Mark Alan Wright Book Of Mormon/Mesoamerica Fireside On Sunday

[Calm]

The music director led the choir in an opening song. After the song he made a comment in passing of how wonderful it was to have such beautiful singing without getting paid for it.

The way you describe it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do you mean he said it was wonderful having singing (to listen to) without having to pay for it? If so, that makes much more sense and could indeed be a reference to a church choir he understood the congregation paid to sing, but could have referred to the higher quality professional events that usually cost a nice penny to attend.

[Calm]

deleting a dup even if it was worth saying twice.....

Edited August 24, 2011 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

I think I might have seen you mfBukowski. In our past phone conversation several months ago you didn’t seem to really want to continue with me so I didn’t approach you or who at least the one I thought could have been you (the person I was looking at seemed to be looking my way often as well or at least that was my perception).

I had no idea you were there- you should have said hello. I was in the back in the best seat in the house, last row, center section, on the left side if you are facing the pulpit, on the aisle.

Edited August 26, 2011 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

2. To be clear, I wasn't paid to give the fireside. I bought my own gas, slept on my brother's futon, and paid for my own food the whole trip. The comment about priestcraft was made in jest and was in direct reference to my employment as a professor in the Ancient Scripture dept at BYU, and the message I was trying to convey was that I love my job so much that I'm not doing it for the paycheck. I cracked a lot of jokes that night since I was surrounded by friends and family (it was in my old home stake center, hosted by my old singles ward).

That message was totally clear- I think what you actually said that, that it was so great that you get to show up at work and talk about the gospel for a while and then get paid for it.

It was a very informal and friendly atmosphere, and I thought the comment was completely appropriate. I was jealous in fact! That would be so cool! I definitely missed my "calling" but unfortunately I didn't join the church in time to do much academically in a church setting. GRRRR.

On the other hand, I think my totally secular education in philosophy gives me a different perspective than pretty much anyone I have encountered in church. I don't know if that's a good thing or not- it seems most members don't quite know what to make of my comments.

Edited August 26, 2011 by mfbukowski

[coolrok7]

I had no idea you were there- you should have said hello. I was in the back in the best seat in the house, last row, center section, on the left side if you are facing the pulpit, on the aisle.

If I had known what you look like I would have at least said hi. The person who I thought could have been you was at the back right section behind where the room divider is. At the end he just got up and went out the other door. He had been looking my way often, I sat to the left of you at the side door entrance, last row before the room divider.

From several years ago I had shared our church's website with you where there was a picture of me flying my rc helicopter at our New Year's Eve game night so I thought you might recognize me as I couldn't recognize you without a visual reference to go on.

[coolrok7]

1. My presentation wasn't actually subtitled "It's never too late"; it was a YSA fireside, and at the beginning I felt inspired to share my own story of getting a little bit of a later start in marriage and education than others, and I encouraged anyone who felt they were struggling not to give up hope and not to fear taking chances in life. I hadn't planned on starting that way, and it was wholly unrelated to the rest of my presentation.

I understood the above from being there, I included the statement in the context of mentioning the slide presentation but didn’t make that clear, sorry as I should have said the evening (as you explained) was subtitled not the slideshow.

2. To be clear, I wasn't paid to give the fireside. I bought my own gas, slept on my brother's futon, and paid for my own food the whole trip. The comment about priestcraft was made in jest and was in direct reference to my employment as a professor in the Ancient Scripture dept at BYU, and the message I was trying to convey was that I love my job so much that I'm not doing it for the paycheck. I cracked a lot of jokes that night since I was surrounded by friends and family (it was in my old home stake center, hosted by my old singles ward).

I was glad I was able to attend. Thanks for clarifying in the above for other’s sake. I had noticed the fireside mentioned on the website (MDDB) as it was pinned to the top for people to notice (the location in Long Beach was sort of near the area where I live so I decided to drop in and hear what you had to say).

I could see that you were really into the subject at hand and didn’t mean to imply nor did I think that you were getting paid for the evening.

You are getting paid though, to teach religious courses, in the context of Mormonism of which you said you really enjoy which led to the “priest craft” statement. This in my experience is a negative comment against having paid ministers.

Firesides are usually an open invite also to those not Mormon in my experience as I’ve been invited other times as well. When I heard your comment on priest craft it sort of struck a nerve which led me to share I what I did.

You might have said it in jest but it is a sore spot for those not Mormon who have heard the digs often by Church members and Church teaching over the years of my attending Mormon chapels, other firesides, etc.. Mormons have their share of digs at them as well which I would agree are unfair to them too at times.

It just so happens that I was there to hear it in the context that I did.

Calmoriah:

The way you describe it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do you mean he said it was wonderful having singing (to listen to) without having to pay for it? If so, that makes much more sense and could indeed be a reference to a church choir he understood the congregation paid to sing, but could have referred to the higher quality professional events that usually cost a nice penny to attend.

For the context of what I meant by what I said I repeat the following. His inference was a dig, probably after Robert Schuler of the Crystal Cathedral (I usually pass going home every night from work as they do pay some big name people that come to perform I believe at their Christmas/Easter pageants if I’m not mistaken in hearing what the choir director stated).

There is nothing wrong with enjoying beautiful music/singing even if one pays for it (and if one is earning their living from it):

The music director led the choir in an opening song. After the song he made a comment in passing of how wonderful it was to have such beautiful singing without getting paid for it.

I believe in the context of how he said it, it was a dig at the Crystal cathedral (Schuler) as they, the performers of the Christmas/ Easter pageants they put on as some are paid for the performances (not all are I don’t think).

It is of course possible he meant something else but I hear the dig against “paid ministers” often enough for it to sound like it was anything different. For the most part church work by members is usually of the volunteer type while giving of their time, treasure, and talent in service to the Lord and each other.

I’ve attended many a Mormon chapel and other gatherings and am used to how they have their specific talking points against others they disagree with. This sounded very much in line with what I hear often which is why I pointed it out in the context of what you said Mark, even if you were jesting.

Regardless of the jesting, the context was about getting paid in a religious setting as BYU is the Church’s own college.

This is not to say you don’t deserve to get paid for your efforts as a teacher any more than it should be out of context for ministers to get paid for their service in the proclamation of the Gospel, the previous Biblical quotes I used for their justification in the reaping in of what they sow in a proper context.

It is not without proper criticism in today’s history of radio/TV preachers exorbitant lifestyles in which some I would totally disagree with on how they live but they like anyone else will have to give an account for how they lived their lives and spent the Lord’s money (after all, it’s His money entrusted to us as His stewards).

[Ron Beron]

The illustrious* Dr. Mark Alan Wright (Visiting Professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU; PhD, Mesoamerican Archaeology, UC Riverside, 2011) will be giving a presentation about archaeology and the Book of Mormon at the Long Beach East Stake Center (4142 Cerritos Ave, Los Alamitos, CA 90720) at 7pm on August 21st. I'm not sure if the fireside is supposed to be geared only towards YSA or not, but I know many older married folks will be there as well. It's virtually the same presentation I've given here in Utah a couple of times, so no need to book flights if you've already seen it. As it happens, I address many of the issues Coe raised in his recent podcast, but it will not be a direct response or a point-by-point rebuttal in any way. If any of you are able to attend, please come and introduce yourself!

*according to my wife

Darn! A week late and a dollar short and to top it off it was at my old stake house.

[mfbukowski]

deleted- wrong thread!!

Edited April 28, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Bob Oliverio]

As a recent member of almost 6 yrs now, I admittedly don't know much about Dr. Wright not being from the BYU-Utah world of the Church.  But Being that I was one (of many?) that was led to believe Hill Cumorah was in NY prior to joining, I find this mesoamerican argument now quite interesting from various aspects.

Sounds like the fireside was met with total thumbs up from this thread.  So is this Dr Wright one who will be able to bring the claim of historicity for the BOM to an elevation of notoriety amongst historians interests outside of Utah, BYU or our Church scholars.  Or are such fireside presentations merely meant for self motivating purposes to members within the Church?

My wife's BIL sent us article, when we began questioning this whole NY, South American history of Hill Cumorah.  We got some article from a Dr. Clarke at BYU.  

My question is, without knowing who Dr Clark or Dr Wright are or anything about either, have they or any other Mormon experts on the subject of the historicity in the Book of Mormon generated any interest from academic historians outside of our Church?

I only ask because it seems from conversations here that the speeches and research given by these LDS professors is of the utmost credibility and interest.  So my question is:  Does it carry into the academic world outside of the Church or Utah?

[poulsenll]

Bob

Dr John Clark is a well respected scholar and publishes regularly about the Olmec. Dr. Wright is a recent PhD and will hopefully contribute much to the field. Does it carry into the academic world? Not much although Dr Clark is well known to be a member of the church. Dr Wright was a student of Dr. Carl Taube who has published extensively on Mesoamerica cultures.

Larry P

[Nathair/|\]

As a recent member of almost 6 yrs now, I admittedly don't know much about Dr. Wright not being from the BYU-Utah world of the Church. But Being that I was one (of many?) that was led to believe Hill Cumorah was in NY prior to joining, I find this mesoamerican argument now quite interesting from various aspects.

Sounds like the fireside was met with total thumbs up from this thread. So is this Dr Wright one who will be able to bring the claim of historicity for the BOM to an elevation of notoriety amongst historians interests outside of Utah, BYU or our Church scholars. Or are such fireside presentations merely meant for self motivating purposes to members within the Church?

My wife's BIL sent us article, when we began questioning this whole NY, South American history of Hill Cumorah. We got some article from a Dr. Clarke at BYU.

My question is, without knowing who Dr Clark or Dr Wright are or anything about either, have they or any other Mormon experts on the subject of the historicity in the Book of Mormon generated any interest from academic historians outside of our Church?

I only ask because it seems from conversations here that the speeches and research given by these LDS professors is of the utmost credibility and interest. So my question is: Does it carry into the academic world outside of the Church or Utah?

I'm speaking as a fan rather than a player so take this for what it's worth, but as far as I can tell, while Dr. Wright, Dr. Clark, Dr (Daniel C.) Peterson, Dr. Larry Poulsen and other academics--many of whom we are extremely blessed to have participate here--are very well respected in their fields, most outside academics can't get passed the whole "angels and miracles in the age of railroads" issue long enough to even consider the Book of Mormon and other ancient restoration scripture on it's merits.

[volgadon]

Sounds like the fireside was met with total thumbs up from this thread. So is this Dr Wright one who will be able to bring the claim of historicity for the BOM to an elevation of notoriety amongst historians interests outside of Utah, BYU or our Church scholars. Or are such fireside presentations merely meant for self motivating purposes to members within the Church?

DanGB, what does it really matter what others think of us?

[DWhitmer]

As a recent member of almost 6 yrs now, I admittedly don't know much about Dr. Wright not being from the BYU-Utah world of the Church. But Being that I was one (of many?) that was led to believe Hill Cumorah was in NY prior to joining, I find this mesoamerican argument now quite interesting from various aspects.

Since you are somewhat of a new member and new to the topic, a word of advice is warranted. Whereas the Holy Book of Mormon is primarily a spiriutal record sent forth to serve a spiritual purpose, the above mentioned academics turn a blind ear to the spiritual intonations of the geography. The lands of the BoM are known by fulfilled land prophecies, i.e. they are not outside of Colonial America boundaries.

So is this Dr Wright one who will be able to bring the claim of historicity for the BOM to an elevation of notoriety amongst historians interests outside of Utah, BYU or our Church scholars. Or are such fireside presentations merely meant for self motivating purposes to members within the Church?

They are required to tow the party line which began with Ferguson and continues now with Sorenson and Clark. It is not possible to have a correct sized model (small) and fulfilled land prophecies anywhere outside of western New York. Click the link below to learn.

[Bob Oliverio]

Since you are somewhat of a new member and new to the topic, a word of advice is warranted. Whereas the Holy Book of Mormon is primarily a spiriutal record sent forth to serve a spiritual purpose, the above mentioned academics turn a blind ear to the spiritual intonations of the geography. The lands of the BoM are known by fulfilled land prophecies, i.e. they are not outside of Colonial America boundaries.

They are required to tow the party line which began with Ferguson and continues now with Sorenson and Clark. It is not possible to have a correct sized model (small) and fulfilled land prophecies anywhere outside of western New York. Click the link below to learn.

Seems like some very weak, at best, sights that you link to for your evidence.  I don't think they pass the credibility test.

[DWhitmer]

Seems like some very weak, at best, sights that you link to for your evidence. I don't think they pass the credibility test.

"Credibility test"? You mean, anti-Mormon??? Read the "Anti-Mormon" section on the home page of the geography site, return and share who the anti's are.

[livy111us]

Arlin is an extremist, non-LDS who believe that LDS are under a curse from God. His views rarely stand up to scrutiny, but he'll argue 'til he's blue in the face. I've found it is best to just ignore him.

[DWhitmer]

Arlin is an extremist, non-LDS who believe that LDS are under a curse from God. His views rarely stand up to scrutiny, but he'll argue 'til he's blue in the face. I've found it is best to just ignore him.

Who are you referring to? Please provide some examples.

[mfbukowski]

Who are you referring to? Please provide some examples.

It appears you are only here to promote your websites and preach.

Not a great start.

[Anijen]

Since you are somewhat of a new member and new to the topic, a word of advice is warranted. Whereas the Holy Book of Mormon is primarily a spiriutal record sent forth to serve a spiritual purpose, the above mentioned academics turn a blind ear to the spiritual intonations of the geography. The lands of the BoM are known by fulfilled land prophecies, i.e. they are not outside of Colonial America boundaries.

They are required to tow the party line which began with Ferguson and continues now with Sorenson and Clark. It is not possible to have a correct sized model (small) and fulfilled land prophecies anywhere outside of western New York. Click the link below to learn.

In addition to giving me a really good laugh, the links at the bottom of your post are exactly the type of drivel that the archaeology experts condemn

And links such as these are the motivation for my avatar.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Jeff Holt

[DWhitmer]

In addition to giving me a really good laugh, the links at the bottom of your post are exactly the type of drivel that the archaeology experts condone.

If there was some coherency there I missed it.

[volgadon]

If there was some coherency there I missed it.

Entirely coherent, so you must have missed it. Perhaps you are staying up a little too late.

[DWhitmer]

Entirely coherent, so you must have missed it. Perhaps you are staying up a little too late.

By all means...

[Calm]

the type of drivel that the archaeology experts condone.

Condone or condemn?

[Anijen]

Condone or condemn?

Oops, I know I stayed up too late. I'll fix that.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Jeff Holt

[Anijen]

Oops again, dbl post...

Edited April 30, 2012 by Jeff Holt