59 replies to this topic

[bluebell]

mercyngrace, on 01 January 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

PS We didn't sing Ring Out Wild Bells... lamentable!

Us either!    I was thoroughly disappointed.

[calmoriah]

As far as it being easier to cut off or not, remember we are not talking mortality, but about perfect, complete emotionally mature and balanced beings, with the ability to wait as long as necessary, the patience to do so and the knowledge of what that patience, love, long-suffering and ability to forgive can accomplish at the end.  Such beings don't make choices based on ease, but on what is most just and most merciful, what is right and good.

I see the only reason God would ever cut someone off was if he had perfect knowledge that individual would not only not ever return to the fold, but that it would cause his child less pain to remove any connection of spirit still existing...perhaps any such contact with the truly lost would ultimately destroy them, having purged themselves of that which is divine perhaps the simple presence of the divine no matter how limited is destructive to them in some way.   His work is to bring eternal joy to man, but when that is not an option (though this is an assumption based on scriptures) it seems to me he gives as much blessings as possible and limits any negative fallout or punishment to the least amount effective for the purpose, basic maximising pleasure and minimising pain for that individual.  Not what we would call happiness, but the closest that individual is willing to come to it.

I also don't see him personally cutting off anyone, rather he just allows them to continue to make the choices that little by little remove their freedom and range of possibility down to just one choice....turn back and set your face towards God and that is a choice the truly lost will never take.

If you haven't done it yet and this topic interests you, I would suggest reading CS Lewis' the Great Divorce (or Divide, I can never remember which).

I found the book a well envisioned of one possibility of how this might occur.  I didn't see it as the 'reality' to come but that it gave hints of what might be involved.  It is a good springboard for one's own ideas.  Of course the organisation and activity of Heaven is not how LDS would describe it, but the relationships between the saved and damned could be useful in imagining what they actually might be and I found the attitude of the damned likely to be close to what the reality will be since I see the ultimate flaw of those who turn their back on the Lord to be Pride, a sense of self so centred it allows no room in the soul for anyone else and has the drive to do whatever is necessary, to give up everything else to keep itself 'pure', 'independent' and uncontrolled by others.

Edited by calmoriah, 01 January 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[calmoriah]

Also JS talked iirc that it would be impossible to become an SOP in the afterlife.  If there is a condition that sets up when and how this can occur, I don't see why the cut off must be after this life and not before, It is possible in my view that all those who made the choice to accept their first estate have already demonstrated that inability to become SOP, thus allowing for all those born to eventually have some level of glory and divine relationship.

Cain is the only one I think anyone is more or less certain about, his mortal life seemed about as close to our pre mortal one as possible, at least in the sense of having such an open relationship at once with both God and Satan.  After Cain, such divine casual companionship is not described.  So if one insists that Cain is destined to be an outcast, it is possible to view his situation as unique in mortality more akin to what occurred during our first estate.

[Kenngo1969]

bluebell, on 31 December 2011 - 04:12 PM, said:

This makes sense to me as well.

Except, i still wonder how it works in regards to the verses in the BOM which clearly state we cannot put of our repentance until the next life-

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed." ...

Perhaps it means that in this life, we are able to labor to repent ... to try again, to work on our shortcomings, to do what we need to do to become better people ... while, consistent with the scripture in D&C 19, we will not be able to labor to repent in the next life; rather, the only way we will be able to repent in the next life is [shudder!] to suffer as Christ suffered.

[bluebell]

Kenngo1969, on 25 January 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

[/i]

Perhaps it means that in this life, we are able to labor to repent ... to try again, to work on our shortcomings, to do what we need to do to become better people ... while, consistent with the scripture in D&C 19, we will not be able to labor to repent in the next life; rather, the only way we will be able to repent in the next life is [shudder!] to suffer as Christ suffered.

That definitely could be what it is saying.

[ERayR]

Peppermint Patty, on 31 December 2011 - 12:17 PM, said:

And this one:



The saving principle of aTemple Sealing is so powerful that many prophets have used little qualifying language in their sweeping promises. For example, Brigham Young said, “I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang” (Discourses of Brigham Young, 208).

It appears that the sealing power of righteous parents literally has the ability to intercede on behalf of wayward children, either in this life or the next.  For me, this is just another wonderful example of the power of the Atonement and mercy of our Savior.  

For me I take great comfort in this little-understood doctrine.  There is real power, beyond our own capacity to fully comprehend, offered by the Atonement of Jesus Christ, as it is manifested in the covenants and ordinances of a Temple Sealing.

What are your thoughts on how this applies to each of us through the sealing of Adam and Eve, our first parents?  

Also, is this a case where love, mercy and grace trumps the free agency of a wayward child?  

It does not say they will automatically be brought to the Celestial Kingdom but that whatever place they end up they are still your children.

[Peppermint Patty]

ERayR,

It's pretty clear that these wayward children will gain the Celestial Kingdom  (Exhaltation):

Quote

"If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity” (Lorenzo Snow in Collected Discourses, 3:364).

Again, I don't understand this doctrine fully, but I believe it as taught by numerous Prophets and Apostles.  The Savior's Atonement truly knows no bounds.

Edited by Peppermint Patty, 26 January 2012 - 07:22 PM.

[Kenngo1969]

bluebell, on 25 January 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

That definitely could be what it is saying.

As challenging as it is to labor to repent, I think it'll still be easier than suffering to repent.  I'm gonna do my dangedest to do the former so I don't have to do the latter!

[inquiringmind]

Peppermint Patty, on 31 December 2011 - 12:17 PM, said:

...What are your thoughts on how this applies to each of us through the sealing of Adam and Eve, our first parents? ...

Two questions come to my mind here.

1.) Do we know that both our first parents (Adam and Eve) are saved?

2.) And is it possible to have a loved one sealed to them in the Temple?

Edited by inquiringmind, 11 February 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[The Nehor]

inquiringmind, on 11 February 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Two questions come to my mind here.

1.) Do we know that both our first parents (Adam and Eve) are saved?

Yes.

inquiringmind, on 11 February 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

2.) And is it possible to have a loved one sealed to them in the Temple?

Only through a pretty hefty chain of people.

[Storm Rider]

inquiringmind, on 11 February 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Two questions come to my mind here.

1.) Do we know that both our first parents (Adam and Eve) are saved?

2.) And is it possible to have a loved one sealed to them in the Temple?

I agee with Nehor; Adam and Eve are saved; more to the point we believe they will achieve exaltation.  As far as being sealed directly to them?  It is the purpose of the sealing power to seal each of back through our entire line of ancestors that we might all be saved.  It is our individual responsiblity to seek out our ancestors and offer them the ordinances of exaltation that we might all be saved as one family.  Answer:  you or anyone else could only be sealed to Adam and Eve through the sealing of your ancestors back to them.  One of the purposes of the Millenium is to have this sealing work completed for all.

[The Nehor]

The more interesting question is if parents through their righteousness can lead to the redemption of their children then what of Cain? What of Laman and Lemuel? What of Ham?

[LeSellers]

inquiringmind, on 11 February 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

1.) Do we know that both our first parents (Adam and Eve) are saved?

Yes. Both Joseph and Joseph F. Smith saw them in the Celestia Kingdom. See Doc&Cov 137 and 138.

Doc&Cov 137:4~5 said:

4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold. 5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

Doc&Cov 138:38~39 said:

38 Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all, 39 And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God.

inquiringmind said:

2.) And is it possible to have a loved one sealed to them in the Temple?

"To them", meaning to Adam and Eve or to the person making the inquiry?

All of their children will be sealed, eventually, to Adam and Eve, either directly or indirectly through others who are first generation descendants. (However, if a "link" refuses or is unworthy of the sealing, the next generation becomes the direct connection. All who are worthy and willing will be sealed, and those sealings are both just and effective.)

As to having someone sealed to an interested party, any one who had died can have his Temple work done by a descendant, and, it that descendant is a son or daughter, that sealing is one of the ordinances available. If a more distant relationship, the sealing will be indirect, but still just as effective.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers, 13 February 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[LeSellers]

The Nehor, on 13 February 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

The more interesting question is if parents through their righteousness can lead to the redemption of their children then what of Cain? What of Laman and Lemuel? What of Ham?

While parents can "lead to the redemption of their children", they cannot coerce their children into the Celestial kingdom.

So, it depends on whether Cain, Laman, Lemuel and Ham (among a host of others) repent and accept Christ as their Redeemer and Savior (even though they will still have to pay the price for their sins personally[see Doc&Cov 19]—only He can overcome death for them).

Those who are forced to bow the knee and confess Him as Lord will not be able to enter the Celestial kingdom. They who do so voluntarily, even though their lives and faith were otherwise insufficient to qualify for His redemptive grace in regards to their sins, will be "clean" and will be permitted in.

Lest anyone think he can meet this much lower standard of conduct, however, he would do well to reflect on the words of the Savior here:

Quote

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name; 14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them; 15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.


16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

'Twon't be easy.

The best path is to eschew, avoid and reject sin. The second best is to repent, early and often. Only a far distant third option is to wait until we must pay the price of our own sins, and to rely on others to provide the requisite ordinances on our behalf.




Lehi

Edited by LeSellers, 13 February 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[Mansquatch]

God = Perfect Justice

Finite mistakes + Infinite damnation = Perfect Justice ???

[Buzzard]

While the details are a bit sensitive to discuss on an anoymous forum, an incident that happened to my father at the funeral for my maternal grandfather who had a daughter who had been very inactive most of her adult life leads me to hold that in some way that I do not understand completely, righteous parents are able to reclaim sealed offspring. To what exent and by what method, I do not claim to know.

[bluebell]

Mansquatch, on 13 February 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

God = Perfect Justice

Finite mistakes + Infinite damnation = Perfect Justice ???

I don't really know.

I've heard this same example used by people who deny the need for an Atonement however and argue that God is too just and merciful to require the sacrifice of His Son to save other people, so I think that a lot of how we interpret this issue depends on how we interpret scripture, how we interpret 'justice' and what we believe about eternal laws.

[Mansquatch]

bluebell, on 13 February 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

I don't really know.

I've heard this same example used by people who deny the need for an Atonement however and argue that God is too just and merciful to require the sacrifice of His Son to save other people, so I think that a lot of how we interpret this issue depends on how we interpret scripture, how we interpret 'justice' and what we believe about eternal laws.

Uuuhh God is too just and merciful to fulfill justice by mercifully sending His Son to save us? Let me at these geniuses. They make no sense. Plus, even if you ignore the atonement for sin, we are still screwed without resurrected bodies from the Atonement.

I think we all agree that this topic is extremely interesting but not at all important in regard to what we should be doing in life.

[bluebell]

Mansquatch, on 14 February 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Uuuhh God is too just and merciful to fulfill justice by mercifully sending His Son to save us? Let me at these geniuses. They make no sense. Plus, even if you ignore the atonement for sin, we are still screwed without resurrected bodies from the Atonement.

I think we all agree that this topic is extremely interesting but not at all important in regard to what we should be doing in life.

Yeah, they claim that God can just forgive us our sins when we repent and that the idea of an Atonement to make repentance possible is a corruption of both His justice and His mercy.  It was a frustrating conversation on all sides!

If you don't believe God is bound by any eternal laws and that He literally can do whatever He wants and still remain God, it kind of makes sense i guess but it just shows how important it is to have a full understanding of the plan of salvation and what can happen when the measuring stick for deciding doctrine is 'it makes sense to me'.  

Edited by bluebell, 14 February 2012 - 08:51 AM.

[Mansquatch]

bluebell, on 14 February 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

Yeah, they claim that God can just forgive us our sins when we repent and that the idea of an Atonement to make repentance possible is a corruption of both His justice and His mercy.  It was a frustrating conversation on all sides!

If you don't believe God is bound by any eternal laws and that He literally can do whatever He wants and still remain God, it kind of makes sense i guess but it just shows how important it is to have a full understanding of the plan of salvation and what can happen when the measuring stick for deciding doctrine is 'it makes sense to me'.  

God can just say that He forgives us for being idiots, but then we are still stuck at a point where we cannot be Perfect and Eternal. His goal is not to just have us be "forgiven" the way two friends make up after a disagreement. If you look at it as though that was the goal, then you could conclude that there was no need for atonement. His goal is to have us understand and be empowered by the eternal laws that He perfectly understands and that requires atonement.