the fact the church would have dwindled and not been able to go out into the world. Oh, but then that is another reason the church is fallen because we should all be gathered in one place. When you point out that the church is too large to do that, they argue the church was never meant to be in every place until the millennium.

So yes there is a great apostasy happening but it's not necessarily because of people being disturbed by the historical discrepancies, as they see them, but people being so focused on the history they have lost sight of the bigger picture.

[why me]

Buckeye, on 01 February 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

Ditto.  I've been in many leadership positions.  Never once heard someone rail against inactives or former members.  I'm just one data point, but that's my experience.

I find this to be true. I am not exactly an active member but when I come to church, people treat me well and no one rails against inactives or former members. In fact, just the opposite. Most would love to have them all come back to full bloom.

[why me]

Deborah, on 01 February 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

So yes there is a great apostasy happening but it's not necessarily because of people being disturbed by the historical discrepancies, as they see them, but people being so focused on the history they have lost sight of the bigger picture.

When it comes to apostacy I think that we will see a great deal more of it. It is the sign of the times.

[Verum]

Deborah, on 01 February 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

So yes there is a great apostasy happening but it's not necessarily because of people being disturbed by the historical discrepancies, as they see them, but people being so focused on the history they have lost sight of the bigger picture.

Would you agree with this statement?
"LDS doctrine as a whole is rooted inescapably in history. Its claims to divine authority and restored truth are entirely dependent on the narratives of the LDS origins. Without an uncompromising belief in Joseph Smith’s literal visitation by God and heavenly angels, verbally communicating and physically transmitting to him ancient records and priesthood keys, and without verifiable evidence of a continuing conduit linking Joseph’s successors to God—a God who personally directs the continuing work of the restoration—Mormonism would utterly lose its claim to be the unique institutional form of the one true gospel. "
Pg. 222. People of Paradox – Terryl Givens

I think this is why history is important and essentially is a huge part of the "big picture" . I will agree that some people lose faith though over "historical gossip" and character flaws instead of legitimate problems with historical narratives.

Edited by Verum, 01 February 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[sjdawg]

Sky, on 01 February 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Many apostates are nastier to us than we are to them, but that's just my perception.  We get demeaning labels like "TBM" and get accused of being "mindless sheeple."  If somebody was out working to destroy and mock something that you hold sacred, then you would probably be a little upset too.  But somehow, we have to learn to not respond in kind and be above that, because otherwise we would be no better than them.

Why is TBM demeaning?

[Deborah]

Verum, on 01 February 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Would you agree with this statement?

Of course, but then I don't have a problem with the history, even for example multiple First Vision accounts.

[why me]

sjdawg, on 01 February 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Why is TBM demeaning?

Because of how they use it. They use it to demean. Now should it be used that way? No. But it is.

[Buckeye]

sjdawg, on 01 February 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Why is TBM demeaning?

Because it excludes Ute fans, Boise State fans, Liverpool fans, and any other "non-Bleus".

[sjdawg]

why me, on 01 February 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

Because of how they use it. They use it to demean. Now should it be used that way? No. But it is.

I'm not sure I follow.  My understanding is the term means True Believing Mormon or True Blue Mormon.  Seems like an accurate way to describe someone fully engaged in the LDS Church.  Just like I don't really have an issue being call an apostate (a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc. ).  If you use the dictionary definition that is a pretty accurate way to describe me.  


(the term anti-mormon on the other hand....)

Edited by sjdawg, 01 February 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[cinepro]

why me, on 01 February 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

If one looks at church history, one will see that apostates have always been nasty and they have caused much destruction. In fact, we can say that an apostate killed JS. And many more burned homes of their former friends among the mormons. Their is something about apostate mentality that seeks to destroy that which they once loved: the lds church.

How do you define "apostate"?  Because in my experience, the vast, vast majority of members who leave the Church stop coming and never look back.  Those who turn nasty and try to make trouble are few and far between.

[Pahoran]

sjdawg, on 01 February 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Why is TBM demeaning?

Why is "Muttley" demeaning?  Why is anything demeaning?

Some in the GSB have chosen "TBM" as a way of disdainfully referring to believing Latter-day Saints.  It is wrapped around with various assumptions about inability to even consider questions, (especially the two or three that the speaker has decided are dispositive of the Church's truth claims.)  Upon examination, it turns out that the "TBM" is actually a caricature.  Sort of like a cartoon of a Jew with an enormous nose.  Admittedly that's not your ox being gored either, but can you see how it might be demeaning?

Regards,
Pahoran

[cinepro]

why me, on 01 February 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

I remember that the ensign from the 70's had great articles and many things were covered about the lds church that one does not see now.

I don't know what happened to the Ensign, but if you look at issues from back in the 70's and 80's, they actually had some really interesting articles, some of them that could almost be called "scholarly".

Now, it seems to be written at a second grade level and it's mostly, shall we say, "devotional" in nature.

[cinepro]

Pahoran, on 01 February 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

Some in the GSB have chosen "TBM" as a way of disdainfully referring to believing Latter-day Saints.

Wait, I've always thought "TBM" stood for "True Believing Mormon".  If "Mormon" is another term for "Latter-day Saint", then you're saying that people get offended because "believing Latter-day Saints" are being referred to as "True Believing Mormons".

So what is it about the word "true" that is offensive?

As for it being a "caricature", I can't think of any characteristics of TBM's that haven't been ably exemplified even just here on this message board, let alone in wards all over the world.  There are LDS who believe that way, that much, and there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that fact.

Whether or not it is offensive to call them "True Beliving Mormons" and shorten it to an acronym, we'll each have to figure out, I suppose.  But we should be careful about taking offense where none is intended.

Edited by cinepro, 01 February 2012 - 03:02 PM.

[sjdawg]

Pahoran, on 01 February 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

Why is "Muttley" demeaning?

Its actually a term of endearment.

[Pahoran]

cinepro, on 01 February 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Wait, I've always thought "TBM" stood for "True Believing Mormon".  If "Mormon" is another term for "Latter-day Saint", then you're saying that people get offended because "believing Latter-day Saints" are being referred to as "True Believing Mormons".

So what is it about the word "true" that is offensive?

Are you really so obtuse that you need me to explain this to you, or are you just amusing yourself by playing word games?

There is nothing offensive about the word "True."  It is the expression "TBM" that is demeaning.  To understand why, please read my post #55.  Try to make an attempt to actually comprehend it this time.

Regards,
Pahoran

[sjdawg]

Pahoran, on 01 February 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

Why is "Muttley" demeaning?  Why is anything demeaning?

Some in the GSB have chosen "TBM" as a way of disdainfully referring to believing Latter-day Saints.  It is wrapped around with various assumptions about inability to even consider questions, (especially the two or three that the speaker has decided are dispositive of the Church's truth claims.)  Upon examination, it turns out that the "TBM" is actually a caricature.  Sort of like a cartoon of a Jew with an enormous nose.  Admittedly that's not your ox being gored either, but can you see how it might be demeaning?

Regards,
Pahoran

I suppose I have seen it in that context but much more often I have seen it used as someone who simply believes in Mormonism.