Cooking With Alcohol

[krose]

I do know that my wife's ancestors were some of the immigrants from Switzerland with the calling of growing grapes and making sacramental wine in "Utah's Dixie," and that was around the turn of the century. I don't know when, exactly, they were informed they had to find other employment.

[Cobalt-70]

Wikipedia lists 1912 as the official church wide end to the use of wine in the sacrament, but it provides no citation. www.dummies.com lists the beginning of the practive of substituting water for wine as 1906, and ties it to the temperance movement. But, again, not citation is given.

If we are talking about the common practice of rank-and-file Mormons, I think both 1912 and 1906 are too late. My best estimate is that the change occurred in the 1880s for the majority of Mormons, but that the practice continued in some parts of Utah into at least the 1890s, and even later among the upper echelons of the church hierarchy. It was not until 1892, for example, that the St. George stake officially discontinued the use of wine in sacrament meetings. (See https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:qyhn3tJxdDQJ:https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/003-74-84.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgTGbnYTokUVFmefBOat8Ztni9PQVhXgzLN0B9vSlDipspNOwMmIkshJuVHbSkpIrMsayJXSDTfIX2GSXkU9QAwlKOoL0Uvcj9CGGw1Efcl1kTE-_m1bdjDXSLZL_z___3fmwt5&sig=AHIEtbR0oupQ4n-q8UkItvHRX0LO4INAsg.) Moreover, St. George was near the center of the church's "Dixie Wine" district, and would likely have been one of the last places to use wine for sacramental purposes, because Mormon wine was abundant in that area, at least until the 1880s, and Mormons in the area drank wine socially. The practice of using wine apparently continued much later, however, within the church leadership, because the First Presidency and Twelve continued to use wine in their temple meetings until 1906 (which is probably where the 1906 date comes from). (See http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V14N03_80.pdf, p. 79.)

As far as the church outside of "Dixie" is concerned, it seems that the practice of substituting water for wine became the almost exclusive rule some time around 1880, or perhaps a few years sooner. In 1880, a church publication discussed why water was used instead of wine. (See http://books.google.com/books?id=0jIEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA803.) All the references I can find from the 1880s and later appear to say that Mormons only used water. (See, e.g., http://books.google.com/books?id=szMEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA335, a church publication from 1884.) Also of note, the October 1880 General Conference was when the Word of Wisdom was first made officially binding on the church.

Always, however, even from early times, the church would use water whenever Mormon-produced wine was not available. In 1870, there is a reference that says that water was "occasionally" used when it was impossible to get wine. (See http://books.google.com/books?id=NukCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA48.) But the practice of using water probably depended on where the congregation resided, and whether it had access to wine from Mormon wineries. Some congregations, without access to Mormon wine, probably used water almost exclusively long before 1870. Gunnison describes the use of water as early as 1852 (http://books.google.com/books?id=7UIqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA47), although I believe this was before Mormons had established Mormon wineries, and the use of water in those early times was viewed as a temporary practice. See also http://books.google.com/books?id=p35NAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA385 (one congregation of SLC Mormons circa 1865 was using water instead of wine "until the Mormons shall be able to obtain the pure juice of the grape.") In 1850, when wine was probably pretty scarce in the Utah territory, a reference stated that wine was used for sacrament only by the Mormon elite, but that most people used water. (See http://books.google.com/books?id=0kIqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA8.) A reference describing events from 1855 said that in weekly Sunday meetings at the SLC Bowery, where Brigham Young and the apostles attended and so did congregations of about 3000 people, they used water, because wine was too expensive (not surprising considering the number of people). (See http://books.google.com/books?id=GdXAP601msQC&pg=PA176.) Thus, any outsider who attended church as the Bowery would have noted that they always used water there, which would have been a different experience than someone who attended church in St. George from the 1860s to 1880s, where they apparently always used wine, and then went home and drank wine for dinner, too.

I don't know whether or not there was ever an official, church-wide announcement that wine could no longer be used, but it was used into the 20th century in isolated pockets. As late as 1906, the First Presidency and Twelve were still using wine, but they converted to water that year. As late as 1908, a church publication stated that "they may perhaps use wine" in "some of the vineyard districts of the country." (See http://books.google.com/books?id=_FEoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1235.) I doubt, however, that wine was used anywhere within the LDS Church after Prohibition began in 1920.

[Saints Alive]

Saints Alive:

I'd like to see a reference for that please.

I think any reference that I would be able to provide has already been listed, however I would like to clarify that when I said they used wine up until prohibition I meant the movement not the amendment.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Saints Alive

[jkwilliams]

Last summer when we still lived in Provo, we participated in a community garden, and because of good (or maybe bad) timing, we ended up with a huge amount of tomatoes, about 3 or 4 times as much as we had expected. In the past, we've always used my dad's recipe for spaghetti sauce, which calls for half a quart of red wine for each batch, making about 12 quarts of sauce. My wife said that her friend told her that grape juice makes a good substitute for the wine. I had my doubts, but we did the first batch with grape juice. Needless to say, we made the rest with wine. Whenever we use the sauce, my kids will say, "Oh, yuck, that's the grape juice batch."

 

Funny story: When we went to the state liquor store in Provo to get the wine, my wife said it was a little embarrassing that we had a parking sticker for the LDS Institute on the windshield. Just then a young couple pulled in next to our car, and their car also had an institute sticker. They ended up in line just ahead of us, and they looked pretty mortified to be buying wine. My guess was that they were canning, too.

[ERayR]

Would you consider drinking egg nog, eating cooked puddings, cookies, cakes, and the list goes on, just because one uses flavorings such as vanilla extract, maple extracts, lemon extract which are some are quite high in alcohol content to be against the Word of Wisdom?

Edited October 14, 2013 by ERayR

[ERayR]

Beer is from 5% to 8% alcohol so using one bottle in a recipe or a 1/4 cup of wine to some recipe and cooking for 15 to 20 minutes.  Doesn't seem like much difference.  It always amazes me when one worries about the alcohol in cooking with wine or other alcohol but thinks nothing of using Nyquil which is 25% alcohol.

Edited October 14, 2013 by ERayR

[thesometimesaint]

Would you consider drinking egg nog, eating cooked puddings, cookies, cakes, and the list goes on, just because one uses flavorings such as vanilla extract, maple extracts, lemon extract which are some are quite high in alcohol content to be against the Word of Wisdom?

 

Normal cooking eliminates much of the alcohol in extracts. But heat can't eliminate all of it.

 

They while having a very high proof, are of such low amounts the begin with, it wouldn't be a problem. The bigger problem would be the calories of the finished puddings, cookies, and cakes. We all like to eat. But anyway I don't believe we are absolutists when it comes to the WoW(Yeast breads, even cooked ones, have very small amounts of alcohol in them). 

 

Ps; Never use the imitation flavorings they are full of stuff that is even worse for you than the small amount of alcohol in the extracts is.

[jkwilliams]

I'm trying to imagine cooking with Nyquil.

[thesometimesaint]

YUCK.

[Scott Lloyd]

Last summer when we still lived in Provo, we participated in a community garden, and because of good (or maybe bad) timing, we ended up with a huge amount of tomatoes, about 3 or 4 times as much as we had expected. In the past, we've always used my dad's recipe for spaghetti sauce, which calls for half a quart of red wine for each batch, making about 12 quarts of sauce. My wife said that her friend told her that grape juice makes a good substitute for the wine. I had my doubts, but we did the first batch with grape juice. Needless to say, we made the rest with wine. Whenever we use the sauce, my kids will say, "Oh, yuck, that's the grape juice batch."

 

Funny story: When we went to the state liquor store in Provo to get the wine, my wife said it was a little embarrassing that we had a parking sticker for the LDS Institute on the windshield. Just then a young couple pulled in next to our car, and their car also had an institute sticker. They ended up in line just ahead of us, and they looked pretty mortified to be buying wine. My guess was that they were canning, too.

Why did you see a need to dredge up this thread from nearly two years ago?

[jkwilliams]

Why did you see a need to dredge up this thread from nearly two years ago?

 

I had no idea this was from two years ago, and I have no idea how I stumbled across it. If it's bad form to post on an old thread, I apologize.

[jkwilliams]

Maybe it showed up in the list of tagged threads. I dunno.

[Scott Lloyd]

I had no idea this was from two years ago, and I have no idea how I stumbled across it. If it's bad form to post on an old thread, I apologize.

Not bad form. Just irregular.

[jkwilliams]

Not bad form. Just irregular.

 

I think it is from the tagged threads list at the bottom of the page. I didn't even look at the date. It was just below the thread about coffee ice cream.

[Calm]

Would you consider drinking egg nog, eating cooked puddings, cookies, cakes, and the list goes on, just because one uses flavorings such as vanilla extract, maple extracts, lemon extract which are some are quite high in alcohol content to be against the Word of Wisdom?

I made my own vanilla extract, had to go to the provincial liquor store to get Everclear iirc.  I am not patient enough though to wait for it to develop so won't try that again.

[jkwilliams]

I made my own vanilla extract, had to go to the provincial liquor store to get Everclear iirc.  I am not patient enough though to wait for it to develop so won't try that again.

 

My daughter gave us homemade vanilla extract for Christmas. She said my SIL was really embarrassed when he bought the vodka from the state liquor store. It was delicious. Too bad we don't have more of it. Maybe I'll have to make some.

[ERayR]

I'm trying to imagine cooking with Nyquil.

 

Please attempt reading for comprehension.  Here, let me spell it out for you.  What I was pointing out is those who make such a fuss about cooking with alcoholic beverages and think nothing of using Nyquil.  Like old Uncles cold medicine that the kids were not allowed to have.

Edited October 14, 2013 by ERayR

[Stargazer]

Please attempt reading for comprehension.  Here, let me spell it out for you.  What I was pointing out is those who make such a fuss about cooking with alcoholic beverages and think nothing of using Nyquil.  Like old Uncles cold medicine that the kids were not allowed to have.

 

Gosh, I think he was trying for humor, ERayR!  I laughed at it, and I suggest you grow a sense of humor.  Or let it out to get some air, or something.

[Stargazer]

I just checked my wife's stash and yep she still has two quarts of Everclear.  She uses it to make herbal tinctures -- she's into herbal medicine.  Before this state (WA) got out of the business of selling alcohol, she even had a state license to buy 190+ proof booze for that purpose.  I once bought some vodka to make a licorice root tincture for stomach aches.  But every time my wife is watching a cooking show on TV and they bring in wine as an ingredient she gets grumpy at it, since she doesn't consider making food with alcohol to be OK with the WoW.  I myself am agnostic on the subject.  Meaning as long as it is just a very tiny fraction of the food item, I don't mind.

[Tacenda]

I just checked my wife's stash and yep she still has two quarts of Everclear. She uses it to make herbal tinctures -- she's into herbal medicine. Before this state (WA) got out of the business of selling alcohol, she even had a state license to buy 190+ proof booze for that purpose. I once bought some vodka to make a licorice root tincture for stomach aches. But every time my wife is watching a cooking show on TV and they bring in wine as an ingredient she gets grumpy at it, since she doesn't consider making food with alcohol to be OK with the WoW. I myself am agnostic on the subject. Meaning as long as it is just a very tiny fraction of the food item, I don't mind.

Oh my, this makes me feel only slightly better when recently my husband told me he is adding just a tiny bit of rum to his pop for his exteme stomach pain. This was a shock and I was totally sideswiped. He has been taking Percocet, but said this was working better. I feel it is my fault somewhat, ever since my faith crisis, he isn't taking things seriously anymore, like tithing and now the WoW! But he maintains a semi testimony still. I'm worried it'll get worse. I have two alcoholic brothers, therefore my fear at what might happen.

[Calm]

Oh my, this makes me feel only slightly better when recently my husband told me he is adding just a tiny bit of rum to his pop for his exteme stomach pain. This was a shock and I was totally sideswiped. He has been taking Percocet, but said this was working better. I feel it is my fault somewhat, ever since my faith crisis, he isn't taking things seriously anymore, like tithing and now the WoW! But he maintains a semi testimony still. I'm worried it'll get worse. I have two alcoholic brothers, therefore my fear at what might happen.

What causes the pain?  Strangely enough I have found Imodium to work well for some occasional stomach pain I get.  I take it with magnesium to counter act the actual effect and it quiets down the cramping.

[ERayR]

Gosh, I think he was trying for humor, ERayR!  I laughed at it, and I suggest you grow a sense of humor.  Or let it out to get some air, or something.

Sorry :sorry:

[Tacenda]

What causes the pain? Strangely enough I have found Imodium to work well for some occasional stomach pain I get. I take it with magnesium to counter act the actual effect and it quiets down the cramping.

That's the thing, we don't know. It started a few years ago. It was so bad at one time he just laid there for days on end. He had his gallbladder removed but it didn't really help and he's been checked for everything possible. He is taking a bunch of supplements and herbs, which have helped, but lately it's bothering him again. It's like a cork is in his butt and he can't release gas, and his stomach rumbles all the time, almost as if he has a witches brew brewin, Happy Halloween . I think it might be anxiety. But thanks for the tip, I'll see what he says. I'll be on his case about the alcohol, I don't think he'll do it anymore.

[Stargazer]

What causes the pain?  Strangely enough I have found Imodium to work well for some occasional stomach pain I get.  I take it with magnesium to counter act the actual effect and it quiets down the cramping.

 

If your husband doesn't have high blood pressure, he might try licorice.  ACTUAL licorice, not the artificial flavoring, which is really anise.  I had a bad stomach upset some time back -- don't know what it was, exactly, but taking licorice fixed it right up.  The thing about licorice is that it contains a phytochemical that can cause blood pressure to elevate a bit, and people with hypertension don't need that.

[sdc999]

I can say that I quite often grill out with alcohol.   And no, the heat does not eliminate the alcohol.  I never allow for my beer to get that close to the flames.