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Zakuska

Isaiah 44:6-8 Polytheisitc?!

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I had not noticed this before... this verse presents 2 YHWHs!

Isaiah 44:6

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

This seems to present 2 YHWHS speaking... one is the first... the first Adam, the King of Israel) and one is the Last, the Last Adam or redeemer, Jesus Christ?!

We have two titles given here...

1) LORD king of Israel, Adam called and appointed the Ancient People, Who prophecied so those would know of the coming Redeemer.

2) The LORD of Hosts

Adam God anyone!

I wonder if that "ME" is really in the original hebrew or if it could be better translated as "us". Any Hebrew scholars out there?

Edited by Zakuska

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I had not noticed this before... this verse presents 2 YHWHs!

Isaiah 44:6

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

This seems to present 2 YHWHS speaking... one is the first... the first Adam, the King of Israel) and one is the Last, the Last Adam or redeemer, Jesus Christ?!

We have two titles given here...

1) LORD king of Israel, Adam called and appointed the Ancient People, Who prophecied so those would know of the coming Redeemer.

2) The LORD of Hosts

Adam God anyone!

I wonder if that "ME" is really in the original hebrew or if it could be better translated as "us". Any Hebrew scholars out there?

The pronominal suffix is first person singular. It can't be translated "us."

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I had not noticed this before... this verse presents 2 YHWHs!

Isaiah 44:6

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

This seems to present 2 YHWHS speaking... one is the first... the first Adam, the King of Israel) and one is the Last, the Last Adam or redeemer, Jesus Christ?!

We have two titles given here...

1) LORD king of Israel, Adam called and appointed the Ancient People, Who prophecied so those would know of the coming Redeemer.

2) The LORD of Hosts

Adam God anyone!

I wonder if that "ME" is really in the original hebrew or if it could be better translated as "us". Any Hebrew scholars out there?

I think you might have a problem with vs. 6 where it includes the word "and". In a separate parallel reading it states, 44:6 "This is what the Lord, Israel’s king, says, their protector, the Lord who commands armies: “I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me." Here, "and" is replaced with a simple comma showing continuation rather than connection. Of all the translations only the KJV includes the connector word "and".

Edited by Ron Beron

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I don't see or know of any evidence that "LORD the King of Israel" refers to Adam.

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The pronominal suffix is first person singular. It can't be translated "us."

How is the 'us' in Genesis derived?

Edited by Zakuska

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I don't see or know of any evidence that "LORD the King of Israel" refers to Adam.

Well we know that there is a Sword wielding 'Lord of Hosts' who David spoke with. And with whom Abraham spoke with as well. Michael is presented as the sword weilding Angel in the icons.

Guido_Reni_031.jpg

Michael4.jpg

So maybe there are 3 YHWHs? 2 on the earth... and one who remains in the heavens. Maybe Im getting them mixed up.

Joshua 5:14

13 ¶And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

15 And the captain of the Lord’s host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Edited by Zakuska

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Isaiah 44:6

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Here is how I would translate it:

6. Thus says Yahweh King of Israel, Jacob's redeemer, General Yahweh: I am the first god and I am the last god, and there are no gods beside me.

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How is the 'us' in Genesis derived?

Gen 3:22? It's the particle "like/as" with the first common plural pronominal suffix. For Gen 1:26 the verb is in the cohortative form, which is first plural.

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...

Isaiah 44:6

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

...

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

...

Hi Zak,

Verse 8 says that the LORD knows no other God. This seems to go against what some Mormons say: that we worship our God, but that does not mean there are not other Gods for other worlds.

But it does harmonize with my way of speaking: that God is not one finite personage, but an infinite family Union of exalted men and women from all eternity. Because they are in total unity, they synergistically are the ONE God: beginningless, endless, almighty, all knowing, etc.

When the LORD speaks, He speaks for the entire Union. Thus, there really is only ONE God, and the One God truthfully says He knows no other God.

Richard

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...

An Isaiah verse I have wondered about is 65:17 --

For, behold, I
create
new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

If the word create used here is the same Hebrew word found in Genesis 1:1, then is not this verse saying for the ex nihilo believers that the new creation coming will be "out of nothing"?

And thus none of us will be in it by that understanding. We are all something already.

But I do not know what a Hebrew scholar would think of this argument.

Richard

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An Isaiah verse I have wondered about is 65:17 --

For, behold, I
create
new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

If the word create used here is the same Hebrew word found in Genesis 1:1, then is not this verse saying for the ex nihilo believers that the new creation coming will be "out of nothing"?

And thus none of us will be in it by that understanding. We are all something already.

But I do not know what a Hebrew scholar would think of this argument.

Richard

It is the same verb, but the verb has no connection with the notion of creation ex nihilo.

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Zakuska,

Hi again. Let's look at Isaiah 44:6.

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts;

I am the first, and I am the last;

and beside me there is no God." (KJV)

The first line is not referring to two LORDs or two YHWHs, but is referring to the LORD in two ways. The antecedent of the pronoun "his" is "Israel," not YHWH ("the LORD"). Thus, the first line says, "Thus says Yahweh the king of Israel and his (Israel's) redeemer Yahweh of hosts." The meaning is that Yahweh is both Israel's king and Israel's redeemer. We know beyond any reasonable doubt that this is so because after saying, "Thus says...," the text quotes one speaker who speaks in the first-person singular, "I am the first and I am the last, and beside me there is no God." Grammatically, this statement is attributed to "Yahweh the king of Israel and his (Israel's) redeemer Yahweh of hosts." This cannot refer to two different Yahwehs, then, because the speaker speaks in the first-person singular.

The words, "I am the first and I am the last" are not attributed here to two different speakers, but to one speaker, who concludes, "and beside me there is no God." One cannot assign the words "I am the first" to the "first Yahweh" and "I am the last" to the "second Yahweh"; this way of reading the text is simply incorrect. The whole statement is attributed to "Yahweh the king of Israel and his (Israel's) redeemer Yahweh of hosts."

One should also compare Isaiah 44:6 with two other texts in the same section of Isaiah where similar language is used:

"Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he" (Isa. 41:4 ESV).

"Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last" (Isa. 48:12 ESV).

In both of these texts, one Yahweh is described using the two terms "the first" and "the last"; Isaiah 48:12 explicitly calls this one Yahweh the first and the last.

Finally, Jesus Christ is not just "the last" here; he is both "the first and the last," as he said to John in the Book of Revelation (Rev. 1:17-18; 2:8; 22:12-13). On these passages, see my book Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ, 177-81. The language used in these texts and in the Isaiah texts should not be confused with Paul's description of Adam and Christ as "the first man, Adam" and "the last Adam" respectively (1 Cor. 15:45).

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I had not noticed this before... this verse presents 2 YHWHs!

Isaiah 44:6

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Re "his redeemer", the "his" probably refers back to Israel: "Thus says the LORD the King of Israel, and his (i.e. Israel's) redeemer, the LORD of Hosts". The King of Israel is the LORD of Hosts.

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