Personal Relationship?

[Senator]

With all my heart, and with all my soul, and with all my mind!

Ok,

Thks, just curious.....

[altersteve]

My testimony of the Savior's love burns inside me. I want to shout from the mountains and beg everyone who can hear me to please accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and just try the gospel. Just try it, it's delicious, you won't regret it! My heart aches with how much I wish the entire world could experience the love I have for Jesus and the love He has for me. I want to share with as many as will listen to me how being "encircled in the arms of His love" makes it possible for me to endure. I want to share how much courage I receive from the Lord to do the best I can in this life because no matter how many times I fall down trying He is always there to help me back up and to help me learn from the fall. And He never stops loving me and I am never alone. I love Jesus Christ and He deserves my witness to His amazing and neverending work in my life.

*applause*

Best post ever.

[mercyngrace]

My testimony of the Savior's love burns inside me. I want to shout from the mountains and beg everyone who can hear me to please accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and just try the gospel. Just try it, it's delicious, you won't regret it! My heart aches with how much I wish the entire world could experience the love I have for Jesus and the love He has for me. I want to share with as many as will listen to me how being "encircled in the arms of His love" makes it possible for me to endure. I want to share how much courage I receive from the Lord to do the best I can in this life because no matter how many times I fall down trying He is always there to help me back up and to help me learn from the fall. And He never stops loving me and I am never alone. I love Jesus Christ and He deserves my witness to His amazing and neverending work in my life.

That's awesome, Nominee. A spontaneously offered testimony is a powerful witness.

I've never been asked about my tesimony in an interview but if the way I live my life isn't enough of a testimony, then there's probably more to discuss than whether I can coherently put thoughts about my most profound relationship together on the spur of the moment.

Edited November 27, 2011 by mercyngrace

[Ron Beron]

I would agree with Mudcat and Mercy'n'grace. A personal relationship with him is something you want. What is meant by a personal relationship? It means that you pray to Father, and think of him as your Father, and treat him as you would your Father and your God. And we are supposed to be close to our fathers. =) And being close to Christ is to think of him similarly, though also as a brother. We are supposed to be close to our brothers as well =D.

I guess it all depends on what 'personal relationship' is, but to me... it means seeking to know him... and respect him... and love him... and to be like him, I guess.

So sort of 'personal relationship' like a family member... as you said, not 'buddy status', at least not for me =).

Best of Wishes,

No offenses intended,

-TAO

I can agree with this easily, but I am somewhat befuddled by the EV's discussion of a "personal relationship" with Jesus. It almost ignores the Father. Since they believe the two are indeed one then it would make sense.

[mercyngrace]

Didn't Elder Mckonkie speak out against having a personal relationship with Jesus? I don't have my Mormon Doctrine handy.

It was at a BYU devotional or fireside.

[altersteve]

I can agree with this easily, but I am somewhat befuddled by the EV's discussion of a "personal relationship" with Jesus. It almost ignores the Father. Since they believe the two are indeed one then it would make sense.

I don't see it as ignoring the Father at all. I rather see it as a profound example of their faith in Christ, just like their decision to display the cross as a symbol of their faith. I see that as an extremely heartfelt gesture, even though I disagree with it.

[Mudcat]

I can agree with this easily, but I am somewhat befuddled by the EV's discussion of a "personal relationship" with Jesus. It almost ignores the Father. Since they believe the two are indeed one then it would make sense.

We do believe they, along with the Holy Spirit are one God, but we don't believe that Jesus is the Father nor that the Father is the Son.

I don't think Evangelicals are ignoring the Father. Typically we pray to the Father in the name of the Son, prayer being the best mode for communication with God, then such prayers to the Father should be taken into account relationally.

[Nominee]

Thank you altersteve & mercyngrace for the warm reception of my bearing testimony!

I will bless the Lord at all times:

his praise shall continually be in my mouth.

~Psalm 34:1

[Ron Beron]

I don't see it as ignoring the Father at all. I rather see it as a profound example of their faith in Christ, just like their decision to display the cross as a symbol of their faith. I see that as an extremely heartfelt gesture, even though I disagree with it.

I can understand the sincerity, but sincerity doesn't equate with truth and I thought that is what we all sought. Paul in his writings saw God as all-loving, but as humans we could not return the love only show faith and hope. Paul uses the Greek word dikaisoune which Plato holds to be attribute of love and righteousness, a quality aspired to by humans but given only to God and denied to humans by Paul. In other word, God can love us, but humans are incapable of loving God in the same manner. We can show only righteousness. Only faith or pistis is the manner in which humans can approach God. Man can only show hope for God through his utter surrender of heart, will, and mind to Jesus. I don't necessarily agree with his views as I disagree with many of views because it means that it ultimately means we have little control over our own existence. Our ability to pursue goodness is abrogated by utter depravity and the only thing that saves us is our willingness to accept Jesus. In the OT God is revealed in His wrath against evil while in the NT only Jesus can overcome the wrath of God by his sacrifice.

[Ron Beron]

We do believe they, along with the Holy Spirit are one God, but we don't believe that Jesus is the Father nor that the Father is the Son.

I don't think Evangelicals are ignoring the Father. Typically we pray to the Father in the name of the Son, prayer being the best mode for communication with God, then such prayers to the Father should be taken into account relationally.

I try not to paint with too broad a stroke and realize I can be pretty obtuse at times and if mistaken I am sorry. When I was a Catholic I remember the emphasis was always on Jesus and God was so much a mystery as to be ignored. Something you have said has intrigued me. If the Jesus is not the Father nor vice versa then what is he? Is he held as the same substance of the Father or is he different?

[cdowis]

Not precisely on topic with the OP, but I have been somewhat bothered by recent "interviews" with Stake Presidents and other leaders where they ask me to share my testimony of Jesus. I first time I was asked this I was caught very off guard. My personal relationship has always been with my Father in Heaven. My Savior makes that relationship possible and it is through him that I may return to our Father, but the foundation of my relationship has always been with the Father.

This is what McConkie taught, and Christ always pointed us to the Father. My personal relationship is with the Father, developed through personal prayer. I do not pray to Christ, I do not speak to Him, but have a love and appreciation for His life and atonement as I read the scriptures.

[Mudcat]

I try not to paint with too broad a stroke and realize I can be pretty obtuse at times and if mistaken I am sorry. When I was a Catholic I remember the emphasis was always on Jesus and God was so much a mystery as to be ignored. Something you have said has intrigued me. If the Jesus is not the Father nor vice versa then what is he? Is he held as the same substance of the Father or is he different?

I think there is a great deal of consistency amongst Trinitarian theologians, of the view that they are of the same substance. Personally, I see holding to such a notion as difficult given that the same folks lend the word "immaterial" to God's nature, which seems to make this view a bit problematic. I think we often times create more issues than we resolve when we try to define something that is beyond our comprehension.

I don't have a clear answer for you though Ron. I know the Scriptures point towards the three being one, so this is what I accept. I don't pretend to know exactly how that all works and I am very thankful that the same Scriptures note that this is a bit of a mystery to us.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Mudcat

[altersteve]

I think there is a great deal of consistency amongst Trinitarian theologians, of the view that they are of the same substance. Personally, I see holding to such a notion as difficult given that the same folks lend the word "immaterial" to God's nature, which seems to make this view a bit problematic. I think we often times create more issues than we resolve when we try to define something that is beyond our comprehension.

I don't have a clear answer for you though Ron. I know the Scriptures point towards the three being one, so this is what I accept. I don't pretend to know exactly how that all works and I am very thankful that the same Scriptures note that this is a bit of a mystery to us.

Where does the Bible say that the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is a mystery?

[mercyngrace]

Elder James E. Faust's first address as an apostle was titled A Personal with the Savior. In it, he encourages us to develop and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ:

Recently in South America, a seasoned group of outstanding missionaries was asked, “What is the greatest need in the world?” One wisely responded: “Is not the greatest need in all of the world for every person to have a personal, ongoing, daily, continuing relationship with the Savior?” Having such a relationship can unchain the divinity within us, and nothing can make a greater difference in our lives as we come to know and understand our divine relationship with God.

We should earnestly seek not just to know about the Master, but to strive, as He invited, to be one with Him (see John 17:21), to “be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man” (Eph. 3:16). We may not feel a closeness with Him because we think of Him as being far away, or our relationship may not be sanctifying because we do not think of Him as a real person...

May I suggest five beginning, essential measures which will greatly clear the channel for a daily flow of “living water” from the very source of the spring, even the Redeemer Himself..

It's interesting that Elder McConkie's fireside address has gained wide recognition in some LDS circles although given to a local audience at BYU while President Faust's talk rarely gets a mention although given before the entire church in General Conference.

It's also interesting the Elder McConkie spoke of the personal relationship we desire with Christ in GC just a few years before the Pace incident.

He is our Friend, our Lawgiver, our King, and our Lord. We seek his face and desire to dwell in his presence. We are his people, the sheep of his fold.(April 1977 GC, Come Know the Lord Jesus)

I find it sad that someone would forego a relationship specifically cultivated to allow for friendship, advocacy, and compassionate succoring out of a mistaken sense of propriety. We don't pray to Christ but we most certainly should have an intimate relationship with Him.

It also strikes me a quite ironic that President Faust's talk as well as Dr. Pace's article What It Means to Know Christ are both available on lds.org while Elder McConkie's notorious rebuke is not (you can however, read it at byu.edu).

Edited November 28, 2011 by mercyngrace

[LeSellers]

Stephen Covey is not a General Authority, nor is he a serious scriptural scholar, but he does have significant insights into the Gospel on occasion. His book, The Divine Center, gives a useful perspective on this, as , I believe, did Elder M^cConkie's talk.

Neither one said we should not seek a personal relationship with the Savior. What they said was we should not seek such a relationship to the exclusion of such relationships with the rest of the Godhead. The difference is critical.

Lehi

[Nominee]

We don't pray to Christ but we most certainly should have an intimate relationship with Him.

Precisely. We do not pray to Christ, we do not worship Christ. We love him dearly, respect him greatly, know him intimately and thank him endlessly. I think that McCronkie, Pace & Faust are all in agreement. In reading McCronkie's "notorious rebuke" I felt that he simply misunderstood what Pace was saying an let his emotions get away from him. He showed us his humanity and imperfection. You said somewhere earlier in this thread (maybe this thread, maybe another) something about how McCronkie could have been better about it by first approaching Pace in which case the misunderstanding would have most likely been cleared up. I concur.

[altersteve]

We do not pray to Christ, we do not worship Christ.

Really? I do:

We believe in Christ. We worship Christ. We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal life.

Like President Hinckley, I worship the Lord Jesus Christ. I love Him and I have a personal relationship with Him. He is my Savior, and He is also my Father in almost every way God the Father is.

They are one.

Edited November 28, 2011 by altersteve

[Sargon]

I know a lot has already been said and that I'm late to the conversation, but I want to add my two cents here.

This is one of those areas where I have "holy envy" for our Evangelical friends' passion for Christ. I think that expressing one's status before God and Christ as a "personal relationship" is not only fitting but desirable. Our scriptures in several places describe various individuals as being the "friend(s)" of God. To me, exaltation (theosis) is nothing more nor less than becoming a close friend to God and thus sharing in the fulness of his glory.

I have absolutely no qualms, as a faithful Latter-day Saint, saying that I worship Jesus Christ. I don't find it the least bit blasphemous and I am greatly puzzled by the LDS majority that is hesitant to see things that way. Jesus Christ is our God, as expressed numerous times throughout the Book of Mormon and D&C, and if we don't worship our God I don't know what we are doing with him.

[Sargon]

This also seems like an appropriate place to make a comment about our tendency to refer to Christ as our "elder brother". This phrase usually, though not explicitly, assumes a literal "spiritual offspring" model for our relationship to God and to each other. This is surely the most widespread view among North American Mormons (I can't confidently comment on the rest of the LDS world). There are other models that are viable.

At any rate, referring to Jesus Christ as our "elder brother" is perhaps the closest thing we've got to expressing our love for Christ as a "personal relationship." The phrase "elder brother" in reference to Christ signifies a closeness and love that is found in an immediate family. We can all appreciate the tender relationship that exists in a proper brother/sister brother/brother relationship. It is personal. It certainly is not a vision of Christ as a cosmic creator too busy and important to dedicate time and effort to a personal relationship with us, his "younger siblings".

And it is this implied personalization of Christ that introduces tension into the way we think about Christ. On the one hand we do in fact have a cosmic creator, a warrior God marching against evil and dishing out justice, and on the other hand we have a very personal and intimate "elder brother" who is willing and wanting to go out of his way to make "the one" feel loved. He leaves the 99 to go after the lost 1 (an interesting twist on the Occupy Wall Street movement!).

I personally cringe just a little when I hear Christ referred to as our "elder brother". After all, Satan (and many other cruel and evil people) is also our "elder brother". It is a technicality that threatens to blur the important distinctions that exist between Christ, Satan, and us. It is this exact technicality that our critics exploit when they assail us for believing that Jesus and Satan are brothers. We should give a mental nod to the technical fact that yes, Jesus, Satan, and all men are siblings, but perhaps we should not let that be the defining parameter for how we approach Christ or Satan. After all, we don't reverence Jesus just because he is our elder brother. It just happens to be so, and is not grounds for holding him in high esteem. Many older brothers can be unworthy of our devotion.

Let us instead approach Christ through a different set of parameters: his qualities and achievements. He is our Creator, Redeemer, Shepherd, Rock, Advocate, and Savior. We devote ourselves to him because of the things he has done for us and the love he has shown for us; not because he is our elder brother.

You may be wondering how these comments square with my previous comments (my last post) about desiring a "personal relationship" with Christ. I think it is desirable to have a personal relationship with Christ, but not one based solely on the fact that he is our elder brother. That is merely a tangential coincidence. It is not why we want a relationship with him, or to be his "friends" (as the scriptures say). We want a personal relationship with Christ because he is our Savior.

[LeSellers]

Satan (and many other cruel and evil people) is also our "elder brother".

I do not recall ever reading anything about others among those who who born spiritually prior to me (and, presumably, you) being cruel and evil. I'll have to request that you reference this. (That's a formal CFR, if you please.)

In fact, I cannot recall anyplace where we read that Satan is older than any of the rest of us. The Doctrine and Covenants does say that Lucifer was an "authority in the presence of God", but that's not the same thing at all.

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son, 26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

There is no doctrinally secure place that I remember as saying that Satan or anyone else is our elder brother except Jesus.

Lehi

[Nominee]

I'm with McCronkie on this one. I pray to my Heavenly Father in the name of Christ. I do not pray to Christ. Father is my father, my God; and Jesus is my brother,my Lord, my King, etc. I worship God the Father and I believe in His son, Jesus the Christ. I love them both with all of my heart. However, I can always stand to learn more and have a greater understanding.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Nominee

[altersteve]

I'm with McCronkie on this one. I pray to my Heavenly Father in the name of Christ. I do not pray to Christ. Father is my father, my God; and Jesus is my brother,my Lord, my King, etc. I worship God the Father and I believe in His son, Jesus the Christ. I love them both with all of my heart. However, I can always stand to learn more and have a greater understanding.

You can worship Jesus Christ without praying to Him. And Heavenly Father is also my God, but so is Jesus Christ.

[KevinG]

I always took the admonition that we don't have "personal relationships" with Christ as a rebuke of a casual attitude towards worshipping Christ. Not that our relationships aren't spiritually intimate and respectful but that they aren't too casual or disrespectful of God.

If our relationship is proper and respectful no amount of closeness to God is inappropriate. In fact we are encouraged to be close to God through faith, worship and obedience to the commandments.

[Ron Beron]

I think there is a great deal of consistency amongst Trinitarian theologians, of the view that they are of the same substance. Personally, I see holding to such a notion as difficult given that the same folks lend the word "immaterial" to God's nature, which seems to make this view a bit problematic. I think we often times create more issues than we resolve when we try to define something that is beyond our comprehension.

I don't have a clear answer for you though Ron. I know the Scriptures point towards the three being one, so this is what I accept. I don't pretend to know exactly how that all works and I am very thankful that the same Scriptures note that this is a bit of a mystery to us.

Thanks for your honesty, Mudcat, but I have trouble seeing a trinitarian notion in the scriptures. Surprisingly, Neoplatonism seems to have originated the concept of the trinity which may or may not be based on something much older. Frankly, like the German poet, Rilke, I tend to not worry about the answers, but have learned to love the questions themselves.

[Ron Beron]

Really? I do:

Like President Hinckley, I worship the Lord Jesus Christ. I love Him and I have a personal relationship with Him. He is my Savior, and He is also my Father in almost every way God the Father is.

They are one.

In the D&C 59:5 it states, ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy might, mind, and strength; and in the name of Jesus Christ thou shalt serve him.‘

An interesting discussion on this can be found here... http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/17/offenders-for-a-word-part-2-do-mormons-worship-jesus/