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You Lost Me.


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Note "spiritual" in scare quotes.

Absolutely. It wasn't an accident. I don't really like the word spiritual anymore, for a lot of the same reasons some Mormon apologists don't like the word magical anymore: it's not very specific. A person can tell you they've had a spiritual experience, or that they are a spiritual person, but you don't necessarily know anything specific about this person based on this description. Consider a crystal-hugging-Sonoma-rock-circle-pilgramaging New Ager, a Buddhist, a secular humanist, a Mormon, and a Wiccan all telling you they are into spirituality. I think you would have to agree they almost certainly are not talking about the same thing.

When I was on my mission, if I'd described my spiritual experience upon finishing the BoM that particular time, I'd have almost certainly meant that I believed that an invisible man had used a combination of inserting specific memes into my stream of consciousness (such as "the book you just read is true") and manipulating my feelings and emotions in order to cause the experience to stand out in my mind as particularly powerful or convincing. I am sure that most of you would have understood my description in a similar way, perhaps with your own particular nuance on the mission or details of the invisible man.

Well, I no longer believe that such an invisible man exists, and so I now understand that whatever I experienced, the memes I contemplated during the experience came from within my own mind, and the emotions and feelings I experienced were simple manifestations of common human experiences, and the likely result of a variety of different factors at work in the particular circumstance I was in. Since I no longer believe in the definition of spiritual that you likely would recognize, and you probably don't accept my judgment of the purely humanist nature of the experience, I put the world spiritual in quotes so that it would be obvious that the word itself was subject to some disagreement.

I suppose I could have pulled a Packer and referred to my so-called spiritual experience, but I chose not to as a matter of personal preference. ;-)

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Please note that I didn't include '"spiritual" reactions' anywhere in my partial list, and I'm not sure what you mean by that phrase.

Thank you for illustrating my point. In my TBM days I would have understood spiritual experiences to include "personal revelation, family revelation, answers to personal and collective prayers, the peace of the Spirit, the lifting of the burden of sin, changes in his/her foundational nature as a consequence of repentance, miraculous healings, prophecy, visions, the joy of service, unconditional love from both family and the community of Saints, priesthood power, the power of fasting, the peace and joy of the temple, inspiration from daily scripture reading, etc." I am unsure how to take the fact that you apparently do not, but if so then it just reinforces what I said in my previous reply to DaddyG.

Having experienced what I have, I personally wouldn't wish to live without direct answers to prayers, personal revelation, or the ability to use priesthood authority to bless others, for example, but I can certainly respect that you don't personally find any interest in keeping such things in your life. To each his own. In the end, I guess it comes down to what we like most.

If I still believed that I had in fact received direct answers to prayers, personal revelation, wielded actual, non-imaginary priesthood power to bless others, I'd probably agree with you. I no longer do, however, and I don't value the imagining of such things with the same enthusiasm that you value what you regard as your very real experience of such things.

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My next question for young LDS, or even older LDS, is what kind of Mormon do you identify as? Are you orthodox? TBM? Liberal? LGBT? Moderate? Unorthodox?

To be quite honest, I don't think I am any of those, but rather a semilogous mixture of them.

I am a TBM believer, but not a dogmatist, nor a skeptic.

I am moderate, critical of positions too far in either direction.

I am unorthodox in tradition, but mostly orthodox in beliefs. There are some exceptions.

I believe in a strong and personal testimony and relationship with God.

I guess I don't really align up with any of those... perhaps what I align up with most is the 'New Generation' Mormons. We aren't quite as connected culturally, I think. We still have the faith... but we aren't the same. We base our testimonies on personal experience accompanied with faith, I think. We have strong testimonies but we can be more independent of culture if we choose... or we can choose to hide in it, as well, I suppose. It is hard to describe. But Father has done quite a bit... those at institute have strong testimonies... so did those at seminary. He is preparing us, I guess =P.

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I keep thinking about this. If a young person in the Church has experienced personal revelation, family revelation, answers to personal and collective prayers, the peace of the Spirit, the lifting of the burden of sin, changes in his/her foundational nature as a consequence of repentance, miraculous healings, prophecy, visions, the joy of service, unconditional love from both family and the community of Saints, priesthood power, the power of fasting, the peace and joy of the temple, inspiration from daily scripture reading, etc., why would s/he leave (or allow it to leave him/her)? If a young person hasn't experienced these things in the Church, regardless of who may be at fault, hasn't s/he 'missed the point?'

I'm not suggesting that the individual leave.

As for the second question...not at all. Our spiritual journeys are all different. We are not all required to believe the exact same way.

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To be quite honest, I don't think I am any of those, but rather a semilogous mixture of them. I am a TBM believer, but not a dogmatist, nor a skeptic. I am moderate, critical of positions too far in either direction. I am unorthodox in tradition, but mostly orthodox in beliefs. There are some exceptions. I believe in a strong and personal testimony and relationship with God. I guess I don't really align up with any of those... perhaps what I align up with most is the 'New Generation' Mormons. We aren't quite as connected culturally, I think. We still have the faith... but we aren't the same. We base our testimonies on personal experience accompanied with faith, I think. We have strong testimonies but we can be more independent of culture if we choose... or we can choose to hide in it, as well, I suppose. It is hard to describe. But Father has done quite a bit... those at institute have strong testimonies... so did those at seminary. He is preparing us, I guess =P.

I didn't mean to suggest that you couldn't be a mixed bag of identities. Thank you for sharing.

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If I still believed that I had in fact received direct answers to prayers, personal revelation, wielded actual, non-imaginary priesthood power to bless others, I'd probably agree with you. I no longer do, however, and I don't value the imagining of such things with the same enthusiasm that you value what you regard as your very real experience of such things.

I think this is where you lose me. Can you please help me fill in the missing step?

One afternoon a Church member named Joe is called upon to give a blessing to a family member who is blind. During the course of the blessing, he is inspired to promise the man his sight. The man's sight returns.

One morning, on Joe's way to work, he hears a voice tell him not to get on the train because someone back in the train station needs his help. He goes back into the train station and finds a schoolboy in the corner with his calf muscle ripped off from having ridden on the outside of the train. The boy's been left there to bleed out and die since he has no money to pay for an ambulance to hospital. Joe carries the boy to a police station several blocks away and asks the police to help with transport, promising to pay for both that and the necessary medical care. The police agree to help but tell Joe that he'll have to wait til their petrol truck arrives since they have no fuel for any of the vehicles. During the wait, the boy, who's still bleeding profusely, turns blue and stops breathing multiple times. Joe gives the boy a blessing, and immediately the colour returns to his cheeks, and he remains breathing and conscious for the next hour it takes to get to hospital. At the hospital, it takes five units of blood to get him stablised, and the doctors say they have no idea how he survived with so little blood left in him.

Whilst working overseas, Joe has a deep and abiding impression that he needs to quit his job and be with his parents. He checks with his parents; they're fine. Worried that they'll think he's crazy, he nonetheless quits his job and starts home. In the middle of the longest flight, he's awoken by a feeling of extreme peace, and a voice says, 'Don't worry. It's your mother. She's sick, and she will be for some time, but, in the end, she'll be fine.' When Joe arrives at his parent's house after more than 24 hours of traveling, he learns that his mum was admitted to hospital only hours before with a systemic infection. She's in hospital for eight months, but then she recovers completely.

Missing step.

Joe no longer believes he actually experienced any of these things or any of the multiple hundreds like them.

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No, indeed. But I have a hard time imagining why a person who has experienced the might and power and glory of the Restored Gospel wouldn't cling to it with a death grip.

And this is where they lose me. How do you rationalize away such experiences.

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I'm not going to tell Joe what he did or did not experience, but I will tell you that the recitation of such anecdotes about what someone else is supposed to have experienced carries very little weight with me. People can and do claim all sorts of things. Some of these people are lying, some are delusional, and some merely are a little over-enthusiastic and the story assumes a grander stature in its eventual retelling. And it's entirely possible that Joe experienced everything exactly as you say, and that it was God who made it all happen. If that's true, then good for Joe.

But those sorts of things have never happened to me. Let me tell you some of the things that have.

When I was a teenager, I had an experience where a girl at school challenged my beliefs with some extremely well-thought out questions, and I was quite disturbed. In truth, I was a little scared, because I didn't know how to counter what she'd said that challenged my beliefs. This caused me to retreat inward and attempt to reassure myself that I really did believe, and that my faith was strong. Then I recalled the sayings in the Bible where faith the size of a mustard seed could move mountains, or Peter failed to walk on water because he doubted and was unwilling to "execute" on his faith. It occurred to me that I should attempt to walk on water. I came up with all sorts of reasons why I didn't need to do this, but these reasons disquieted me because I could not exclude the thought that I was "chickening out" because I didn't really have faith. Eventually I concluded that I could only prove to myself that I really did have faith by attempting to really do it. Sort of "put up or shut up". So walked down to the pond that was across the street, approached the edge of it, and looked down into the water. I replayed the internal argument and just knew that if I really had faith, I wouldn't just try walking on the water, I would step out onto it with full expectation of success and do it. So I stepped out onto the water... and my foot broke the surface and came to rest in the mud of the shallows, water up to my calf.

I then had to figure out how to react to this. On the one hand, I'd failed in walking on water despite "knowing" that it was not only possible, but that I needed to do it, and that if my faith was sufficient, it would work. I'd proven that my faith was sufficient by actually trying it, full of faith in God, and that posed a problem for my belief. On the other hand, I'd executed on my faith by actually manning up and taking that step. This was a tremendously powerful feeling. So my mind found a way to dwell on the second hand, while not spending much time thinking about the first hand.

On my mission I had the experience I mentioned previously, where I'd been reading the BoM in German for the first time for several months, and then my companion got sick and we spent a lot of time at home for a week or so. I read the BoM intensely and with enthusiasm, and managed to get from somewhere in Alma to the end in a day and a half or so. When I finished I experienced a sort of physical high, a warm feeling all over my body, excitement about the BoM, a truly unique (thus far in my life) and powerful sensation, and I recall thinking to myself "wow, this is it! This is what it feels like!" I sort of rode around on a cloud for a while after that, recalling the feeling I had, so sure that this was the Holy Ghost giving me that promised witness. Well, a few years later I experienced pretty much the same thing after an 18-hour or so reading marathon where I completed the final "Black Company" series book by Glenn Cook in a single day. This series is not, shall we say, exactly conducive to the Spirit...

Hmm, that's odd. The mental enthusiasm, the bliss, the warm feeling, the euphoria I experienced when I put that book down was unmistakeably the same, or as nearly so as matters, to what I'd experienced at the end of the BoM that I had to do a little research into euphoria and what triggers it, and it turns out that some of the factors I read about triggering euphoria were present in both episodes. So, what's more likely, that the Holy Spirit was whispering to my mind that the Black Company series was true, or that the Book of Mormon "confirmation" experience was actually just a false interpretation of a mental experience caused by other factors?

Here's another one for you, from my mission. Near the end of my mission, in my last month, we were let in the door by an old woman. She was suffering mightily from intense back pain. My heart was broken for her, as I watched her suffer in physical agony. I felt "inspired" somehow to offer her a priesthood blessing. I was also loathe to just offer up a lame "if it be thy will" type of blessing, because I felt like such blessings were usually just a cop-out by those who lacked the faith to put it all on the line and actually use their priesthood as Jesus and his apostles in the New Testament did, to really, really heal someone. So my companion annointed her with oil, and I began to bless her. The Spirit seemed so strong, and I commanded the woman to be healed and to arise and be free from her back pain. The emotion was strong in the room, and I must say, my companion seemed dumbfounded, I was nearly overcome with emotion and the "Spirit", and the woman herself cried and when I asked her if her back pain was gone, said it was. I then challenged her to baptism on the spot and she said she would be baptised. My companion and I then took our leave and told her we'd be back the next day.

As we left my companion and I both seemed to be thinking the same thing, which was "holy crap that really just happened!" So the next day we went back to see the woman, fully expecting her to greet us with joy on her face, free from the agony she'd been suffering from for so long. Instead she was in agony, and extremely angry at me. I guess you can interpret this a couple of different ways: the woman didn't have enough faith, and so the blessing, which apparently had initially succeeded, reversed course and failed instead. Or we had managed to create an atmosphere where we'd induced a sort of hysteria in both ourselves and the woman, and at the climax of that hysteria had pronounced the miraculous blessing of healing, and the woman had been carried away in the moment and thought her pain was gone, but once the hysteria wore off realized it was still there, and that she'd been duped, for lack of a better word. I guess you be the judge. As for me and my companion, we were both badly shaken to the core, and I don't recall that we ever spoke another word about it to each other, for fear of the questions that would be raised.

Here's another experience from my life and experience of the "spiritual". I woke up several times as a teenager with Satan or one of his minions sitting on my chest, pinning me to the bed, unable to move or speak, with intense fear as I realized what was going on. I fell back on my training, and thought (because I could not speak) a rebuke of the devil in the name of Jesus Christ, and in a short time the Evil One departed and I was freed. This happened multiple times during my Freshman year at BYU in my dorm room, and lead to me being so desirous of receiving the Melchezedek Priesthood so that I would have the power of commanding the spirit to depart, that I had my uncle ordain me an elder during the second semester, rather than waiting till I got home so that my dad could do it. Dad, if you're reading this, yes, I had uncle G. ordain me, rather than you, because of my very real fear of attack by Satan.

Well, as some of you reading this no doubt have intuited already, what I describe here pretty much matches up exactly with sleep paralysis. It almost certainly was never an evil spirit in the first place, rather that was the delusion that occurred to my mind when it woke up, disoriented, paralyzed, and attempting to explain what was going on in terms that made sense within the culture I'd grown up in. I've since experienced sleep paralysis two or three times, but with the recognition of the symtoms I've just lain there and kind of observed myself experiencing it, and not called out (neither mentally or aloud) Jesus' name, invoked the priesthood, or anything else, and sure enough, within so many seconds the experience fades away and full range of motion returned, no harm done. Hmm.

One of my final experiences wasn't actually my experience at all, but rather an episode of introspect and examination of my beliefs after some conversations with a friend of mine from work, as he described to me his experience of the Holy Spirit revealing to him that the Roman Catholic Church really is God's true church, and that he was called to the priesthood, and that he should quit his job and become a priest. And he subsequently did in fact do that, and was rock-solid in his surety that God had in fact directly lead him to these conclusions. He'd been reading the Bible and praying about it, and experienced the still-small voice and whatnot (my description - he used probably more catholic terminology, but that was the import of what he was saying).

If I had been a better apologist back in those days I might have come up with something like "that was the Holy Ghost confirming the truth of those specific things that he believed that were in fact true", or "perhaps becoming a Roman Catholic priest really was the best path for him during this life, and it will bring him closer to Christ so that he's more ready to accept the LDS faith in the Spirit World" or something like that. I wasn't that clever though. Instead, I saw the argument staring back at me that perhaps this sort of self-diagnosis of "revelation through the Holy Spirit" was simply a fairly common phenomenon in Christian culture, and that not only was my friend wrongly attributing his ideas and epiphanies as revelation from a source outside of himself, but that perhaps all of my own personal "revelations" had been of a similar nature. I wasn't quite ready to accept this conclusion at that time, but I was honest enough with myself to recognize that that was a possibility I might be forced to confront more closely someday. It's a conclusion I've since accepted as almost certainly correct.

Anyhow, the point is that some anonymous guy on the Internet can tell me all the "Joe Experienced a Miracle" stories he wants, but they not only don't agree with my own experiences of the "Spirit", but in fact do not seem to be borne out in practice, on a daily basis, amongst Mormons in general. I've seen no evidence that truly blind people regained their sight, that amputees regained a limb, etc. I've never seen any evidence that people blessed by the Mormon priesthood recover from injuries, illnesses, etc. at any different rates that non-blessed people undergoing similar standards of medical care.

I've also experienced a lot episodes where I have realized that things I felt were true based feelings of inspiration or whatever, were not really true. And I've seen this especially often in other people, particularly people who claim the truth of the global flood of Noah, anti-evolution stuff, and so on. Apparently it's pretty easy to be convinced that one's beliefs are true, and confirmed by the Creator of the Universe, and yet be wrong about this. I recognized this, and admitted that it was just as likely to be true about myself as about anyone else. With all of these experiences and realizations, I simply cannot take "the Spirit" seriously anymore. I think all of these things are better explained without reference to the supernatural. I realize that Deborah, and Tamba Tuhan, and whoever else, find this mind-boggling, but it's very true. It's exceedingly easy for me not to value "the Spirit" in my life, since I honestly and sincerely don't believe anymore that the Spirit exists.

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But those sorts of things have never happened to me. Let me tell you some of the things that have.

When I was a teenager, I had an experience where a girl…

On my mission I had the experience…

Here's another one for you, from my mission...

Here's another experience from my life…

One of my final experiences…

I've also experienced a lot episodes…

With all of these experiences and realizations, I simply cannot take "the Spirit" seriously anymore.

Sethbag I'm not going to tell you what you did or did not experience, but I will tell you that the recitation of such anecdotes about what you supposedly experienced carries very little weight with me. People, including you, can and do claim all sorts of things. Some of these people are lying, some are delusional, and some merely are a little over-enthusiastic and the story assumes a grander stature in its eventual retelling, it is interesting to consider which category you fall into, have you considered which category you fall into?

The point is that you can tell all the stories you want, but they dont agree with my own experiences or the experiences of many others on this board. Your post lacks any semblence of legitimate critical thinking, reason or logic and gives no one any basis to suppose that your views are valid in any way. Which category do your stories fall into?

My views, unlike yours, are based on reason, logic, critical thinking and are borne out in practice on a daily basis. Perhaps you find yourself in the unfortunate position of openly flying in the face of reality because you have not seen the evidence I and many others have seen. I have spoken to the man, and his family, who was cured of blindness by Matthew Cowley, I have two nieces who regrew bellybuttons after having them surgically removed, and I have seen evidence that people blessed with the priesthood recover from injuries and illnesses. I have seen it, done it, experienced it - measurable, repeatable, observable. The fact that you haven’t reflects your lack of experience only, it provides no evidence of anything other than what you lack and it certainly does not reflect reality. What category do your stories fall into?

The fact that your stories recounted childish sign seeking exercises and intellectual deductions that lacked...well....anything truly intellectual is beyond sad in light of the fact that these weak events shaped your mystic world view. Perhaps relying on a crystal ball is superior to relying on measurable, repeatable and observable experiences. Perhaps the mystic mumbo jumbo you practice is superior to logic, reason and critical thinking. Perhaps, but.....actually no, there is no perhaps.

So which category is it Sethbag, where do you fit, are you lying, delusional or a little over-enthusiastic? Your stated options, not mine.

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And this is where they lose me. How do you rationalize away such experiences.

How would anyone of any other religion who converts to the LDS faith rationalize away all of their other religious experiences?

"Rationalizing it away" isn't a very good way to put it. Having another perfectly logical explanation is more along the right line.

Atheists are just as susceptible to religious experiences as other people. Particularly when in groups, people react with and share the emotions of others. A good example would be to think of people who go to a funeral and cry or are overwhelmed even though they didn't know the deceased.

The same thing happens at religious ceremonies. It doesn't even matter which religion. This is something akin to what Fawn Brodie uses to explain the statement of the Witnesses, who never saw the plates with their real eyes, but with their "spiritual" sight. It also explains why people speak in tongues together, have visions together, etc.

I was just reading another thread on another board that went into explaining the materialistic aspects of religious experiences quite well. I seem to think they even acknowledge the value of religious experiences, but demonstrated how they were unreliable to generating truthful claims about anything and were not proof of any kind of metaphysical power interacting with our minds, but proof of how our minds are the minds of social creatures and our instincts will always be to fit in and identify with a group, even if it means deceiving ourselves.

Of course, you wouldn't be interested in any of those explanations, but, the point is that they are there. There are plenty of perfectly reasonable ways to explain religious experiences that do not involve including God in the equation.

Furthermore, no Mormon has yet to explain why their religious experiences are more capable of generating truthful claims compared to any other religion. Maybe you can offer us an explanation of your rationalization of how your religion is more true and more reliable than all of the others.

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How would anyone of any other religion who converts to the LDS faith rationalize away all of their other religious experiences?

Considering that all previous religious experiences led me to the LDS faith there was no rationalization, just a completion of a process.

no Mormon has yet to explain why their religious experiences are more capable of generating truthful claims compared to any other religion

Having been a member of other churches and having known many faithful members of other churches through the years I know that such experiences are different. Truth claims of non-LDS are usually centered around a testimony of God and Christ. LDS have a testimony of that plus that there is a restored church with Priesthood authority. Others claim there is no one true church and so they do not have a testimony based on that.

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"My views, unlike yours, are based on reason, logic, critical thinking and are borne out in practice on a daily basis."

You do realize how insulting this is, don't you? I'm happy that you have had those faith building (actually it would be knowledge, wouldn't it?) experiences BUT other's haven't. I've had something similar to Sethbag's experiences and I DON'T equate it with sign-seeking. At one point, I thought I had seen miracles, but upon gaining more experience in the world, realized that it wasn't. Admitting that to myself has been a painful experience. That doesn't mean I can explain away everything that has happened to me, and some are still sacred...but to be so dismissive of others....it doesn't show well on religion or the faith that you claim to have. Even the founder of the Church said that he wouldn't believe it if it didn't happen to him. Congratulations on your amazing religious experiences, but you know that you cannot transfer those to others nor should you dismiss their lives and their experiences.

From Evenescence --- New Way to Bleed.

So go and tell all your friends

That I'm a failure underneath

If it makes you feel like a bigger man.

But it's my-my heart, my life

That you're calling a lie.

I've played this game before, And I can't take anymore!

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Kemara, you accuse me of childish sign-seeking, probably with respect to the anecdote from my teenage years where I attempted to walk on water. You can think whatever you want, and since you seem determined to think the worst of me, then go ahead and knock yourself out. I honestly couldn't care less what you think about me. I will just tell you that for me it was an intensely meaningful episode, where I wrestled long and hard with the question of my faith, and whether I really had faith or not. If I was sign-seeking, then I was seeking proof of myself whether I really believed what I said I believed, or just said I did.

I'm satisfied in my life that I took the Mormon gospel message seriously, and really acted on it in good faith. I really believed that the priesthood gave me the power to exercise Godly power in his name, if only I was faithful enough to take it seriously and do it, and I did it. I think that only because I was as willing to exercise the power in the way the scriptures described it working was I able, eventually, to look at it and realize that it just doesn't really work. You can say I just wasn't doing it right, or I wasn't righteous enough, or whatever, but I was doing everything I knew how to do to be a faithful believer, missionary, priesthood holder, patriarch of my family, and so forth. If I wasn't "doing it right" then at least I was doing it to the best of my ability and knowledge, and faith, and this included studying the scriptures many times over and attempting to internalize their messages. I was 36 years old when I finally "crossed over" from belief in the LDS Church to unbelief in it or any other church, so it's not like I just believed for a few months and then bolted.

If I'm wrong, and there really is a God, and it's really Mormon God, and I have to stand before him one day and account for myself, I will feel no shame at all in how I've approached faith in my life. If God really exists, then he set me up with the mind that I have, and despite my best efforts at what it means to be a faithful LDS, the mind this God set me up with viewed the evidence eventually as indicated that he almost certainly doesn't really exist. I feel like I've taken things seriously, and made serious choices based on what serious contemplation of the various arguments, and the evidence, suggest to me is correct. That's all any of us can do.

One more thing. This is the second time you've accused me of looking into a crystal ball. What the heck are you talking about? I realize that in your attempts at casting doubt on whether I ever truly believed correctly, or acted faithfully, or executed on a correct understanding of faith in God, or whatever, you seem determined to come to the worst possible conclusions, and that looking into a crystal ball is some metaphor for how you think I've acted, but the metaphor is lost on me. I honestly have no friggin clue what you're talking about.

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I've also experienced a lot episodes where I have realized that things I felt were true based feelings of inspiration or whatever, were not really true. And I've seen this especially often in other people, particularly people who claim the truth of the global flood of Noah, anti-evolution stuff, and so on. Apparently it's pretty easy to be convinced that one's beliefs are true, and confirmed by the Creator of the Universe, and yet be wrong about this. I recognized this, and admitted that it was just as likely to be true about myself as about anyone else. With all of these experiences and realizations, I simply cannot take "the Spirit" seriously anymore. I think all of these things are better explained without reference to the supernatural. I realize that Deborah, and Tamba Tuhan, and whoever else, find this mind-boggling, but it's very true. It's exceedingly easy for me not to value "the Spirit" in my life, since I honestly and sincerely don't believe anymore that the Spirit exists.

I understand your position and I can grasp some of of the processes that you have gone through to get to your present position. As you have stated, you are not alone. Many an individual has walked that same path before you and will also walk after you are long gone from this earth. The gospel of Jesus Christ is for those who are downtrodden and feel a void in their lives. It is also for the wise who have seen the limited knowledge and understanding of man. If you are happy in your place, then be at peace. However, if you ever do sense that feeling of utter abandonment and loneliness of those who do not know God, then take the time to talk to God again. He will always be there to welcome you back. Merry Christmas

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You do realize how insulting this is, don't you?

Are you going to censure Sethbag for his similar insults now?

I've had something similar to Sethbag's experiences and I DON'T equate it with sign-seeking.

You can choose to equate Sethbags and your experiences however you want, and I will choose to equate them however I like. You and he have done the same to me and mine, so fairs fair surely.

Congratulations on your amazing religious experiences, but you know that you cannot transfer those to others nor should you dismiss their lives and their experiences.

That cuts both ways does it not?

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By the way, I thought I'd link you guys to http://www.saibaba.w...racles.htm this page documenting four miracles performed by Sathya Sai Baba. Please note that the stories include Sai Baba miraculously telling someone to go see his father who was having a health crisis Sai Baba couldn't have known about, and then was eventually healed by Sai Baba. The last anecdote on this page involves Sai Baba raising a man from the dead.

This isn't just some guy from 2000 years ago, about whom anyone could write anything they want and there'd be no way to investigate it. Sathya Sai Baba died like 8 months ago! There are tons of miracle stories people pass around about this guy, who were there, saw it happen, it happened to them, etc. who are still alive at this very moment. I have no doubt that many people are convinced of Sai Baba's divine power. I also have no doubt that many, if not most of you who believe you've had your own miracle stories, probably do not believe in Sai Baba's miracles. I can see no good reason why I should disbelieve the Sai Baba miracle stories but believe those I read here in this thread. I'm not trying to be offensive here, I'm just pointing out that miracle stories may be taken very seriously by those who believe they've experienced them, but they have very little convincing power to others, and rightly so, IMHO.

And a big takeaway from these things is that the Sathya Sai Baba stories should be taken seriously by anyone who believes in miracles. I believe that the fact that people do believe they've witnessed these miracles through Sai Baba says a lot about how people think, how they process information, how they build the lenses that they see and interpret the world through, and so forth. And I believe that whatever I learn from the Sai Baba thing probably applies to my own experiences, and the experiences of those around me too. To argue otherwise will probably involve special pleading.

Edited by Sethbag
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I understand your position and I can grasp some of of the processes that you have gone through to get to your present position. As you have stated, you are not alone. Many an individual has walked that same path before you and will also walk after you are long gone from this earth. The gospel of Jesus Christ is for those who are downtrodden and feel a void in their lives. It is also for the wise who have seen the limited knowledge and understanding of man. If you are happy in your place, then be at peace. However, if you ever do sense that feeling of utter abandonment and loneliness of those who do not know God, then take the time to talk to God again. He will always be there to welcome you back. Merry Christmas

Thanks, and Merry Christmas to you and your family too!

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By the way, I thought I'd like you guys to this"]http://www.saibaba.w...racles.htm]this page documenting four miracles performed by Sathya Sai Baba. Please note that the stories include Sai Baba miraculously telling someone to go see his father who was having a health crisis Sai Baba couldn't have known about, and then was eventually healed by Sai Baba. The last anecdote on this page involves Sai Baba raising a man from the dead.

This isn't just some guy from 2000 years ago, about whom anyone could write anything they want and there'd be no way to investigate it. Sathya Sai Baba died like 8 months ago! There are tons of miracle stories people pass around about this guy, who were there, saw it happen, it happened to them, etc. who are still alive at this very moment. I have no doubt that many people are convinced of Sai Baba's divine power. I also have no doubt that many, if not most of you who believe you've had your own miracle stories, probably do not believe in Sai Baba's miracles. I can see no good reason why I should disbelieve the Sai Baba miracle stories but believe those I read here in this thread. I'm not trying to be offensive here, I'm just pointing out that miracle stories may be taken very seriously by those who believe they've experienced them, but they have very little convincing power to others, and rightly so, IMHO.

And a big takeaway from these things is that the Sathya Sai Baba stories should be taken seriously by anyone who believes in miracles. I believe that the fact that people do believe they've witnessed these miracles through Sai Baba says a lot about how people think, how they process information, how they build the lenses that they see and interpret the world through, and so forth. And I believe that whatever I learn from the Sai Baba thing probably applies to my own experiences, and the experiences of those around me too. To argue otherwise will probably involve special pleading.

Did you think that only the Son of God performed miracles? Do you recall that he said that greater things will be done by those who followed him? I don't go out of my way to find mircales, but I don't discount them when I see them or hear of them.

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Did you think that only the Son of God performed miracles? Do you recall that he said that greater things will be done by those who followed him? I don't go out of my way to find mircales, but I don't discount them when I see them or hear of them.

No, I didn't think that only the Son of God performed miracles, but I did think that only those called by prophecy, by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, could do so. I was taught that the priesthood had to be conferred upon a person by those authorized to do so, and the keys for doing so were found only by the President of the LDS Church. Such priesthood conferred upon a man the power to act in God's name, and to perform miracles and so forth. The only other people on Earth, or so I was taught, who could go about performing miracles did so under a different priesthood than the one we held, ie: they do it with the priesthood of Satan.

The way I was taught to believe by my LDS church teachers and family, and upbringing, it was the priesthood by which these things were done, and there were only the priesthood of God, or the priesthood of Satan, and a true miracle-worker either held the one, or the other. So, by that logic, if I believed that Sathya Sai Baba had truly performed the miracles attributed to him, he had to have done it by the power of Satan, as he certainly has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, or Jesus's authorized righthand-man on Earth, the LDS Church President.

I'm curious what sort of religious context you understand the miracles of Sai Baba in. Do you believe that miracles come about through the priesthood, or do you believe something else? How do you explain such "external" miracles outside of an LDS priesthood context?

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To tie in the discussion with Storm Rider with the recent conversation with Deborah and Tamba Tuhan, they were talking about how anyone would want to not have the fruits of the Spirit, the miracles, the revelations, the inspirations, and so forth, in their lives. And they clearly meant these things to be available only within the context of LDS church membership and obedience to the LDS church plan.

I'm curious about what Storm Rider is saying, because it contradicts not only what I was taught about the nature of miracles and priesthood by the church, but it also opens up the door to the idea that a person could get the miracles, the revelations, the divine power, whatever just fine outside the LDS Church, just by going out and looking up the latest Sathya Sai Baba character. It doesn't sound to me like Storm Rider is on the same page as Deborah and Tamba Tuhan, and I'd like to see this further explained.

Edited by Sethbag
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Sethbag, you don't know the Savior through miracles, you know him through the Holy Ghost. I think that's what Storm Rider is trying to say. At a time, the devil will perform miracles, but we won't follow him because he is not Christ, and we know so through the Holy Ghost which Christ has given us. We must know Christ for who he is, for his charity, and meekness, and kindness, before we look at the miracles =).

Edited by TAO
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To tie in the discussion with Storm Rider with the recent conversation with Deborah and Tamba Tuhan, they were talking about how anyone would want to not have the fruits of the Spirit, the miracles, the revelations, the inspirations, and so forth, in their lives. And they clearly meant these things to be available only within the context of LDS church membership and obedience to the LDS church plan.

How do you come to that conclusion. I never said it. I in fact had many miracles, inspiration, etc prior to finding the church. They point is having found the true church everything has context. I know many non-LDS who have had very spiritual and miraculous experiences. But what I am seeing is people here who say they once had those experiences are now denying they were in any way miraculous. Finding the church and the additional truths it gives us doesn't in any way take away from the things that happened before or continue to happen to others. What I am questioning is why anyone who has such experiences whether LDS or not would one day say they didn't happen but they were all a figment of the imagination.

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What I am questioning is why anyone who has such experiences whether LDS or not would one day say they didn't happen but they were all a figment of the imagination.

I'm curious what about the explanation I already gave you did you not understand? I realize this can come across as snarky, but I honestly don't mean it in that way. You already expressed in a previous post that you didn't understand how people could say they'd experienced miracles or spiritual experiences and then later on say that they really hadn't. I posted a veritable wall of text with examples of why this can occur as seen from my own experience and perspective. And now you're asking the same question again. Either I didn't explain myself clearly, or my reply was too long and you didn't read it, or you reject my explanation as not being honest, or something.

Again, I'm not trying to be snarky here. I'm asking whether you'd really like to understand this thing you've said you don't understand, or not. If you would, then I can help you come to a better understanding.

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