bluebell Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 SilverGirl,In case you didn't notice, I apologized already...Yet, to reply to your post, Deborah did in fact, write that it would be "much easier to just do what the living prophet says" than to study Revelations.In case you didn't notice, Deborah said she was speaking about a specific group of people (those who who already aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing). You need to address Deborah's whole statemen and not just the part that makes it easiest to dismiss her. Link to comment
jo1952 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I have been watching this conversation with interest, and Deborah did not imply that she has NEVER recieved any Spiritual direction from the Lord... Not at all!!She simply stated that she KNOWS where the Prophet and the 12 get their inspiration... It is next to improssible to know where some random person who chooses to post on an online forum gets their inspiration... The people who post here are often nameless avatars on a screen...That is why we are taught to follow the 1st Presidency and the 12... Of course we are supposed to listen for the discerning voice of the Spirit to guide us!! Of course we are supposed to study it out in our minds and hearts and prayers...No where, in all of Deborah's posts did she suggest that we are supposed to blindly give up our Agency and follow these men with no thoughts of our own... And at no time are we to substitute their judgement for our own, and ignore the promptings of the Spirit...For you to suggest that she implied that we should do so is just... Well, it is very sad...*Attempting To Play Nice In The Sandbox*Silver Girl Hi Silver Girl,I am sorry; but I need to disagree with you. I think Deborah's comments portrayed the concept that she would prefer to listen only to the Prophet and our Church leaders for direction. It was only after HeatherAnn called her on those comments that Deborah explained what her comments meant. In fact, I am still not sure where Deborah stands on the fact that scripture teaches us there will be true teachers and true prophets raised up in the last days in addition to the false ones. It seems to me that she will be waving ALL of them off without personally testing what they will have to say, because she would rather ONLY listen to what the Prophet and Church Leaders say, and pray about THOSE things ONLY. Inasmuch as our Prophet and the Apostles and other Church leaders are still men in the flesh who can fall or trip or stray at any moment, I think there is danger in giving them so much control over our personal salvation. They are not the ones who can save us. Christ is our Savior and Redeemer. Giving too much power to what the Prophet and Church leaders tell us, places them between Jesus and ourselves. That very power is what led the ancient church astray. Members of the Church (and I am not saying that Deborah could fall prey to this, but her comments have been very brief and seem to manifest a type of "happy valley syndrome" which could make her a candidate...and I hope I am incorrect in reading that into her responses) who place Church leaders in such a position, are the same members who will fall away should the Prophet or an Apostle or other Church leader fall and stray. In fact these members are the ones who will leave the Church should they perceive a weakness or inconsistency in Church leadership. They will then claim that the Church somehow "lied" to them. I would like to make plain that our Leaders are just as capable of straying as any lay member of the Church is. Fortunately, the Lord in His wisdom, has made sure that the administration of the institution of the Church is protected. He has provided, within the "organization" of the Church itself, a method whereby even a Prophet, an Apostle, or other Church Leader can be removed from their office and their calling, if they do stray. Now, since the Lord Himself has set this up in His Restored Church, that He would NOT have done so if it were not something that needed to be in place. He does not want to see the same thing happen in His Restored Church as what happened in His ancient church; so He built into the latter-day organization the protection we need to prevent that from happening. I don't want you or anyone to think that I think they are leading us astray. I merely want to point out that they are still fallible - and since they are still in the world, they are capable of falling and leading us astray. Our FIRST and most important relationship should be the one we have with God; likewise that is where we should be placing our trust and our faith first. If that IS where we have placed our trust and faith, then even if a Prophet or other Church leader should fall, we will be able to recognize that this has happened, because the Holy Ghost will tell us so. That is when we can use the protection Jesus has set in place for the members of the Church; ie, a method whereby we can "pluck" out the offender and protect Jesus' Church. Love,jo Link to comment
Garden Girl Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Deborah... It was just minutes ago that you wrote... That is where you implied that you never received any spiritual direction from the Lord.And from the way your attitude comes across in your posts, I believe you.Talk about "attitude"... I've pretty much quit reading your posts HeatherAnn because of your attitude. If I described how ignorant your above statement is, I'd probably get my chastised by the mods, so I won't express how appalled I am at your ignorant, uncalled for slap at Deborah. So no, I won't express that... I'll just keep quiet. Those of us who have interacted with Deborah on this board for several years can see through your pitiful lack of judgment. But I won't bring that up either. I'll just consider the source and let you make a fool of yourself.from the beach on a lovely sunny afternoon... GG Link to comment
Calm Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 The point I made was that if people aren't doing what the are supposed to do anyway why would they read Revelation when it's easier to listen to the prophet, which they aren't doing either. And chances are if someone is not doing what they are supposed to do anyway, they won't have the Spirit with them fully enough to receive the inspiration they need in order to understand the scriptures correctly. Link to comment
Calm Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) SilverGirl,In case you didn't notice, I apologized already...Yet, to reply to your post, Deborah did in fact, write that it would be "much easier to just do what the living prophet says" than to study Revelations.Since Saints are not taught to do things the easy way, but the right way, I think your inference that Deborah was suggesting that the only thing we need to do is what the living prophet says because that's the easier way is a significant misreading of her comment. For some reason, it appears to me that you made some assumptions about what Deborah was saying and then proceeded to interpret everything that she said following that based on those assumptions even when she took the time to clarify what she said (and I think her clarification was quite clear). Perhaps it would be best if you went back to the beginning and reread her posts without those problematic assumptions (one apparently being that Deborah is suggesting that people do not study and search and seek the Spirit for themselves and instead just use the prophets' words like some checklist of behaviour....which is actually the opposite of what she was saying).Deborah's point all along was that she would listen to and study with the Spirit those teachings that came from those who were given authority to teach, those with the proper stewardship, not someone who more or less self appoints themselves as prophet and seer. Being a prophet for oneself is one thing, assuming that role unauthorized leads to apostasy. God is a God of order and he has specified who we are to listen to for spiritual guidance. This is different from having a casual discussion on the message board where people share their individual thoughts, once someone starts throwing in condemnation and implying that others are not listening to the Spirit if they don't agree with a certain position....that's when the line is crossed into inappropriate preaching (and possibly of potential false doctrine if it is not founded on the doctrine of the gospel but is based on personal interpretations). Edited August 8, 2011 by calmoriah Link to comment
Deborah Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 And chances are if someone is not doing what they are supposed to do anyway, they won't have the Spirit with them fully enough to receive the inspiration they need in order to understand the scriptures correctly.That's the point which apparently seems to be escaping some. I do worry about those who seem to think that the words of the living prophet are on the same level as anyone else who claims revelation. Link to comment
jo1952 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 HeatherAnn:Wow - I can't believe what I'm seeing here. I thought this website would be the last place I would see LDS judging others and being so obviously rude. What wonderful examples of Christ's love we are. If I weren't a member of the LDS Church who was reading this thread, I would be running away from even investigating the Church.May Father soften our hearts and remind us to love others as ourselves.I am so sorry you are being victimized like this. I believe that you are very much intuned with and being guided by the Holy Ghost in your life. I feel it is a blessing to know you and that you are so willing to share your experiencing of God with us.Much love,jo 1 Link to comment
Deborah Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I think Deborah's comments portrayed the concept that she would prefer to listen only to the Prophet and our Church leaders for direction. Are you saying you wouldn't. We've had this discussion here before and you sound like you belong to that group that questions whether the current prophets are true prophets or are leading us astray. If that is not correct I would be happy to be corrected. You are on a very slippery slope if you believe that you can start questioning the admonitions of the appointed prophets and apostles. To understand through personal inspiration whether something specifically applies to your circumstances is one thing. To begin to question everything and then say "well he could be leading us astray" if you don't like what is said is going down a different path altogether. We have been promised that the Prophets in this dispensation will not be allowed to lead the church astray. When one begins to put his own or someone else's personal revelation above that of the Prophet he is treading dangerous ground if he chooses to remain a member in good faith. Link to comment
Deborah Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 One thing to keep in mind is because prophets are fallible doesn't mean the can fall and lead the church astray. Link to comment
Calm Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 " a candidate...who place Church leaders in such a position, are the same members who will fall away should the Prophet or an Apostle or other Church leader fall and stray. In fact these members are the ones who will leave the Church should they perceive a weakness or inconsistency in Church leadership. They will then claim that the Church somehow "lied" to them.Honestly I've seen more people fall away who have become enamoured of a member who portrays him or herself as a person with special spiritual insights than those who have chosen to focus their attention and personal study and prayer on what appointed church leaders have taught. This is how the fundamentalist groups got started, for example. The Church also came out and cautioned against holding scripture study groups outside of the family back in the 90s IIRC because of those kinds of things occurring in some of the groups. Link to comment
Calm Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 HeatherAnn:Wow - I can't believe what I'm seeing here. I thought this website would be the last place I would see LDS judging others and being so obviously rude. What wonderful examples of Christ's love we are. If I weren't a member of the LDS Church who was reading this thread, I would be running away from even investigating the Church.May Father soften our hearts and remind us to love others as ourselves.I am so sorry you are being victimized like this. I believe that you are very much intuned with and being guided by the Holy Ghost in your life. I feel it is a blessing to know you and that you are so willing to share your experiencing of God with us.Much love,jojo, it seems to me it was Heather Ann that was judging Deborah for being less than spiritual than she should have been. Any condemnation of Heather Ann has been based on that faulty judgment and misrepresentation of Deborah. Heather Ann may be extremely in tune with the Spirit in her own life, that does not mean that if she misunderstands what Deborah has commented that no one should care but just give her a pass because of her sincere intentions, especially if she continues in her erroneous ideas and commentary about Deborah. Link to comment
Calm Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) When one begins to put his own or someone else's personal revelation above that of the Prophet he is treading dangerous ground if he chooses to remain a member in good faith.When it comes to doctrine or practice, especially when acting in a capacity at church, the starting place should be the scriptures AND modern teachings of the prophets which are the scriptures of today (coupled with prayer of course). Once we are well versed in the basics, then that is the time to expand our personal study but always under the condition of continually checking back with the basics to make sure we don't go astray. Christ is the foundation of the Church and it would be unwise to disregard the great gift he has provided us in this day of living prophets in favour of wandering off alone relying on our own wisdom to pick and choose those who appeal to us as leaders.I enjoy having discussions with others on what they have found in their scripture studies or even in just day to day life as much as I enjoy the 'secular' discussions. End times prophecies can be very interesting and I don't see problems with exploring them. I do have a problem when such studies appear to be made into tests of worthiness or spirituality or others insist that their position is accepted as TRUTH, etc.add-on: just to be clear, while I have made comments on the inappropriateness of the type of obsessions that are usually called "gospel hobbies" (see http://lds.org/ldsor...000176f620a____ ), I don't mean to imply that anyone here has taken their personal interests to that level. There are few here that I know outside of the board, so I would have no way of accurately judging even if I cared to make that sort of judgment. I don't equate vigorous and passionate discussion with fanaticism or even unusual personal interpretations of gospel doctrines, whether it is the temple, the Word of Wisdom, end times or other topic. I make the assumption instead that people here are wise enough not to let their interests become unbalanced and unhealthy, either mentally or spiritually. Edited August 9, 2011 by calmoriah Link to comment
bluebell Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I am so sorry you are being victimized like this. I believe that you are very much intuned with and being guided by the Holy Ghost in your life. I feel it is a blessing to know you and that you are so willing to share your experiencing of God with us.Yeesh. She's not being victimized.She made a snarky judgement about another posters spirituality and she got called on it when her apology read more like a passive aggressive way to say 'i'm right, but i'll be the bigger person and apologize' than sincere regret.We've all been there. It's easy to become snarky on message boards and it's easy to misunderstand each other and make assumptions without first clarifying what the other person was saying. It's easy to be convinced that God is on your side of the argument and to call those who disagree to repentance and/or imply they aren't as spiritually intune as you are. The internet tends to bring out the worst in us when it comes to interpersonal communication.But when you mess up, you should expect to hear about it. It's all a part of the learning curve. Link to comment
Nemesis Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Time to get back on topic, move forward and leave the personalities outside the thread please. Nemesis Link to comment
Franktalk Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Honestly I've seen more people fall away who have become enamoured of a member who portrays him or herself as a person with special spiritual insights than those who have chosen to focus their attention and personal study and prayer on what appointed church leaders have taught. This is how the fundamentalist groups got started, for example. The Church also came out and cautioned against holding scripture study groups outside of the family back in the 90s IIRC because of those kinds of things occurring in some of the groups.If this Church has the restored Gospel (which it does) then the truth and the light will withstand any darkness the world can throw at it. Now people are not as strong as the truth or the light. We are weak. But we can build strength. I will tell you that you build strength by doing and falling and then getting up and doing it again. Let me use some scripture to make a point:Matthew 18:21-22 21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.Here Christ was talking to a Jew so the prophecy of Daniel applies.Daniel 9 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.Here God is saying that sin will end after seventy weeks of years or seventy times seven. So somehow sin is no more for the Jews after the 70th week is done. So Christ is telling Peter to forgive sin until sin is no more. Does this change the meaning of what Christ said? It does if you just take 490 as His answer verses the implied as many as it takes.I read Mat 18 differently than most do. It is because I study prophecy. I embrace it as part of scripture and I embrace it all as an integrated message. Am I to hold onto my understanding and place it under a rock? Or do I share it and see if the way I think this scripture is to be interpreted is correct by praying and sharing with others who have a critical eye. If indeed what I say is true then it will have a life of its own and will grow as a seed in the ground. But if it is false then it will die of its own. I am not afraid to share speculation in scripture. Good ideas will rise and bad ones will fall.If we restrict Bible study to just members of the Church we are not following several commandments. First we are to announce to the world the good news. Second we may learn some new truth from a source we did not expect. We are after all should be ready for truth to come to us from any source. If members fall away because they were drawn to a pleasing thought or a strong personality then so be it. Let us not fear the loss of some members. What is more important the truth or numbers of members? The truth will make the Church grow not a plan to protect people. I much rather have a stronger and smaller Church. If the Church is filled with people who are weak then we have become a weak Church. Do not fear the world. I have rejected the world and now I seek to find lost souls and tell them the truth. It is the truth that does the rest, not I. Link to comment
bluebell Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) If members fall away because they were drawn to a pleasing thought or a strong personality then so be it. Let us not fear the loss of some members. What is more important the truth or numbers of members? The truth will make the Church grow not a plan to protect people. I much rather have a stronger and smaller Church. If the Church is filled with people who are weak then we have become a weak Church. Do not fear the world. I have rejected the world and now I seek to find lost souls and tell them the truth. It is the truth that does the rest, not I.I honestly don't understand what you are saying here Frank. It sounds like the exact opposite of what Christ taught (which is that we should be more concerned about the one that falls away than the many that remain).I don't think Cal fears the world, nor people becoming strong in the gospel. It sounds like she fears those who believe they have become strong, when they are really just being deceived. The world is full of false prophets who sincerely felt they were being led by the Spirit and were doing God's will. If even the elect can be deceived, then we should be afraid of the loss of some members, becomes some of those members lost could be us. Edited August 9, 2011 by bluebell Link to comment
Franktalk Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 I think that as we talk about the end times it brings out some deep feelings about God. Some hold on to the fact that God is love and they try and stay away from scripture that on the surface may appear that God is not love. But only with deep study do we finally see the love of God in all scripture. Do not fear some scripture because it seems violent or judgmental. We are to fear God because of His power. We do not fear God because of what He says. Embrace what He says so we may become a knowledgeable servant of God.As we move closer to the end times the world will become more and more polarized. This will tear families apart and nations. Do not fear the world. In this dark hour become a light for the righteous to see so they may gather about you. Share the Word and help each other. Tell people that all must happen as it is written so that the Kingdom of God can come. After all what is seven years of tribulation compared to eternity. Link to comment
Franktalk Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 I honestly don't understand what you are saying here Frank. It sounds like the exact opposite of what Christ taught (which is that we should be more concerned about the one that falls away than the many that remain).I don't think Cal fears the world, nor people becoming strong in the gospel. It sounds like she fears those who believe they have become strong, when they are really just being deceived. The world is full of false prophets who sincerely felt they were being led by the Spirit and were doing God's will. If even the elect can be deceived, then we should be afraid of the loss of some members, becomes some of those members lost could be us.Maybe I missed the part in the Bible that the Apostles hid the believers so they would be protected from the world. I do seem to remember reading about sending out people throughout the world to spread the good Word.We should be attracted to sinners so we can help them. We should not be attracted to sin.Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.The key here is "any man". Link to comment
Franktalk Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 That's the point which apparently seems to be escaping some. I do worry about those who seem to think that the words of the living prophet are on the same level as anyone else who claims revelation.Let us be clear on this subject. The Word of God is of great value. If I read from scripture and another hears me it is the Words of God that can make a change in that persons heart. If the Prophet speaks as a Prophet then his Words come from God and not the Prophet. The ability to change a person from the Words that the Prophet spoke come from God and not the Prophet. The Prophet holds no power over the souls of men.If the Prophet speaks for God then those Words will have equal weight with scripture. Those words should be tested against scripture and we should feel in our heart that the new Words are from God. There is nothing automatic about revelation. Revelation should be difficult and many will fight over the Words. We have a long history of prophecy in scripture. It is not pretty much of it. But it is what it is. We are to learn from the Words that is why they are there. 1 Link to comment
jo1952 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Are you saying you wouldn't. We've had this discussion here before and you sound like you belong to that group that questions whether the current prophets are true prophets or are leading us astray. If that is not correct I would be happy to be corrected. Hi Deborah!I have already said that I do not think they are leading us astray. I also said that they are still men and are, therefore, fallible. Here is the promise which Joseph Smith made:“I testify in the name of Israel’s God that He will not suffer the head of the Church, him whom He has chosen to stand at the head, to transgress His laws and apostatize; the moment he should take a course that would in time lead to it, God would take him away. Why? Because to suffer a wicked man to occupy that position would be to allow, as it were, the fountain to become corrupted, which is something He will never permit.” (Joseph F. Smith, in Journal of Discourses, 24:192.)Here is something which Joseph Smith received as revelation while he was translating the Bible:JST Mark 9:44-46 (emphasis added)44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive. 46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out. How do you interpret the above? Here is something else which Joseph Smith received as revelation:D&C 107:78-8478 Again, verily, I say unto you, the most important business of the church, and the most adifficult cases of the church, inasmuch as there is not satisfaction upon the decision of the bishop or judges, it shall be handed over and carried up unto the council of the church, before the bPresidency of the High Priesthood.79 And the Presidency of the council of the High Priesthood shall have power to call other high priests, even twelve, to assist as counselors; and thus the Presidency of the High Priesthood and its counselors shall have power to decide upon testimony according to the laws of the church.80 And after this decision it shall be had in remembrance no more before the Lord; for this is the highest council of the church of God, and a final decision upon controversies in spiritual matters.81 There is not any person belonging to the church who is exempt from this council of the church.82 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the acommon council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;83 And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him.84 Thus, none shall be exempted from the ajustice and the blaws of God, that all things may be done in corder and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.Now, at first blush, it would almost seem that Joseph’s promise is in conflict with these two revelations he received. However, I would offer that the two revelations offer insight into how it is that Joseph could make such a promise. Just because someone has been called to be a Prophet or an Apostle or to be in any other position of authority and leadership over the Members of the Church does NOT guaranty that they are UNABLE to stray. As I said earlier in this thread, the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon all fell away. Even some of the Apostles whom Joseph called fell away. However, the Lord has provided the solution for how He would accomplish taking away a Prophet or other leader who transgresses or apostatizes; and that is through the manner of how He has organized His Church. Thus, NONE SHALL BE EXEMPTED FROM THE JUSTICE AND THE LAWS OF GOD. Inasmuch as we are then safe in allowing the Church Presidency to lead us, do not overlook what was revealed to Joseph in Mark 9:44: Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another…You are on a very slippery slope if you believe that you can start questioning the admonitions of the appointed prophets and apostles. To understand through personal inspiration whether something specifically applies to your circumstances is one thing. To begin to question everything and then say "well he could be leading us astray" if you don't like what is said is going down a different path altogether. Please show me the words I wrote which lead you to believe I am questioning the admonitions of the appointed prophets and apostles. As far as I can tell, I have only repeated what has already been taught to us. You still have not responded to my question about understanding that the Church leaders are here to assist us – but they cannot save us. It is our personal relationship with Jesus Christ which saves us. We have been promised that the Prophets in this dispensation will not be allowed to lead the church astray. When one begins to put his own or someone else's personal revelation above that of the Prophet he is treading dangerous ground if he chooses to remain a member in good faith.It is the Church that teaches us how to be guided and directed personally by the Holy Ghost. Jesus taught us that the Holy Ghost would lead us to all Truth. I have not seen or heard revelation received by our Prophets which conflicts with what the Holy Ghost has taught me. If the Leaders happen to teach something I had not previously known, then I take it to Father in prayer. So far, no conflict.Yes, we have been promised they will not lead US astray. We have NOT been promised that they are unable to personally go astray. We HAVE been given the directions on how to accomplish “plucking” out a leader who goes astray. These are two very separate and distinct issues. We have also been given the revelation the Lord gave to Joseph wherein we are not to trust another with our own salvation. IOW, the Leaders of the Church can lead and teach us to make the right choices; they cannot make our choices for us. The biggest point of this entire thread is that scripture is teaching us about prophesies for the end times. Church leaders have been teaching us to study scripture – which includes the end time prophesies. You seem to be offended and fearful of those who are discussing these very scriptures. You have even said you find it easier to just follow our leaders. But our Leaders are the ones telling us to study the scriptures. They are not going to hold our hands or force the contents of scriptures down our throats. If we are claiming to be following our Leaders, then I would think we should be much more familiar with the Book of Revelation than most people are.I am not going to repeat all of my comments because they are available to review and read. For some reason this thread appears to have offended you. You have therefore struck out at posters – which is not the usual type of post I have seen from you. You have got it in your head that people are trying to preach to you who YOU perceive are doing so as though they were claiming to be prophets. Inasmuch as I have seen no such claims, I additionally pointed out THROUGH SCRIPTURE, that there WILL be TRUE teachers and TRUE prophets whom the Lord will raise up in these latter-days. So I am concerned DUE to your reaction to the OP and other posts on this thread, that you are not going to allow yourself to see or hear any of those true teachers and true prophets when they DO rise up. You are concerned that they may be false teachers and false prophets because we know that these types of teachers and prophets will also be manifesting in the end times. It appears you would rather wait to see if our leaders label a teacher or prophet who rises up as being true or false. I would rather be able to make that decision on my own, as I have faith that the Holy Ghost is not going to lead me astray. I look to my relationship with God FIRST; then I look to our Leaders. We are taught that God should be FIRST in our lives; NOT our Leaders.I don’t know….maybe we are just talking past each other on some of these comments. Our Leaders can’t tell us everything to think, say, or do. If we are truly trying to be “every member a missionary”, I believe we should be educating ourselves above and beyond what the Leaders themselves may speak. And educating ourselves and reading and studying scriptures are something they have always taught us to do. Our beliefs and our education should not begin and end with what they have to say. That very thing (depending upon church leaders to tell us what we are allowed to believe or do or say), is what caused the ancient church to apostatize because the leaders of the ancient church rose to the occasion while the members let them. That is where "Orthodoxy" came from; that is where the Trinity came from; that is where the Creeds from, etc. Arguing over those things is where all the killing came from; where the Reformation eventually came from (and, sadly, even more killing); and thus the need for the Restoration. Love,jo Link to comment
Franktalk Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 One of the things you find out in doing a deep study of the Book of Revelation is how closely it is tied to the rest of the New Testament and the Old Testament. There are a few new items discussed but many of the points are found in another form somewhere else in scripture. From Genesis we get a description of the woman with the twelve stars. From Exodus we get the description of the Lamb of God. From Noah we find the prophetic days of the years. From Daniel we get the big picture but few details. In Daniel we also get the vision of the abomination of desolation in the early form in 160 BC and an illusion to the powers behind it. Then we find also areas that speak of Jacobs trouble. In Ezekiel we see the prophecies about the restoration of Israel which sets the stage for the final gathering of the Jews. In Matthew we find details about the end times and how the world will be closed out in this age. In Paul's writings we find him talking to people who stop living their lives because they expect the end at any moment. In the Book of Ruth we see a type for the Church and Christ played out, the Bride of Christ which is described in Revelation.From my perspective the Book of Revelation is where all scripture leads. It is not an end it is a beginning. It describes the beginning of Kingdom of Christ where He rules on the earth directly. How can we not want to know how that takes place? Link to comment
jo1952 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 To All:1Nephi chapter 14 links us directly to the Book of Revelation. Nephi is taught about the end times; but is forbidden to write everything he sees because someone else is supposed to write them. 17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.18 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!19 And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe.20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.21 Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.24 And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.25 But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.26 And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel.27 And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was John, according to the word of the angel.28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.29 And I bear record that I saw the things which my father saw, and the angel of the Lord did make them known unto me.30 And now I make an end of speaking concerning the things which I saw while I was carried away in the spirit; and if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen.Whenever I read this, I cannot help but be drawn to stop reading 1Nephi until I have re-read the Book of Revelation. I also see very specific connections in between our Standard Works – even the wording is similar and/or the same. Also, so many of our LDS beliefs are soooooo supported by Revelation. I will cover only a few of them in this post. I have added the bold emphasis.D&C 76:28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—Now compare the above with this:Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.Wow! These are great verses to refer to when arguing against the Trinity, as well as when discussing the existence of other gods, albeit we believe that there is only ONE Father in Heaven who is God Almighty, the Most High God. Satan, who is currently the god of the Earth, who “sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ” and who is going to be thrown into the Pit of Fire and Brimstone (Outer Darkness); and Christ will receive the deed to the earth (the sealed scroll) and will be become the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!! Great voices in heaven will be saying “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ” the complete defeat of satan’s efforts to “take the kingdom of our God and his Christ”!I think Franktalk may have already spoken about this passage. It is such so astonishing however, that I am going to repeat it:Rev 13:13-15 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. This is teaching us that Satan will be manifesting the same types of miracles which Jesus and the Apostles performed. Also, remember that one of Jesus’ trademark signs of power was to make fire come down from heaven. And now we learn that Satan is even going to make a statue come to life (the image of the beast). These are tremendous powers – so much so, that they can fool even the Elect of God! So, how do we tell the difference? Through the same method used to determine any false teacher or false prophet. Satan and his followers will not confess that Jesus is the Christ, they will not give glory to Father, they will teach man to glorify and give allegiance to Satan. It is the same old story – the very thing which got Satan and his followers kicked out of Father’s presence to begin with. Rev 17:12-1312 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These verses teach us many things; one important one is also an argument against the Trinity. Where the Trinity teaches that the three Persons of the Trinity are of the same essence and same “mind”, one could then ask a Trinitarian if the ten kings above, who “have one mind” are really only one king. Since they “have one mind”, does this make the ten a god? Anyway, it’s late – so that is enough for now.Love,jo Link to comment
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