64 replies to this topic

[Senator]

Didn't Elder Mckonkie speak out against having a personal relationship with Jesus? I don't have my Mormon Doctrine handy.

[Senator]

mercyngrace, on 27 November 2011 - 08:10 AM, said:

I think if someone asked me to share my testimony during an interview, I'd ask "Why? Are you doubting?" and then laugh.

For me, the more profound and intimate a relationship is, the harder it is to put into words without sounding trite. For this reason, I tend to avoid bearing testimony unless the Spirit moves me to do so.

.

Uhggg!

I hear ya M&G (maybe this worthy of its own thread)

I for one get a little annoyed with the many calls for impromptu testimony sharing amongs members.  Several times I have wanted to respond with, "I would rather not at this time".  I haven't actually said it out of fears it will spark questioning. Instead I'll appease and rattle off a rote rendition.

Edited by Senator, 27 November 2011 - 09:17 AM.

[Nominee]

My testimony of the Savior's love burns inside me. I want to shout from the mountains and beg everyone who can hear me to please accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and just try the gospel. Just try it, it's delicious, you won't regret it! My heart aches with how much I wish the entire world could experience the love I have for Jesus and the love He has for me. I want to share with as many as will listen to me how being "encircled in the arms of His love" makes it possible for me to endure. I want to share how much courage I receive from the Lord to do the best I can in this life because no matter how many times I fall down trying He is always there to help me back up and to help me learn from the fall. And He never stops loving me and I am never alone. I love Jesus Christ and He deserves my witness to His amazing and neverending work in my life.

Edited by Nominee, 27 November 2011 - 09:12 AM.

[Senator]

Nominee, on 27 November 2011 - 09:10 AM, said:

My testimony of the Savior's love burns inside me.

<snip>

Are you LDS?

[Nominee]

Senator, on 27 November 2011 - 09:17 AM, said:

Are you LDS?

With all my heart, and with all my soul, and with all my mind!

[Senator]

Nominee, on 27 November 2011 - 09:23 AM, said:

With all my heart, and with all my soul, and with all my mind!

Ok,

Thks, just curious.....

[altersteve]

Nominee, on 27 November 2011 - 09:10 AM, said:

My testimony of the Savior's love burns inside me. I want to shout from the mountains and beg everyone who can hear me to please accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and just try the gospel. Just try it, it's delicious, you won't regret it! My heart aches with how much I wish the entire world could experience the love I have for Jesus and the love He has for me. I want to share with as many as will listen to me how being "encircled in the arms of His love" makes it possible for me to endure. I want to share how much courage I receive from the Lord to do the best I can in this life because no matter how many times I fall down trying He is always there to help me back up and to help me learn from the fall. And He never stops loving me and I am never alone. I love Jesus Christ and He deserves my witness to His amazing and neverending work in my life.

*applause*

Best post ever.

[mercyngrace]

Nominee, on 27 November 2011 - 09:10 AM, said:

My testimony of the Savior's love burns inside me. I want to shout from the mountains and beg everyone who can hear me to please accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and just try the gospel. Just try it, it's delicious, you won't regret it! My heart aches with how much I wish the entire world could experience the love I have for Jesus and the love He has for me. I want to share with as many as will listen to me how being "encircled in the arms of His love" makes it possible for me to endure. I want to share how much courage I receive from the Lord to do the best I can in this life because no matter how many times I fall down trying He is always there to help me back up and to help me learn from the fall. And He never stops loving me and I am never alone. I love Jesus Christ and He deserves my witness to His amazing and neverending work in my life.

That's awesome, Nominee. A spontaneously offered testimony is a powerful witness.

I've never been asked about my tesimony in an interview but if the way I live my life isn't enough of a testimony, then there's probably more to discuss than whether I can coherently put thoughts about my most profound relationship together on the spur of the moment.

Edited by mercyngrace, 27 November 2011 - 01:10 PM.

[Ron Beron]

TAO, on 26 November 2011 - 10:28 PM, said:

I would agree with Mudcat and Mercy'n'grace.  A personal relationship with him is something you want.  What is meant by a personal relationship?  It means that you pray to Father, and think of him as your Father, and treat him as you would your Father and your God.  And we are supposed to be close to our fathers. =)  And being close to Christ is to think of him similarly, though also as a brother.  We are supposed to be close to our brothers as well =D.

I guess it all depends on what 'personal relationship' is, but to me... it means seeking to know him... and respect him... and love him... and to be like him, I guess.

So sort of 'personal relationship' like a family member... as you said, not 'buddy status', at least not for me =).

Best of Wishes,
No offenses intended,
-TAO

I can agree with this easily, but I am somewhat befuddled by the EV's discussion of a "personal relationship" with Jesus.  It almost ignores the Father.  Since they believe the two are indeed one then it would make sense.

[mercyngrace]

Senator, on 27 November 2011 - 08:33 AM, said:

Didn't Elder Mckonkie speak out against having a personal relationship with Jesus? I don't have my Mormon Doctrine handy.

It was at a BYU devotional or fireside.

[altersteve]

Ron Beron, on 27 November 2011 - 02:24 PM, said:

I can agree with this easily, but I am somewhat befuddled by the EV's discussion of a "personal relationship" with Jesus.  It almost ignores the Father.  Since they believe the two are indeed one then it would make sense.

I don't see it as ignoring the Father at all. I rather see it as a profound example of their faith in Christ, just like their decision to display the cross as a symbol of their faith. I see that as an extremely heartfelt gesture, even though I disagree with it.

[Mudcat]

Ron Beron, on 27 November 2011 - 02:24 PM, said:

I can agree with this easily, but I am somewhat befuddled by the EV's discussion of a "personal relationship" with Jesus.  It almost ignores the Father.  Since they believe the two are indeed one then it would make sense.

We do believe they, along with the Holy Spirit are one God, but we don't believe that Jesus is the Father nor that the Father is the Son.

I don't think Evangelicals are ignoring the Father. Typically we pray to the Father in the name of the Son, prayer being the best mode for communication with God, then such prayers to the Father should be taken into account relationally.

[Nominee]

Thank you altersteve & mercyngrace for the warm reception of my bearing testimony!

I will bless the Lord at all times:
his praise shall continually be in my mouth.
~Psalm 34:1

[Ron Beron]

altersteve, on 27 November 2011 - 03:27 PM, said:

I don't see it as ignoring the Father at all. I rather see it as a profound example of their faith in Christ, just like their decision to display the cross as a symbol of their faith. I see that as an extremely heartfelt gesture, even though I disagree with it.

I can understand the sincerity, but sincerity doesn't equate with truth and I thought that is what we all sought.  Paul in his writings saw God as all-loving, but as humans we could not return the love only show faith and hope.  Paul uses the Greek word dikaisoune which Plato holds to be attribute of love and righteousness, a quality aspired to by humans but given only to God and denied to humans by Paul.  In other word, God can love us, but humans are incapable of loving God in the same manner.  We can show only righteousness.  Only faith or pistis is the manner in which humans can approach God.  Man can only show hope for God through his utter surrender of heart, will, and mind to Jesus.  I don't necessarily agree with his views as I disagree with many of views because it means that it ultimately means we have little control over our own existence.  Our ability to pursue goodness is abrogated by utter depravity and the only thing that saves us is our willingness to accept Jesus.  In the OT God is revealed in His wrath against evil while in the NT only Jesus can overcome the wrath of God by his sacrifice.

[Ron Beron]

Mudcat, on 27 November 2011 - 03:32 PM, said:

We do believe they, along with the Holy Spirit are one God, but we don't believe that Jesus is the Father nor that the Father is the Son.

I don't think Evangelicals are ignoring the Father. Typically we pray to the Father in the name of the Son, prayer being the best mode for communication with God, then such prayers to the Father should be taken into account relationally.

I try not to paint with too broad a stroke and realize I can be pretty obtuse at times and if mistaken I am sorry.  When I was a Catholic I remember the emphasis was always on Jesus and God was so much a mystery as to be ignored.  Something you have said has intrigued me.  If the Jesus is not the Father nor vice versa then what is he?  Is he held as the same substance of the Father or is he different?

[cdowis]

Storm Rider, on 27 November 2011 - 03:21 AM, said:

Not precisely on topic with the OP, but I have been somewhat bothered by recent "interviews" with Stake Presidents and other leaders where they ask me to share my testimony of Jesus.  I first time I was asked this I was caught very off guard.  My personal relationship has always been with my Father in Heaven.  My Savior makes that relationship possible and it is through him that I may return to our Father, but the foundation of my relationship has always been with the Father.

This is what McConkie taught, and Christ always pointed us to the Father.  My personal relationship is with the Father, developed through personal prayer.  I do not pray to Christ, I do not speak to Him, but have a love and appreciation for His life and atonement as I read the scriptures.

[Mudcat]

Ron Beron, on 27 November 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:

I try not to paint with too broad a stroke and realize I can be pretty obtuse at times and if mistaken I am sorry.  When I was a Catholic I remember the emphasis was always on Jesus and God was so much a mystery as to be ignored.  Something you have said has intrigued me.  If the Jesus is not the Father nor vice versa then what is he? Is he held as the same substance of the Father or is he different?

I think there is a great deal of consistency amongst Trinitarian theologians, of the view that they are of the same substance. Personally, I see holding to such a notion as difficult given that the same folks lend the word "immaterial" to God's nature, which seems to make this view a bit problematic. I think we often times create more issues than we resolve when we try to define something that is beyond our comprehension.

I don't have a clear answer for you though Ron. I know the Scriptures point towards the three being one, so this is what I accept. I don't pretend to know exactly how that all works and I am very thankful that the same Scriptures note that this is a bit of a mystery to us.

Edited by Mudcat, 28 November 2011 - 09:43 AM.

[altersteve]

Mudcat, on 28 November 2011 - 09:21 AM, said:

I think there is a great deal of consistency amongst Trinitarian theologians, of the view that they are of the same substance. Personally, I see holding to such a notion as difficult given that the same folks lend the word "immaterial" to God's nature, which seems to make this view a bit problematic. I think we often times create more issues than we resolve when we try to define something that is beyond our comprehension.

I don't have a clear answer for you though Ron. I know the Scriptures point towards the three being one, so this is what I accept. I don't pretend to know exactly how that all works and I am very thankful that the same Scriptures note that this is a bit of a mystery to us.

Where does the Bible say that the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is a mystery?

[mercyngrace]

Elder James E. Faust's first address as an apostle was titled A Personal with the Savior.  In it, he encourages us to develop and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ:

Recently in South America, a seasoned group of outstanding missionaries was asked, “What is the greatest need in the world?” One wisely responded: “Is not the greatest need in all of the world for every person to have a personal, ongoing, daily, continuing relationship with the Savior?” Having such a relationship can unchain the divinity within us, and nothing can make a greater difference in our lives as we come to know and understand our divine relationship with God.
We should earnestly seek not just to know about the Master, but to strive, as He invited, to be one with Him (see John 17:21), to “be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man” (Eph. 3:16). We may not feel a closeness with Him because we think of Him as being far away, or our relationship may not be sanctifying because we do not think of Him as a real person...
May I suggest five beginning, essential measures which will greatly clear the channel for a daily flow of “living water” from the very source of the spring, even the Redeemer Himself..

It's interesting that Elder McConkie's fireside address has gained wide recognition in some LDS circles although given to a local audience at BYU while President Faust's talk rarely gets a mention although given before the entire church in General Conference.

It's also interesting the Elder McConkie spoke of the personal relationship we desire with Christ in GC just a few years before the Pace incident.

He is our Friend, our Lawgiver, our King, and our Lord. We seek his face and desire to dwell in his presence. We are his people, the sheep of his fold.(April 1977 GC, Come Know the Lord Jesus)

I find it sad that someone would forego a relationship specifically cultivated to allow for friendship, advocacy, and compassionate succoring out of a mistaken sense of propriety. We don't pray to Christ but we most certainly should have an intimate relationship with Him.

It also strikes me a quite ironic that President Faust's talk as well as Dr. Pace's article What It Means to Know Christ are both available on lds.org while Elder McConkie's notorious rebuke is not (you can however, read it at byu.edu).

Edited by mercyngrace, 28 November 2011 - 10:59 AM.

[LeSellers]

Stephen Covey is not a General Authority, nor is he a serious scriptural scholar, but he does have significant insights into the Gospel on occasion. His book, The Divine Center, gives a useful perspective on this, as , I believe, did Elder M^cConkie's talk.

Neither one said we should not seek a personal relationship with the Savior. What they said was we should not seek such a relationship to the exclusion of such relationships with the rest of the Godhead. The difference is critical.

Lehi