88 replies to this topic

[George Miller]

floatingboy, on 01 December 2011 - 09:07 AM, said:

Except that George Miller believes.

William Schryver, on 01 December 2011 - 09:39 AM, said:

Believes what?

Believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the gospel is divine. <End of Line>

[wenglund]

William Schryver, on 01 December 2011 - 10:31 AM, said:

Bingo!

We have a winner.

It wouldn't be fair for me to take credit for the win since I was prompted by the referee.

All I can take credit for is seeing what you clearly presented. Nice work!

Quote

And this is but one of many such examples that I have identified to date.

The deeper I dig into this on my own, the more I see how right you are. [thumbs up]

It is too bad that others can't see how remarkably innovative and illuminating are your research and findings on this topic. I say this figuring that it may animate certain critics to the point of apoplexy and evoke accusations of cheer-leading and pom poms. And, I am okay with that. I don't mind rattling some cages from time to time. LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[KevinG]

Wade,

Pom-poms are fine.  Just say no to the skirt.

[wenglund]

DaddyG, on 01 December 2011 - 11:01 AM, said:

Wade,

Pom-poms are fine.  Just say no to the skirt.

Okay, but can I keep the megaphone? I am having some trouble being heard.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Cobalt-70]

wenglund, on 01 December 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

At the very least we can say that the supposed "copy" in the Phelps letter was in the handwriting of Phelps. In other words, we have a drawing of the characters by Phelps that predate the drawings in the EA's and the GAEL. This preexisting drawing may then be used in a comparative analysis over time. If you weren't trying so hard to brush aside the evidence that doesn't fit your preconception, you just might see this.

I totally understand that the Phelps letter is the earliest of the six. So what? There is one earlier still. One manuscript to rule them all. And we don't know what it looks like. So with these particular six characters, there is not a whole lot we can say, except to say that Oliver Cowdery based his characters either on Smith's, or on the original Adamic manuscript (which also could have been Smith's, but we don't know), rather than Phelps, given that in character #32, Cowdery copied Smith's spiral, which appears on none of the Phelps characters.

Edited by Cobalt-70, 02 December 2011 - 02:41 AM.

[Cobalt-70]

wenglund, on 01 December 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

However, when looking at the final product (the GAEL), where things came together, we can tell which of the differences of opinion bore sway (who had the final say), thus giving indication of who may have taken the lead in the project.

All it says is that Phelps was the scribe--that it was his pen that wrote it--not that he was the "boss." We don't say that Oliver Cowdery was the "boss" of the Book of Mormon project because he had the final say as to the spelling and penmanship of the manuscript.

[William Schryver]

Cobalt-70, on 02 December 2011 - 02:23 AM, said:

I totally understand that the Phelps letter is the earliest of the six. So what? There is one earlier still. One manuscript to rule them all. And we don't know what it looks like. So with these particular six characters, there is not a whole lot we can say, except to say that Oliver Cowdery based his characters either on Smith's, or on the original Adamic manuscript (which also could have been Smith's, but we don't know), rather than Phelps, given that in character #32, Cowdery copied Smith's spiral, which appears on none of the Phelps characters.

You're quickly moving up the ranks of the most presupposition-driven poster of all time.

At any rate, what evidence is there that Cowdery copied Smith's characters?  Could not Smith just as easily have copied Cowdery's characters?  In virtually post of yours I have read in the past several weeks, your presuppositions are driving your conclusions, and you never the let the lack of evidence, or even contrary evidence, get in your way.

[William Schryver]

Cobalt-70, on 02 December 2011 - 02:36 AM, said:

All it says is that Phelps was the scribe--that it was his pen that wrote it--not that he was the "boss." We don't say that Oliver Cowdery was the "boss" of the Book of Mormon project because he had the final say as to the spelling and penmanship of the manuscript.

Your assertion flies in the face of an abundance of evidence demonstrating that Phelps's versions of characters, sounds, etc. from the earlier EA manuscripts are consistently given preference in the expanded GAEL document.  A mere scribe would not be permitted to toss out Joseph Smith's versions of these things in favor of his own.

This project is substantially different in nature from the translation of the Book of Mormon.  Here we have three nearly identical initial manuscripts, one of them in the handwriting of Joseph Smith himself.  If he were taking an authoritative role in this project, then his versions of characters, sounds, explanations would have consistently been given preference in the GAEL.  They are not.  The logical conclusion that follows is that Joseph Smith was not exerting authoritative control over this project.

[wenglund]

I must admit that even though I don't agree with much if anything that Colbalt-70 has posted here, I admire his strength of conviction and willingness to put his ideas on the line and open them to public scrutiny, and I respect his right to differ in his opinion from mine.

At this point, he seems to be alone in his willingness and ability to carry the torch for the critics here, and I view that as to his credit. [thumbs up]

So, I wish to encourage his efforts since it not only provides the spice of variety, but also it gives me cause to reconsider my own position in a new light, and I feel strengthened by the process.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-