88 replies to this topic

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Xander, on 26 November 2011 - 04:47 AM, said:

Incidentally, I've just been informed by George Miller that he is working on a publication that will demonstrate quite conclusively that Phelps relied on Joseph Smith, and not vice-versa.

This is interesting. I have heard of things being laid out by the critics for years. Most of the time nothing ever comes from it. I hope to not be disappointed this time. So far this Miller fellow seems to be all hot air. And what I mean by that is, all we get is "I will be presenting at such and such venue. Or "I will will be writing a book in the future that covers this topic."

"We shall see", said the blind man.

[David T]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 28 November 2011 - 03:19 PM, said:

This is interesting. I have heard of things being laid out by the critics for years. Most of the time nothing ever comes from it. I hope to not be disappointed this time. So far this Miller fellow seems to be all hot air. And what I mean by that is, all we get is "I will be presenting at such and such venue. Or "I will will be writing a book in the future that covers this topic."

"We shall see", said the blind man.

Except he has presented. At the Mormon History Association Annual Meeting. I first heard about him from the great word of mouth from that meeting. I've since had the opportunity to read a transcript of the presentation, and view the accompanying slides. It's pretty amazing stuff. He's currently expanding and reworking it for publication.

It's going to be worth the wait.

[William Schryver]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 28 November 2011 - 03:19 PM, said:

This is interesting. I have heard of things being laid out by the critics for years. Most of the time nothing ever comes from it. I hope to not be disappointed this time. So far this Miller fellow seems to be all hot air. And what I mean by that is, all we get is "I will be presenting at such and such venue. Or "I will will be writing a book in the future that covers this topic."

"We shall see", said the blind man.

Well, for what it's worth, I am writing a book that covers this topic.  I already have 300+ pages, including 100+ high-resolution images and a complete transcription of the text of the EA-GAEL.  I expect the finished book to be 500+ pages.  Part of its purpose will be to present the contents of the EA/GAEL in such a fashion that these manuscripts will be, for the first time ever, made accessible to a general audience.  A significant proportion of the book will not be apologetic in nature, but will (I believe) constitute a valuable resource for anyone interested in these fascinating documents.

I am convinced that it will present overwhelming evidence supporting my primary thesis concerning the EA/GAEL: that they are dependent on a pre-existing text of the Book of Abraham.

Edited by William Schryver, 28 November 2011 - 03:46 PM.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

William Schryver, on 28 November 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

Well, for what it's worth, I am writing a book that covers this topic.  I already have 300+ pages, including 100+ high-resolution images and a complete transcription of the text of the EA-GAEL.  I expect the finished book to be 500+ pages.  Part of its purpose will be to present the contents of the EA/GAEL in such a fashion that these manuscripts will be, for the first time ever, made accessible to a general audience.  A significant proportion of the book will not be apologetic in nature, but will (I believe) constitute a valuable resource for anyone interested in these fascinating documents.

I am convinced that it will present overwhelming evidence supporting my primary thesis concerning the EA/GAEL: that they are dependent on a pre-existing text of the Book of Abraham.

That is good news. I am not one for buying books but I think this is one I would get. I have been following this stuff for years now.

Will it be out before any of Brent's or "Miller's" books? Lol.

Edited by Mola Ram Suda Ram, 28 November 2011 - 03:52 PM.

[William Schryver]

nackhadlow, on 28 November 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:

Except he has presented. At the Mormon History Association Annual Meeting. I first heard about him from the great word of mouth from that meeting. I've since had the opportunity to read a transcript of the presentation, and view the accompanying slides. It's pretty amazing stuff. He's currently expanding and reworking it for publication.

It's going to be worth the wait.

I look forward to this publication.  I will examine it thoroughly.  From what I know of the EA/GAEL already, I believe Miller's arguments face daunting challenges.  However, regardless of whether or not his specific thesis proves to have merit, I am confident that he will be providing much valuable information that will advance the study of these things.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

nackhadlow, on 28 November 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:

Except he has presented. At the Mormon History Association Annual Meeting. I first heard about him from the great word of mouth from that meeting. I've since had the opportunity to read a transcript of the presentation, and view the accompanying slides. It's pretty amazing stuff. He's currently expanding and reworking it for publication.

It's going to be worth the wait.

I am sure he has some interesting things to present. I will look forward to what he has to add to the picture.

[William Schryver]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 28 November 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

That is good news. I am not one for buying books but I think this is one I would get. I have been following this stuff for years now.

Will it be out before any of Brent's or "Miller's" books? Lol.

Only time will tell ...

[wenglund]

William Schryver, on 28 November 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

Well, for what it's worth, I am writing a book that covers this topic.  I already have 300+ pages, including 100+ high-resolution images and a complete transcription of the text of the EA-GAEL.  I expect the finished book to be 500+ pages.  Part of its purpose will be to present the contents of the EA/GAEL in such a fashion that these manuscripts will be, for the first time ever, made accessible to a general audience.  A significant proportion of the book will not be apologetic in nature, but will (I believe) constitute a valuable resource for anyone interested in these fascinating documents.

I am convinced that it will present overwhelming evidence supporting my primary thesis concerning the EA/GAEL: that they are dependent on a pre-existing text of the Book of Abraham.

What would be really nice is were a digital version (preferably online) of your book to be made available for further research and ease of citation. [thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[William Schryver]

wenglund, on 28 November 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

What would be really nice is were a digital version (preferably online) of your book to be made available for further research and ease of citation. [thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

All my publications that include copyrighted images are subject to approval by the Church History Department. I doubt that this book (and its many accompanying copyrighted images) will be approved for online publication.

[Brent Metcalfe]

Hi Wade,

I fully appreciate the allure of the Pacific Northwest. My first impression of Puget Sound convinced me that Joseph Smith was off in his placement of the Garden of Eden by a couple of thousand miles.  

Let me know if you're ever in town and we can chat about all things BoAbr over lunch (my treat).

On your revisions to your initial posts, you still have a few critical details that are factually incorrect. Give me a day or so to reply (working again tonight)—I don't want to give your recasting short shrift.

Kind regards,

</brent>

http://mormonscripturestudies.com
(© 2011 Brent Lee Metcalfe.)
——————————
The thesis of inspiration may not be invoked to guarantee historicity, for a divinely inspired story is not necessarily history.
—Raymond E. Brown

[Senator]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 28 November 2011 - 03:55 PM, said:

I am sure he has some interesting things to present. I will look forward to what he has to add to the picture.

Really??

I thought you just said he "seems to be all hot air".

[wenglund]

Brent Metcalfe, on 28 November 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

Hi Wade,

I fully appreciate the allure of the Pacific Northwest. My first impression of Puget Sound convinced me that Joseph Smith was off in his placement of the Garden of Eden by a couple of thousand miles.  

You can thank me for that. In the preexistence I was responsible for organizing the matter, and setting certain plate tectonics in motion to form that region of the world. At one point I suggested it to my elder brother as a perfect place for the Garden, but alas instead he preferred the flatland (he favors the "sea of glass" look). So, while Joseph was correct in what he said, I share your sentiment.

Quote

Let me know if you're ever in town and we can chat about all things BoAbr over lunch (my treat).

If or when I move up there, I am wondering if you have room in your basement where I can take up residence. And, if you could provide free wifi that would be nice. (Just kidding--I would be pleased to share lunch with you)

Quote

On your revisions to your initial posts, you still have a few critical details that are factually incorrect. Give me a day or so to reply (working again tonight)—I don't want to give your recasting short shrift. Kind regards, </brent>

Excellent. I look forward to it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund, 29 November 2011 - 09:43 AM.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Senator, on 29 November 2011 - 09:14 AM, said:

Really??

I thought you just said he "seems to be all hot air".

I was mainly thinking of Metcalf and his book that has been in the works for years. Thanks for playing senator. Your posts are always so thoughtful.

[William Schryver]

Brent Metcalfe, on 28 November 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

On your revisions to your initial posts, you still have a few critical details that are factually incorrect. Give me a day or so to reply (working again tonight)—I don't want to give your recasting short shrift.

You always have been partial to low-hanging fruit.

Edited by William Schryver, 29 November 2011 - 02:38 PM.

[Brent Metcalfe]

Still working. No complaint, just fact.  

I wrote...

Brent Metcalfe, on 28 November 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

On your revisions to your initial posts, you still have a few critical details that are factually incorrect. Give me a day or so to reply (working again tonight)—I don't want to give your recasting short shrift.

Hi William,

You replied...

William Schryver, on 29 November 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

You always have been partial to low-hanging fruit.

I don't consider Wade's points "low-hanging fruit." But since you do, please explain why (and be specific).

My best,

</brent>

http://mormonscripturestudies.com
(© 2011 Brent Lee Metcalfe.)
——————————
The thesis of inspiration may not be invoked to guarantee historicity, for a divinely inspired story is not necessarily history.
—Raymond E. Brown

[Cobalt-70]

William Schryver, on 28 November 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

Well, for what it's worth, I am writing a book that covers this topic.  I already have 300+ pages, including 100+ high-resolution images and a complete transcription of the text of the EA-GAEL.  I expect the finished book to be 500+ pages.  Part of its purpose will be to present the contents of the EA/GAEL in such a fashion that these manuscripts will be, for the first time ever, made accessible to a general audience.  A significant proportion of the book will not be apologetic in nature, but will (I believe) constitute a valuable resource for anyone interested in these fascinating documents.

I am convinced that it will present overwhelming evidence supporting my primary thesis concerning the EA/GAEL: that they are dependent on a pre-existing text of the Book of Abraham.

Do you have a publisher? Will it be published before Brian Hauglid's book? I'm just waiting for somebody to publish the secret high-resolution images.

[Cobalt-70]

William Schryver, on 28 November 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:

All my publications that include copyrighted images are subject to approval by the Church History Department. I doubt that this book (and its many accompanying copyrighted images) will be approved for online publication.

Is the Church trying to claim copyright on EA-GAEL? Or are you talking about other images. If they are claiming copyright on the original 176-year-old EA-GAEL papers, that's a pretty dubious claim, so I doubt they would try it, although the church's IP lawyers are pretty aggressive. If they are claiming copyright on just the photos, then I don't think they can get a copyright for mere high-resolution photos. Taking a photograph of a document is a pretty mechanical process, and you can't usually claim a copyright for that.

[wenglund]

William Schryver, on 28 November 2011 - 03:15 PM, said:

Since I am rather confident that neither Metcalfe, Smith, nor Graham will attempt to defend Metcalfe's argument that the second column of characters in EA-WP was copied from EA-JS, I will just go ahead and present evidence that strongly suggests the argument to be spurious.  Of course, the argument was made in an attempt to discredit my developing thesis that William Phelps was the dominant force behind the EA/GAEL project.  With that in mind, I invite readers to closely examine the images below.  Is there persuasive evidence to suggest that the second column of characters from EA-WP (under the heading EA-WP_b) was copied from EA-JS?  

Compare the GAEL* characters to those in EA-WP, EA-JS, and EA-OC.  Note also the several variants presented by EA-JS and EA-OC, particularly at characters 32, 34, 35, and 36**.  

Hi Will,

The juxtaposition of the six sets of character is very helpful and enlightening, and I believe convincingly makes your point.

There is one question that has nagged at me for some time: Why the two sets of characters in EA WWP Part 2, the first page? I would be interested to hear any explanations you may have in mind--that is, if it isn't divulging information you wish to reserve until later.

Also, is there any reasons that would preclude the first page of EA WWP (at least the characters and sounds, if not also the explanations, from having been written prior to July of 1835? The thought of it struck me earlier today.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[William Schryver]

Xander, on 26 November 2011 - 04:47 AM, said:

Precisely. And this was discussed on this forum a couple of years ago. I remember Brent asking William Schryver to explain why Phelps' EA contained two columns of the same sequence of characters. After pretending to know, but refusing to answer, you finally answered the question and correctly pointed out that the characters in the right hand column were in Joseph Smith's handwriting - on Phelps' EA document. This clearly suggests that Phelps was relying on Smith, not vice-versa.

Still waiting for Graham to defend his argument ...

Quote

For Schryver or Wade to insist it was the anti-Mason, W.W. Phelps, who believed Adam used a Masonic code, is nothing short of ridiculous.

A prime example of how Graham relies on strawman constructions in order to "win" his debates.  Has anyone ever suggested that "Adam used a Masonic code"?  Of course not.  But Graham assures it is ridiculous.  I agree with him.  I agree that it is "nothing short of ridiculous" to believe that Adam used a Masonic code.

[William Schryver]

Chris Smith, on 27 November 2011 - 03:58 AM, said:

Hey Kevin, what you wrote about the two columns of Phelps's EA isn't quite accurate. The two columns Brent posted on the thread you linked were actually from two separate documents. I don't know that we can conclude the right-hand column of Phelps's EA is in Smith's handwriting. Rather, Phelps in his right-hand column seems to be *copying* (and in his left column *modifying*) Smith's tilted script.

Still waiting for Smith to defend this argument (an argument that originates with Metcalfe, by the way) ...