55 replies to this topic

[volgadon]

Quote

In the Talmud and Hasidic literature, Satan is seen as an agent of God whose job is to tempt one into sin, and then turn around and accuse the sinner on high. His job is to tempt us as best he can, deep down, however, he hopes we will resist his temptation.

The Modzitz Hasidim have a special melody for the piyut "Ezkerah", a melody which they perform only once a year and any recordings are forbidden. The melody was composed by R. Israel Taube of Modzitz in the early 20th c. either during the amputations of his legs, or slightly after. R. Israel was severely diabetic and undertook the operation without anesthetics. His own agony he turned into agony over the destruction of the temple. His son-in-law reported that the rabbi frequently admonished his sons not to perform the melody and certainly not outside of their home. Why? The melody made Satan jealous and as a result he would provoke and torment the rabbi.
This doesn't make Satan sound like the kind individual who only with the utmost reluctance tempts men into and feels sorrow over their actions.

[volgadon]

Peppermint, I'd love to know where you got your info.

[Peppermint Patty]

Hi Volgadon,

I enjoyed your blog.  I have a few questions I would like to ask you sometime.


Here are a couple of sources:

http://www.jewishenc...les/13219-satan

Quote

Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress.He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God. In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity.

http://en.wikipedia....abbinic_sources

Quote

Talmud and other rabbinic sources
The Talmud mentions the Satan in many places. In all of these places, the Satan is an agent of God, and has no independent existence. Sometimes the Satan is conflated with various demons, such as Asmodai. At times there is even some sympathy for him. Commenting on the Book of Job, the rabbis express sympathy that his job was to "break the barrel but not spill any wine."^[20]
In Kabbalistic literature and its derivative, Hasidic literature, the Satan is seen as an agent of God whose job is to tempt one into sin, and then turn around and accuse the sinner on high. An additional understanding of Satan is from a parable to a prostitute who is hired by the King (God) to tempt his son (a Jew). The prostitute has to do the best she can to tempt the son; but deep down she hopes the son will pass the test. Similarly, Kabbalistic/Hasidic thought sees the Satan in the same situation. His job is to tempt us as best he can, and then turn around and accuse us; deep down, however, he hopes we will resist his blandishments.

[Cobalt-70]

blackstrap, on 26 January 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

As has been stated elsewhere,there is a part of the temple ceremony that hints that Satan was not "necessary"to the plan.

I'd argue the opposite, that the ceremony indicates that Satan was an integral part, and that what he did was the same thing that was done on other worlds. This is one of the gnostic elements of Mormonism. Without Lucifer, there would be no Fall, and we see the Fall as a good thing, because it leads us to knowledge.

That's not to say that the Mormon version of Satan is the same as the version depicted in the Book of Job. The Mormon Lucifer is not, like the Old Testament Satan, God's prosecuting attorney. We say that he is the "adversary," but we don't actually mean that he is, in the Old Testament sense, a prosecuting attorney on God's payroll.

If the idea were compatible with Mormonism, I think it's a beautiful idea. If Jesus is our mediator and defender before God's judgment bar, then who is the prosecutor? Satan would fit that role well. But alas, the Mormon view of Satan is Christian enough that I don't think it's possible to shoehorn him into that role.

[volgadon]

Peppermint Patty, on 31 January 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Hi Volgadon,

I enjoyed your blog.  I have a few questions I would like to ask you sometime.

I'm glad you liked it. Feel free to ask anything, anytime.

Quote

Here are a couple of sources:

http://www.jewishenc...les/13219-satan



http://en.wikipedia....abbinic_sources

Ahh, the perils of wikipedia. I've already mentioned the parable of the wine cask. The one about the prostitute is a horrible misreading of the Zohar II 163b and subsequent Hasidic interpretations, such as those found in Toledos Yaakov Yosef and the Tanya. I'll post them when I get a moment.

[WalkerW]

volgadon, on 31 January 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

I'm glad you liked it. Feel free to ask anything, anytime.




Ahh, the perils of wikipedia. I've already mentioned the parable of the wine cask. The one about the prostitute is a horrible misreading of the Zohar II 163b and subsequent Hasidic interpretations, such as those found in Toledos Yaakov Yosef and the Tanya. I'll post them when I get a moment.

Did you post them?

[CASteinman]

Peppermint Patty, on 26 January 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Even now, all Satan would have to do is take his followers and walk away.  This would also thwart the Plan as opposition must exist in all things.

satan is not required for sufficient "opposition" to exist.  The plan, per the Book of Abraham, had us come here to be tested in all things, even without consideration of satan.

[Sine Saw Square]

So what is "evil" then?
I view it as choosing contrary to God's will or rather perusing your own will at the expense of all else. Maybe there is is a more doctrinal definition.  It doesn't seem like the ability to act is a "thing" nor would does it seem to me to be something that couldn't exist. Lucifer and an entire third of the spirit children of God chose against Gods will after all in a situation where there was no "Satan".

[blackstrap]

Sine Saw Square, on 10 June 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

So what is "evil" then?
I view it as choosing contrary to God's will or rather perusing your own will at the expense of all else. Maybe there is is a more doctrinal definition.  It doesn't seem like the ability to act is a "thing" nor would does it seem to me to be something that couldn't exist. Lucifer and an entire third of the spirit children of God chose against Gods will after all in a situation where there was no "Satan".

And yet,there sort of was...

[Aliwe]

Cobalt-70, on 31 January 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

If the idea were compatible with Mormonism, I think it's a beautiful idea. If Jesus is our mediator and defender before God's judgment bar, then who is the prosecutor?

Your own sin.

[Kiviuq]

Where does Satan get his power?  Is not the ability to perform miracles only based on the priesthood principles of righteousness?  “Satan commands and the elements obey.”  Is this really possible?

Therefore, whatever power Satan has must be given to him from God, assumedly to accomplish God’s purpose.  If the world today is too evil, perhaps God gave Satan too much power.  At any time, God could pull back some of Satan’s power.

[Aliwe]

Kiviuq, on 21 June 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

If the world today is too evil, perhaps God gave Satan too much power.  At any time, God could pull back some of Satan’s power.

Fascinating.  A God who can not see the end from the beginning, who makes mistakes and changes course.

[Ron Beron]

Aliwe, on 21 June 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Fascinating.  A God who can not see the end from the beginning, who makes mistakes and changes course.

Well, there are cockroaches.

[Kiviuq]

Aliwe, on 21 June 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Fascinating.  A God who can not see the end from the beginning, who makes mistakes and changes course.

So, are you implying that the world today is exactly the way God wants it to be (in relation to the amount of sin caused by Satan?)  I’m not asking about if things are the way He knew they would become, but rather, that they are the way he wants it to be.

[Aliwe]

Kiviuq, on 21 June 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

So, are you implying that the world today is exactly the way God wants it to be (in relation to the amount of sin caused by Satan?)  I’m not asking about if things are the way He knew they would become, but rather, that they are the way he wants it to be.

Sometimes I'm actually impressed by the theology in the Book of Mormon.  For example, in 2 Nephi chapter 2 I read:

[11] For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

[12] Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

[13] And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

[Alan]

In my view Lucifer remains convinced he can win this war. I believe he sees it as a numbers game. The more he can covertly get to follow him in this life, coupled with those already commited to his cause from the pre-earth life, the greater his argument that he was right all along. Although salvation will come to practically all, he thinks that the more he can entrap people in sinful desires and behaviour, the harder it will be for them to repent in the spirit world and they will give up trying, just as they do here.
Is he part of the plan of salvation? Yes and no. No because his "ministry" wasn't necessary, yes because he is a child of God and is actually here now doing what he is doing. So in a sense, because he is a child of God he was always part of the plan, just as we are.