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Economy And Ward Populations And God


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So, our amazing Bishop dropped a bombshell on us today by telling us that his family is moving. Our ward is pretty stripped clean as it is and now this so it got me thinking. Where he is moving to wards there are seriously like wards with 150-400ish active people and from what I understand you could years without a calling, talks, etc. Here as soon as you move in, you are needed and put to work. He is moving due to economic factors, which is how life is, you go where the buffalo goes but what value is there in being a ward where unless you wear christmas lights you might not get noticed or any callings, etc for quite sometime as opposed to being in a ward where you are needed and I guess in a larger sense does God somehow control the economy so that our Bishop feels the need to move and just be another family in a massive ward where he is serving just fine here? Like why would God feel the need to move him when we have literally no members here and we seriously need people!

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I liked it better when we had larger wards, but mainly for the youth though.

All it takes are 15 active and mostly married priesthood holders to make a ward. Bishopric, High Priests, Elders, Young Men's and a combination of SS, WML, and clerck (SS can often go without a counselor(s) if the Ward is small). Their wives will be RS, YW, and the Primary Presidencies.

If your ward is truly suffering and I mean truly, the wards should be redrawn. But I hear you.

My current ward has 320 members, 126 unique households, 51% Sacrement meeting attendance and 35% current TR. Perspective elders in our Stake went from 270 to 230 over the last five years. The Stake has around 50 convert baptisms per year. We think we are growing modestly. However, our most embarrassing stat is only 25% of young men choose to serve missions in our stake and so that speaks of a greater underlying problem imho based on inactivity, fewer children, the aging of the population, and the general assault on the family.

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I liked it better when we had larger wards, but mainly for the youth though.

All it takes are 15 active and mostly married priesthood holders to make a ward. Bishopric, High Priests, Elders, Young Men's and a combination of SS, WML, and clerck (SS can often go without a counselor(s) if the Ward is small). Their wives will be RS, YW, and the Primary Presidencies.

If your ward is truly suffering and I mean truly, the wards should be redrawn. But I hear you.

My current ward has 320 members, 126 unique households, 51% Sacrement meeting attendance and 35% current TR. Perspective elders in our Stake went from 270 to 230 over the last five years. The Stake has around 50 convert baptisms per year. We think we are growing modestly. However, our most embarrassing stat is only 25% of young men choose to serve missions in our stake and so that speaks of a greater underlying problem imho based on inactivity, fewer children, the aging of the population, and the general assault on the family.

Counting brethren ONLY we have:

HP- 4

Elders- 4

YM - 4

WML- 1

Sunday school- ?

Key 5- 5

And of course we have not yet factored in primary teachers.

It seems clear that 15 active couples is far too few to run a ward.

Besides their callings, do all these brethren do all the home teaching themselves? All the missionary fellowshipping and visits?

Should families with small children have both parents be in the Bishopric AND in the relief society/ young women's/ primary presidencies?

Should these same people organize all activities, set up all the chairs, make all the food and do the cleanup?

Should these same people do ward cleanup on Saturdays, and all the Sunday talks and teach all the lessons?

I rest my case! It can be TOUGH to staff a ward!!

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Counting brethren ONLY we have:

HP- 4

Elders- 4

YM - 4

WML- 1

Sunday school- ?

Key 5- 5

And of course we have not yet factored in primary teachers.

It seems clear that 15 active couples is far too few to run a ward.

Besides their callings, do all these brethren do all the home teaching themselves? All the missionary fellowshipping and visits?

Should families with small children have both parents be in the Bishopric AND in the relief society/ young women's/ primary presidencies?

Should these same people organize all activities, set up all the chairs, make all the food and do the cleanup?

Should these same people do ward cleanup on Saturdays, and all the Sunday talks and teach all the lessons?

I rest my case! It can be TOUGH to staff a ward!!

I am sure in your case and I know in mine you have seen burnout, that STP thing, same ten people. I know some guys who have been bishops twice and one of our stake pres. members is in his second time around and he is in the STP loop and honestly I think he is getting near that point where he is just tired and just wants to go to church! I don't see why we have wards iwth 300 active and having to make up callings when there are branches and wards that are about as effective as pigs on stilts

Edited by Duncan
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Like why would God feel the need to move him when we have literally no members here and we seriously need people!

Hello Duncan...

I don't think God has anything to do with it... I happen to love my small town and small ward. But, this is not a good area for jobs that pay a decent salary, i.e., we are a resort area with lots of service type jobs that are at or just above minimum wage in restaurants, hotels/motels, store clerks etc etc. There are very few that can provide the type of pay that a family needs in today's economy. Hence, we are an "older" ward (I think we have 3 young women, about 5 young men, etc) Every Sunday the grown men help pass sacrament, and since we have lots of visitors we also ask the visiting deacons to help pass. On holidays our ward is bursting at the seams with folding chairs set up to the back of the cultural hall.

Our young people grow up, go off to college for an education, and then have to move to where they can pursue their careers, coming "home" to visit their parents. This is just the reality of the times in areas such as mine. The younger members of the ward are usually in the positions such as doctors, police, teachers. etc. We have 3 new families who have moved into the ward... one doctor, one city policeman, one pharmacist. Otherwise, ward members work in local stores and businesses and this is just too hard for those with families.

GG

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Are you talking about a move out of province or just a move within the same city? If it's within the same general area then ward boundaries might be an issue...

But if it's out to get some oil money, well that's just the way it goes. Where I live the rural areas have been gutted of nearly all their youth for the past 20 years. It shows in the church congregation demographics.

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Are you talking about a move out of province or just a move within the same city? If it's within the same general area then ward boundaries might be an issue...

But if it's out to get some oil money, well that's just the way it goes. Where I live the rural areas have been gutted of nearly all their youth for the past 20 years. It shows in the church congregation demographics.

yep, the big oil thing...but he isn't involved in any of that-Our province and yours as well i'm sure has been giving them tons of people and now I say it's their turn to shoot some back!!!

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our most embarrassing stat is only 25% of young men choose to serve missions in our stake and so that speaks of a greater underlying problem imho based on inactivity, fewer children, the aging of the population, and the general assault on the family.

I'd strongly suggest that the families in your ward/stake consider family-centered education (misleadingly called "homeschooling").

For every 100 boys baptized by their fathers, who go to government-controlled, tax-funded (gctf, aka welfare) schools, only about 8 will go on a mission. For every 100 boys baptized by their fathers who are educated in their families, 96 will do so. (Statistics from memory; precision guaranteed ±8% or double your money back.)

Your point about the assault on the family is spot on, and one of the most effective tools Satan has is gctf-welfare school. (See the Reverend Robert Lewis Dabney on the subject.)

Lehi

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I'd strongly suggest that the families in your ward/stake consider family-centered education (misleadingly called "homeschooling").

For every 100 boys baptized by their fathers, who go to government-controlled, tax-funded (gctf, aka welfare) schools, only about 8 will go on a mission. For every 100 boys baptized by their fathers who are educated in their families, 96 will do so. (Statistics from memory; precision guaranteed ±8% or double your money back.)

Your point about the assault on the family is spot on, and one of the most effective tools Satan has is gctf-welfare school. (See the Reverend Robert Lewis Dabney on the subject.)

Lehi

don't know anything about that but what percentage stays active? now, back to our regular scheduled program God, the economy and ward populations

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don't know anything about that but what percentage stays active?

Modern family-centered education is relatively new (although, like family-centered marriage, is the original version), so longevity studies have not been conducted.

However, my observations of hundreds of LDS F-CEd families in their second generation show very impressive retention rates. All of our children are active, whereas my brother's family is nearly one-half inactive.

This is on point (except, possibly, for the "economics" part) because the growth of God's Kingdom requires higher activity rates, higher missionary service proportions, greater family size (e.g., our seven families have given us 27 grandchildren, and one of our daughters-in-law is incapable of having children, hoping to adopt two early next year—two sons have only been married for about four years, and have only two children each).

F-CEd families are more reverent (we have three in our ward—it's easy to see which ones) in Sacrament meetings, give prepared talks in Primary (rather than Mom reading a word or two and the child repeating her), and read their scriptures daily far more frequently than gctf-welfare school families.

I believe, too, that F-CEd families care less about "economics" (meaning how much money they earn) than gctf-welfare school families, but that's probably showing a strong bias on my part.

Lehi

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However, our most embarrassing stat is only 25% of young men choose to serve missions in our stake and so that speaks of a greater underlying problem imho based on inactivity, fewer children, the aging of the population, and the general assault on the family.

That's an interesting statistic. I have no idea what it is for my stake, but now I'm curious.

My ward is huge. When we moved in several years ago, we actually had two Elder's Quorums! We finally had enough people move out that we're down to one quorum, but it's still a rather large ward. But I like it that way. Plenty of different people to talk to, and all different kinds of ideas and opinions floating around.

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Hmmmm... this is interesting. My ward is quite large (200ish people) and has quite a few active members (probably about 90ish). And nearly all the boys go on missions... and most of them are active =P.

I guess it all depends on things XD.

Best of Wishes,

TAO

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This has to be the very weakest-case scenario for "Why doesn't God stop Bad Things From Happening", though.

well sorry for living! but I wasn't presenting it as an indictment against God, I was just asking what value does God see in moving people into wards and areas where they may not be needed as much as they are in the area in which they just came from

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It seems clear that 15 active couples is far too few to run a ward.

Sercretaries are not necessary. Numbers of counselors can change especially in the Sunday School case. For example, in my own ward, we have perhaps 20-25 active youth whose numbers drop drastically in the summer. The teachers preferred larger classes and so it was decided to have just two youth Sunday School classes, 12 thru 14 and 15 thru 18. We also have one gospel doctrine class and one new member/gospel principles class. The Sunday School president has only one counselor and no secretary and they are tasked with subing for any of those classes or finding a sub . IIRC there is one designated sub for GD since the GD teacher is also directs the choir.

The counsel/directive from the Church is that for the USA and Canada, wards should have about 300 members. 150 in other countries. All new wards are to have a required minimum of 15 active and tithe paying Melchizedek Priesthood holders. Nominally one of those per 20 members and if the ward exceeds 300, the 15 active Preisthood holders is to be increased according to that standard.

For a branch the minimum number of members is 20 with 4 to 6 such active priesthood holders.

There apparently is an avenue for exceptions to these rules. I'm assuming it's to go even lower than min.

These are the numbers required to create a new unit. I am not aware of what the counsel is if the number drops to close or below minimum although I'm sure any SP would keep an eye on it. If an SP wants to create new units or change existing ones, after drawing up the plan he must get approval of the Area Presidency and/or one of the Seventy as well as the Mission President.

Besides their callings, do all these brethren do all the home teaching themselves? All the missionary fellowshipping and visits?

Yes. Obviously they would try to get others to help.

Should families with small children have both parents be in the Bishopric AND in the relief society/ young women's/ primary presidencies?

Ideally no, but it can happen even in wards with many more active priesthood holders. In the 15 minimum case, it is virtually guaranteed to happen.

Should these same people organize all activities, set up all the chairs, make all the food and do the cleanup? Should these same people do ward cleanup on Saturdays, and all the Sunday talks and teach all the lessons?

Have you never been a member of a branch? You seem to be assuming that that's all there is (the 15) in terms of membership. However, their (the 15) families alone could easily total 50 members or more.

I rest my case! It can be TOUGH to staff a ward!!

In my own ward, we have double or more than 15 active and married MP holders and there are many other members who still participate and help. There are singles, older and younger who are active and temple worthy. Some of them have families as well. We have at least two large "brady bunch" families thrown together out of the ashes of divorce who are struggling to become temple worthy but are active nonetheless and their children attend too. I imagine many other wards are similar as seems to be the case in my Stake.

It sure is tough. Upon the backs of the active members are many devils trying to push them down. Upon the backs of the inactives, there are no devils at all because they are safely off the path to eternal life. One of the keys imho, is to require a higher standard (well just use the actual standard) for home teaching and not count encounters outside the home, on the proch, or by telephone. The new Ward Counsel stuff seems to be helping and we've been blessed with a few great new move-ins. We concentrate on "tweeners" (between activity and inactivity) and generally leave the hard cases alone but do check on them from time to time.

Satan himself puts all his efforts onto the active MP holders but if they hold steady they are safe so Satan also has a program for tweeners and peeling off a teenager or two from each active family if he can. I say this with four fingers pointing back at me because I certainly am not perfect, you MUST have the family at dinner most nights, family prayer, and FHE. You MUST make additional time for all your children. You MUST teach them what the world calls old fashioned conservative moral and family values but is in actually what we call the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you, in the process of having compassion for the sinner find yourself also having compassion for sin as well, I guarantee failure in the home (yours or your children's) if you don't repent.

Edited by BCSpace
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well sorry for living! but I wasn't presenting it as an indictment against God, I was just asking what value does God see in moving people into wards and areas where they may not be needed as much as they are in the area in which they just came from

I have learned from difficult experience that God does not interfere with the agency of others. Corruption or bad policy destroying our economic health is one of those things that good and bad people suffer through. Your ward being drained of leaders because of the economy is not something that would cause others to lose their agency no matter how difficult it is for the members.

God does however compensate and support those who are obedient and faithful - just not in the way we always expect.

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our most embarrassing stat is only 25% of young men choose to serve missions in our stake and so that speaks of a greater underlying problem imho based on inactivity, fewer children, the aging of the population, and the general assault on the family.

I'd strongly suggest that the families in your ward/stake consider family-centered education (misleadingly called "homeschooling").

Besides the poor stats, the straw that broke the camel's back was an interview the SP had with a young man, 18 and just graduated from HS, seeking to marry in the temple with his high school sweetheart asap.

What the Stake has decided to do overall is have all young men 16 and up attend missionary prep class regularly. I have some resevations about that as it's an extra meeting despite the fact that the teachers are good. Making it one mutual night a month or some such thing could be better and I have suggested it.

I hear you about the public schools and generally agree.

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Sercretaries are not necessary. Numbers of counselors can change especially in the Sunday School case. For example, in my own ward, we have perhaps 20-25 active youth whose numbers drop drastically in the summer. The teachers preferred larger classes and so it was decided to have just two youth Sunday School classes, 12 thru 14 and 15 thru 18. We also have one gospel doctrine class and one new member/gospel principles class. The Sunday School president has only one counselor and no secretary and they are tasked with subing for any of those classes or finding a sub . IIRC there is one designated sub for GD since the GD teacher is also directs the choir.

The counsel/directive from the Church is that for the USA and Canada, wards should have about 300 members. 150 in other countries. All new wards are to have a required minimum of 15 active and tithe paying Melchizedek Priesthood holders. Nominally one of those per 20 members and if the ward exceeds 300, the 15 active Preisthood holders is to be increased according to that standard.

For a branch the minimum number of members is 20 with 4 to 6 such active priesthood holders.

There apparently is an avenue for exceptions to these rules. I'm assuming it's to go even lower than min.

These are the numbers required to create a new unit. I am not aware of what the counsel is if the number drops to close or below minimum although I'm sure any SP would keep an eye on it. If an SP wants to create new units or change existing ones, after drawing up the plan he must get approval of the Area Presidency and/or one of the Seventy as well as the Mission President.

Yes. Obviously they would try to get others to help.

Ideally no, but it can happen even in wards with many more active priesthood holders. In the 15 minimum case, it is virtually guaranteed to happen.

Have you never been a member of a branch? You seem to be assuming that that's all there is (the 15) in terms of membership. However, their (the 15) families alone could easily total 50 members or more.

In my own ward, we have double or more than 15 active and married MP holders and there are many other members who still participate and help. There are singles, older and younger who are active and temple worthy. Some of them have families as well. We have at least two large "brady bunch" families thrown together out of the ashes of divorce who are struggling to become temple worthy but are active nonetheless and their children attend too. I imagine many other wards are similar as seems to be the case in my Stake.

It sure is tough. Upon the backs of the active members are many devils trying to push them down. Upon the backs of the inactives, there are no devils at all because they are safely off the path to eternal life. One of the keys imho, is to require a higher standard (well just use the actual standard) for home teaching and not count encounters outside the home, on the proch, or by telephone. The new Ward Counsel stuff seems to be helping and we've been blessed with a few great new move-ins. We concentrate on "tweeners" (between activity and inactivity) and generally leave the hard cases alone but do check on them from time to time.

Satan himself puts all his efforts onto the active MP holders but if they hold steady they are safe so Satan also has a program for tweeners and peeling off a teenager or two from each active family if he can. I say this with four fingers pointing back at me because I certainly am not perfect, you MUST have the family at dinner most nights, family prayer, and FHE. You MUST make additional time for all your children. You MUST teach them what the world calls old fashioned conservative moral and family values but is in actually what we call the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you, in the process of having compassion for the sinner find yourself also having compassion for sin as well, I guarantee failure in the home (yours or your children's) if you don't repent.

Good post- but I wonder about all the other variables involved- like individual attitudes.

One could do it theoretically with committed folks, but then if you have a whole ward of these kind of folks:

I like not being noticed and not being depended upon. I like living in a ward with lots of ability.

you would have problems. I'm not putting down rcrocket- in my experience, he/she is more typical of members in my area; so the huge unmentioned variable in all this is commitment level. And I don't know how to affect that.

One can be a TBM and even a full tithe-paying temple going member, but lack commitment to do all that is needed. Believing is one thing, but being ready to live the law of consecration is another.

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Counting brethren ONLY we have:

HP- 4

Elders- 4

YM - 4

WML- 1

Sunday school- ?

Key 5- 5

And of course we have not yet factored in primary teachers.

It seems clear that 15 active couples is far too few to run a ward.

Besides their callings, do all these brethren do all the home teaching themselves? All the missionary fellowshipping and visits?

Should families with small children have both parents be in the Bishopric AND in the relief society/ young women's/ primary presidencies?

Should these same people organize all activities, set up all the chairs, make all the food and do the cleanup?

Should these same people do ward cleanup on Saturdays, and all the Sunday talks and teach all the lessons?

I rest my case! It can be TOUGH to staff a ward!!

Spent most of my 48 years in the church in branches where there were no more than 15 active couples. Mostly less. It was hard but we coped. Served as RS pres with 3 children while my husband servedon the Branch Presidency. It would be great to be in a big ward and be able to go to church just to go to church for a change!!!

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F-CEd families are more reverent (we have three in our ward—it's easy to see which ones) in Sacrament meetings

That hasn't been my experience. While admittedly limited in sample size to a few families, the F-CEd kids tended to interrupt teachers much more often, got bored easier, and didn't stay on target as long when having to do stuff in a group or having to sit in listen to someone else speak. I know of one young man who almost didn't get into college because he didn't realize that a deadline meant a deadline and missed the application date.

OTOH, I know of one child who had to deal with fetal alcohol syndrome who was failing in school who was pulled out and taught by his mother (adopted) for 2 hours a day and caught up with his class after being 3 grades behind in just one year. Huge family with several kids with developmental issues and a lower middle income/high low income standard of living but as far as I know all have been remarkably successful in life. About the best work ethic in a family I have ever seen and the kids really cared about each other as well.

I got the opportunity to 'homeschool' my son when we were in Russia one year. Personalities didn't mesh. He was a perfect student for others, from me he expected something different and just wouldn't concentrate or keep on track. When my daughter's health issues turned her into being home schooled, the same type of problems occurred plus she associated any discipline with parental disapproval which drove her anxiety (the major issue at that time) sky high. OTOH, I have tutored numerous children and young adults and have been very successful with them and my kids worked well one on one with other students. It probably would have been different if we had started out with me teaching them as my son understood math on a middle school level by the time he hit first grade because of the games I'd play with him and my daughter learned how to read in the same way, but both tended to naturally socially isolate themselves while craving social interaction (perhaps the combination of having an introverted mother and an extroverted father) so having daily social interaction with others of their age was essential and at that time only available through public schooling.

I would have very much enjoyed setting up a small homeschool with other families, but my health prevented it and there was no one else in the area interested. Family schooling is not always an option unfortunately, but the lacks of public schooling can be made up to a great extent by parental involvement. I think most problems with public schooling arise when the parents treat the school as a replacement for their involvement with their children rather than a supplement or even if they see themselves as a supplement to school rather than the other way around.

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