59 replies to this topic

[Peppermint Patty]

bluebell,

Thank you for your comments.  I honestly have no idea how about the Savior will apply His Atonement to His children who are still in need in the next life.  If anyone knows, I would be most interested in hearing about this.

As to your next question, I would say that the couple of people who would qualify as sons of perdition would not qualify for exhaltation, per the scriptures.

[bluebell]

Peppermint Patty, on 31 December 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

bluebell,

Thank you for your comments.  I honestly have no idea how about the Savior will apply His Atonement to His children who are still in need in the next life.  If anyone knows, I would be most interested in hearing about this.

Me neither, but i would imagine that He'll be much more merciful than we expect.  Of course, I sometimes also think that we'll be surprised by the justness of His judgements as well so i'm kind of all over the place.

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As to your next question, I would say that the couple of people who would qualify as sons of perdition would not qualify for exhaltation, per the scriptures.

So, if i'm understanding you right, you don't believe that being sealed to one's parents will guarantee eventual salvation in the celestial kingdom.

[ERayR]

Peppermint Patty, on 31 December 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

bluebell,

As to your next question, I would say that the couple of people who would qualify as sons of perdition would not qualify for exhaltation, per the scriptures.

Yet, as Bluebell has pointed out, these would be some who are sealed to parents and per your theory would be exalted.

And again I ask would you really want your wayward children forced into a position in which they were not comfortable and happy?

[Peppermint Patty]

ERayR,

I sense that you are still under the impression that this doctrine means that a child of sealed parents will be exalted no matter what, even if they do not want it. Clearly this doctrine must be in harmony with the rest of the scriptures, and should be viewed from that stand point.

I can't say for certain how it is accomplished, but I believe the doctrine as taught by our Church, and I believe that if parents are faithful to their covenants, that everyone of their children who want to be exalted will do so. If they don't care too much for exaltation, then they will inhabit a lesser degree of glory, and if they progress to a point of greater knowledge, and commit the unpardonable sin, then they will inhabit outer darkness.

The Savior's Atonement and love truly have no bounds.

Edited by Peppermint Patty, 31 December 2011 - 04:05 PM.

[bluebell]

Peppermint Patty, on 31 December 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

I can't say for certain how it is accomplished, but I believe the doctrine as taught by our Church, and I believe that if parents are faithful to their covenants, that everyone of their children who want to be exalted will do so. If they don't care too much for exaltation, then they will inhabit a lesser degree of glory, and if they progress to a point of greater knowledge, and commit the unpardonable sin, then they will inhabit outer darkness.

This makes sense to me as well.

Except, i still wonder how it works in regards to the verses in the BOM which clearly state we cannot put of our repentance until the next life-

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed."

I mean, i know that we are taught and believe that for those who have not have the chance to accept Christ, they will have that chance after death, but for those who DID have ample opportunties, I'm not sure how that will work.  How does it not contradict these verses to suggest that there is no real harm in procrastinating the day of repentance if you are sealed to your parents?

Again, i'm not arguing with you, i'm really just mulling this all over in my head and contemplating how it all fits together (or how it doesn't seem to fit together, i guess).

[calmoriah]

It seems to me that the love and desire to have one's children with one cannot be any greater than God's love and desire to have his children with him, if so than what he promises us as parents must also apply to him and all his children.

[bluebell]

calmoriah, on 31 December 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

It seems to me that the love and desire to have one's children with one cannot be any greater than God's love and desire to have his children with him, if so than what he promises us as parents must also apply to him and all his children.

I was actually thinking of this as well.  God knows that He will lose some of His children to their choices.  Should we be consigned to possibility of the same fate?

[mercyngrace]

bluebell, on 31 December 2011 - 05:10 PM, said:

I was actually thinking of this as well.  God knows that He will lose some of His children to their choices.  Should we be consigned to possibility of the same fate?

Would you consider resigning yourself to losing one or more of your children "good" news?

[bluebell]

mercyngrace, on 31 December 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

Would you consider resigning yourself to losing one or more of your children "good" news?

Of course not.  But if agency and progession meant so much to our Heavenly Father that He was willing to lose many of His children, should we believe that He would not allow us to experience the same thing because it would difficult?

[Duncan]

mercyngrace, on 31 December 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

Would you consider resigning yourself to losing one or more of your children "good" news?

I love this quotation from Pres. Clark

“You know, I believe that the Lord will help us. I believe if we go to him, he will give us wisdom, if we are living righteously. I believe he will answer our prayers. I believe that our Heavenly Father wants to save every one of his children. I do not think he intends to shut any of us off because of some slight transgression, some slight failure to observe some rule or regulation. There are the great elementals that we must observe, but he is not going to be captious about the lesser things.
“I believe that his juridical concept of his dealings with his children could be expressed in this way: I believe that in his justice and mercy, he will give us the maximum reward for our acts, give us all that he can give, and in the reverse, I believe that he will impose upon us the minimum penalty which it is possible for him to impose.”

so, in the end I trust that whatever happens to me or my son I trust that God will deal justly and mercifully and won't impose upon his agency, but I have to do my part in everything

[mercyngrace]

bluebell, on 31 December 2011 - 05:42 PM, said:

Of course not.  But if agency and progession meant so much to our Heavenly Father that He was willing to lose many of His children, should we believe that He would not allow us to experience the same thing because it would difficult?

I didn't say anything about difficulty.  I just asked whether such news would be "good".  Personally, I think it is much easier to write someone off than to love them toward better choices.

Of course, I don't necessarily agree with your premise that God expects to lose many of His children, at least not in the sense that the separation is unending.

[mercyngrace]

Duncan, on 31 December 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

so, in the end I trust that whatever happens to me or my son I trust that God will deal justly and mercifully and won't impose upon his agency, but I have to do my part in everything

That's one of my favorite quotes, too.  And I wholeheartedly agree that He will be both perfectly just and perfectly merciful without imposing His will on us or stripping us of our agency.

[bluebell]

mercyngrace, on 31 December 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

I didn't say anything about difficulty.  I just asked whether such news would be "good".  Personally, I think it is much easier to write someone off than to love them toward better choices.

I guess i'm confused why you asked then, since you obviously already knew that i would say that losing one of my children would not be good news.  

I disagree though in that i don't believe writing one of my children off would ever be easier than loving them.  I haven't ever had to put that into practice though so i'm speaking in hypotheticals in regards to my own children.

I do think it's easier to write the people off that you don't love very much because it's true that loving people through bad choices is VERY hard (saying that having a couple people in my family who have put me to the test)

[mercyngrace]

bluebell, on 31 December 2011 - 06:07 PM, said:

I guess i'm confused why you asked then, since you obviously already knew that i would say that losing one of my children would not be good news.  

I'm just wondering what level of joy we can expect if we are resigned to losing our loved ones forever. If this is the "good news", that infinite punishment follows finite sins, and there is ultimately a point of absolutely no return - that on some predetermined date God's parenting switch flips and He no longer goes out after His lost, I'm wondering what all the shouts of joy were for.  And I'm wondering if the unhappy state of a heartbroken parent is worth striving to attain.

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I disagree though in that i don't believe writing one of my children off would ever be easier than loving them.  I haven't ever had to put that into practice though so i'm speaking in hypotheticals in regards to my own children.

I do think it's easier to write the people off that you don't love very much because it's true that loving people through bad choices is VERY hard (saying that having a couple people in my family who have put me to the test)

I think divorce statistics, a single example among many, validate my premise that it is much easier to write people off than to love one who has wounded us. I agree that doing so with your own child would be difficult but there are plenty of estranged parents and children who've also abandoned the hard work of loving relationship in favor of distance and disconnect.

[bluebell]

mercyngrace, on 31 December 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:

I'm just wondering what level of joy we can expect if we are resigned to losing our loved ones forever. If this is the "good news", that infinite punishment follows finite sins, and there is ultimately a point of absolutely no return - that on some predetermined date God's parenting switch flips and He no longer goes out after His lost, I'm wondering what all the shouts of joy were for.  And I'm wondering if the unhappy state of a heartbroken parent is worth striving to attain.

I honestly have no idea, but i'm not comfortable with ignoring the words of the scriptures on the subject just because i don't understand it (and not that you are doing that, i'm just speaking for myself and my own understanding of scriptures).

However, we believe that God has a fulness of Joy right now, even knowing that lucifer is lost to him, for example.  How that can be, i don't know, but it's what the scriptures seem to teach so I have to lean on that understanding.  I would imagine that part of that ability comes from HIs knowledge that He did all He could and that Lucifer (using the same example) is where he chose to be and where he is happiest.

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I think divorce statistics, a single example among many, validate my premise that it is much easier to write people off than to love one who has wounded us. I agree that doing so with your own child would be difficult but there are plenty of estranged parents and children who've also abandoned the hard work of loving relationship in favor of distance and disconnect.

Again, this has not been my experience.  I believe that selfishness is rampant in our society and that loving someone else more than our own egos can be very hard (as divorce seems to show), but i don't believe that equates to it being easier to write off our children than to love them when it get's difficult.  I have seen too many parents go through hell trying to love their children (or their spouses) to believe that the norm is to walk away when it gets hard.

[mercyngrace]

bluebell, on 31 December 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:

I honestly have no idea, but i'm not comfortable with ignoring the words of the scriptures on the subject just because i don't understand it (and not that you are doing that, i'm just speaking for myself and my own understanding of scriptures).

I feel the same way, which is (ironically) why we disagree.  Thank goodness the issue doesn't have to be resolved tonight - lol!

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However, we believe that God has a fulness of Joy right now, even knowing that lucifer is lost to him, for example.  How that can be, i don't know, but it's what the scriptures seem to teach so I have to lean on that understanding.  I would imagine that part of that ability comes from HIs knowledge that He did all He could and that Lucifer (using the same example) is where he chose to be and where he is happiest.

Lucifer is miserable. Interestingly, the very section of D&C that idenitifies Lucifer as Perdition says that no man knows his fate except those who are partakers of the same.  It's also interesting that Lucifer and his sons are described as vessels of wrath - a reference to the parable of the potter perhaps?

I definitely agree that the scriptures on many levels seem to teach a less than thrilling outcome.

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Again, this has not been my experience.  I believe that selfishness is rampant in our society and that loving someone else more than our own egos can be very hard (as divorce seems to show), but i don't believe that equates to it being easier to write off our children than to love them when it get's difficult.  I have seen too many parents go through hell trying to love their children (or their spouses) to believe that the norm is to walk away when it gets hard.

I never said it was the norm to walk away from one's children when they stray.

I said it is easier to write someone off than love them toward salvation and I cited the prevalence of divorce recalling Bishop Theodore Burton's words that the solution to nearly all marital problems is repentance and forgiveness. Refusing to forgive and refusing to repent in a marriage is writing each other, and sometimes ourselves, off, IMO.

[bluebell]

mercyngrace, on 31 December 2011 - 07:30 PM, said:

I feel the same way, which is (ironically) why we disagree.  Thank goodness the issue doesn't have to be resolved tonight - lol!

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Lucifer is miserable.

And it's as 'happy' as he's ever going to be.

As i understand it, satan couldn't be happy in God's presence because it's not what he desires-satan is where he has chosen to be.  Therefore, he's happiest where he is or will end up, even though it's not actually 'happiness' as we would define it.

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I never said it was the norm to walk away from one's children when they stray.

Sorry to misunderstand you.  When you used divorce stats to argue your point i assumed you were using the norm of divorce to imply that the norm was to leave rather than love through difficulties.

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I said it is easier to write someone off than love them toward salvation and I cited the prevalence of divorce recalling Bishop Theodore Burton's words that the solution to nearly all marital problems is repentance and forgiveness. Refusing to forgive and refusing to repent in a marriage is writing each other, and sometimes ourselves, off, IMO.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

In my opinion, refusing to forgive and refusing to repent is simply the natural man winning out over the spiritual man-a sign of our sinful and selfish natures triumphing.  I don't think its a sign that someone chose to write the other one off because loving them was too hard.  I do think that does happen sometimes, no doubt,, i just don't think it's prevalent, especially not when it comes to a person's children.

[mercyngrace]

bluebell, on 31 December 2011 - 07:53 PM, said:

And it's as 'happy' as he's ever going to be.

As i understand it, satan couldn't be happy in God's presence because it's not what he desires-satan is where he has chosen to be.  Therefore, he's happiest where he is or will end up, even though it's not actually 'happiness' as we would define it.

Where does this idea come from, that Satan chose misery? The scriptures indicate he was thrown out and the imagery used is that of a battle. Just wondering if this is scriptural and I've forgotten something or if it is just a widely made inference? He did make a choice but misery and exile was the consequence of that choice, not the choice itself.

Also, if this is the pattern our children are going to follow, inheriting endless misery and banishment to the degree they fell short of the Celestial Kingdom, I am back to the original question. Is this "good news"?

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Sorry to misunderstand you.  When you used divorce stats to argue your point i assumed you were using the norm of divorce to imply that the norm was to leave rather than love through difficulties.

My original statement clearly indicates that divorce stats are a single example and I further separate the parental relationship by addressing that secondarily. Here are my words:

I think divorce statistics, a single example among many, validate my premise that it is much easier to write people off than to love one who has wounded us. I agree that doing so with your own child would be difficult but there are plenty of estranged parents and children who've also abandoned the hard work of loving relationship in favor of distance and disconnect.
I think we just miscommunicated - hazard of dialogue, even among friends.

PS I didn't address the last bit of your post because we've both agreed to disagree and we are going round and round about opinions anyway. That's silly since there's room for both of them.

[bluebell]

mercyngrace, on 01 January 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Where does this idea come from, that Satan chose misery? The scriptures indicate he was thrown out and the imagery used is that of a battle. Just wondering if this is scriptural and I've forgotten something or if it is just a widely made inference? He did make a choice but misery and exile was the consequence of that choice, not the choice itself.

I don't think he chose to be miserable, i think he chose to fight against God because he was happier rebelling than following.  In other words, i believe his rebellion made him happier than any other choice, which is why he chose it.

In other words, I don't believe satan could ever be happy or find joy in a kingdom of Glory, therefore, he will be 'happiest' where he will end up, though it won't be happiness at all.

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Also, if this is the pattern our children are going to follow, inheriting endless misery and banishment to the degree they fell short of the Celestial Kingdom, I am back to the original question. Is this "good news"?

It's not the pattern our children will follow.

I used satan as an example in response to your question of how God can experience a fullness of joy even though some of his children have chosen eternal damnation.  I only suggested that if God is capable of a fullness of Joy in such circumstances, then there would be precedent for us to be capable of the same thing.  I explained that i don't know exactly how it would be possible but gave some thoughts on it, that's all.

Hope you have a great New Year's Day!  I'm holding out hope that we get to sing 'ring out wild bells' at church today!

Edited by bluebell, 01 January 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[mercyngrace]

What comes to mind is that we are only accountable for what we know and Moses says that Satan didn't have complete knowledge. I believe that there is much less cut and dried about progression than we currently presume but I love asking the questions because they force me to think about what I don't know and reevaluate my assumptions.

That's why I joined the conversation and asked about the "good news".

Personally, I believe that God weeps for our self-inflicted torment but I also believe He experiences perfect joy because He knows many things of which we are, as yet, mostly unaware.

PS We didn't sing Ring Out Wild Bells... lamentable!