Practical Guide To The End Times

[Franktalk]

In my discussions of the end times with many people I have run across many who have not taken upon them selves to know the scripture about the tribulation and the Great Tribulation. So I am listing some things that you should know. I do this for basic information but I hope to start many on the path to study the end times.

When are the end times?

We do not know exactly. But we know there will be signs in heaven and earthquakes in odd places (Biblical scale events). We also know there will be some kind of peace deal between Israel and their historical enemies. Now it may not be a document but it will be enforced by some world ruler. The world will be ruled by ten people. We don't know if that is the whole world or the world of the Roman empire. I think it is the whole world. Three of the ten are killed and a new guy rises to be the 8th. He will be the anti-Christ. Times leading up to the end will be very bad. The restrainer is removed before the anti-Christ is revealed. This means that evil is not bound. The end times last seven years of days.

Rapture?

Some say there is no rapture or it comes later. It is my belief that as the restrainer leaves the rapture happens. If there is one it has to happen before the signs. I say this because the rapture must be a surprise. The restrainer is not the Holy Ghost, some believe it is Michael.

Evil spirits and their power.

As the restrainer leaves evil spirits will start to manifest. People will be raised from the dead. Fire will come down from heaven. Concrete or metal statues will talk and move, they will kill people. We will know a spirit is not from God because it will not confess the Gospel. The core Gospel - Jesus came in the flesh, the only begotten Son of the Father. Died for our sins. He did rise on the third day. He sits on the right hand of the Father and will judge the living and the dead. It is likely that Nephilim will be around as well. These are offspring of fallen angels (part fallen angel and part flesh). These would be giants and real mean.

The anti-Christ

The rise of the anti-Christ will happen before the start of the last seven years. He will be a very smart guy. He probably fixes the worlds economy. A religious leader who declares himself god three and one half years into the last seven years. He receives a wound above his eye and on his hand. He will declare that all people who wish to buy or sell will be required to take his mark. Those who refuse will be put to death.

Prophets

Two prophets will show up at the Temple Mound at the start of the seven years. Anyone who attempts to kill them is killed by them by fire which comes out of their mouth. Many people on the world hate these prophets because they stop the rain. After three and a half years the two prophets are killed. Their bodies are left on the street but after a short time they are taken to heaven.

The Abomination of Desolation

At the three and a half year point the anti_Christ will stand in the Holy of Holies and announce himself god. All those in Judea are to go immediately to Petra. Angels will in Petra to protect you.

Judgments

At the three and a half year mark the judgments start. Trees and the grass are burned up. Everything in the sea dies. Water is poisoned. I think that in one of the major earthquakes the rotation of the earth changes. I think the day is 16 hours long instead of 24 hours. This shortens the Great Tribulation but does not change the number of days.

War with God?

An army gathers to fight God at the end of the seven years. There is no fight. Jesus comes down and tosses the army into a wine press where He crushes them. Then Jesus walks to Petra.

Obviously there is a great deal more but if you know this you will know not to worship fallen angels, the anti-Christ, or statues. You know not to take the mark of the beast. Most Christians and Jews are killed. At least 2/3 of the Jews are killed.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Franktalk

[Paddy]

Concrete or metal statues will talk and move, they will kill people.

Franktalk

I am sorry but I somehow don't see the statue of liberty becoming animated and wreaking havoc on New York city. Where does this idea come from??

Paddy

Edited August 4, 2011 by Paddy

[The Nehor]

Franktalk

I am sorry but I somehow don't see the statue of liberty becoming animated an wreaking havoc on New York city. Where does this idea come from??

Paddy

Ghostbusters 2

[Paddy]

Ghostbusters 2

I must of missed that video in seminary??!!

[Franktalk]

Franktalk

I am sorry but I somehow don't see the statue of liberty becoming animated and wreaking havoc on New York city. Where does this idea come from??

Paddy

Revelation 13:15

15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

A 3D image of the beast would be a statue. It says he will give the image life so this is not a TV image or anything we can do today. Since the Statue of Liberty is not the image of the beast it would not be given life. At least that is not in scripture.

[rameumptom]

Of course, if we take the symbolism that John is discussing and over-literalize it, we will, of course, have statues that move, etc.

As for the rapture and several other points made here, they are all very speculative, and based on one very narrow reading of the scriptures, particularly in Revelation. The concept that the earth's rotation will slow down to a 16 hour day is interesting - because it would slow the earth down so much that the atmosphere would quickly blow away into space and EVERYTHING would immediately die, as well. And if that doesn't happen, then the sun's impact on the earth would be severe enough to destroy everything by reducing the light by 8 hours a day. Imagine, this requires the revolution of the earth to slow down by 1/3. The destruction occurring in doing so would make the movie 2012 look like child's play.

I reject the concept of a tribulation and then a great tribulation. There is no pre-tribulation rapture. Such a concept only became popular in the last century or so, started in Scotland by a preacher there in the late 19th century (IIRC). Piece-mealing together verses here and there to make a new concept means we have to disregard the majority of what the scriptures teach.

[volgadon]

To Petra????

[Franktalk]

Of course, if we take the symbolism that John is discussing and over-literalize it, we will, of course, have statues that move, etc.

As for the rapture and several other points made here, they are all very speculative, and based on one very narrow reading of the scriptures, particularly in Revelation. The concept that the earth's rotation will slow down to a 16 hour day is interesting - because it would slow the earth down so much that the atmosphere would quickly blow away into space and EVERYTHING would immediately die, as well. And if that doesn't happen, then the sun's impact on the earth would be severe enough to destroy everything by reducing the light by 8 hours a day. Imagine, this requires the revolution of the earth to slow down by 1/3. The destruction occurring in doing so would make the movie 2012 look like child's play.

I reject the concept of a tribulation and then a great tribulation. There is no pre-tribulation rapture. Such a concept only became popular in the last century or so, started in Scotland by a preacher there in the late 19th century (IIRC). Piece-mealing together verses here and there to make a new concept means we have to disregard the majority of what the scriptures teach.

The earths rotation changes all of the time with earthquakes. It just happens to be a small amount of time. In order to get to a sixteen hour day the rotation would need to speed up not slow down. A small rise to the sea floor around the equator could do this. The weight shift of the seas away from the equator would speed up the earth. But of course I do not know the method that God will use. As to the atmosphere it is held by gravity and in order for the rest of the prophecy to take place it appears that our atmosphere stays around. Atmospheres are stripped off planets because of solar winds. Our magnetic field protects our atmosphere by causing the solar wind to move around the planet for the most part.

Daniel the prophet took Jeremiah literally for the seventy year punishment of Israel. If Daniel reads scripture literally then I will follow his lead and not yours. After all Daniel is the beloved of God.

[Franktalk]

To Petra????

There is of course some speculation here. I think the Christians who fled the Roman armies around 70 AD went there and there are a couple of other places in scripture which lead to this conclusion as well. Jordan has and is a place that pretty much stays out of the wars with the Jews. I think there is a spiritual reason for this. If you want more detail I will find it for you.

[bluebell]

Ever since reading the book by Robert Young titled something like 'As a theif in the night" i have steered clear of this kind of stuff.

I've never felt a darker spirit than as i was reading that book.

[Franktalk]

Ever since reading the book by Robert Young titled something like 'As a theif in the night" i have steered clear of this kind of stuff.

I've never felt a darker spirit than as i was reading that book.

More reason for us to spread the Word. Many times in the past people of faith have been held accountable for knowing prophecy. This time will not be any different.

[seriously honestly]

I reject the concept of a tribulation and then a great tribulation. There is no pre-tribulation rapture. Such a concept only became popular in the last century or so, started in Scotland by a preacher there in the late 19th century (IIRC). Piece-mealing together verses here and there to make a new concept means we have to disregard the majority of what the scriptures teach.

You're free to disagree with it; there is nothing in the Bible that says you have to believe in a pre-trib rapture (or that you have to believe in it at all). Personally, I'm hoping for a pre-trib rapture, but I'm not counting on it.

[Questing Beast]

You all know, I expect, that Joseph Smith avoided speculations about "the last days", i.e. Daniel and Revelation? He only spoke on this topic because he was pestered into it - continually, I think.

I used to be intensely interested in knowing about "the end times" aka "the last days", aka "signs of the times", all leading up to "the second coming", etc.

Some people O.D. on it and then feel compelled to write their own books on their image of "what is coming", i.e. what to expect. To me it is all a colossal waste of time and energy....

[alter idem]

Frank talk, thanks for explaining your views. However, I'd like you to clarify what faith you are. I'm pretty sure you are not LDS because this doesn't sound like an LDS view of the Last days. Are you Evangelical?

I agree with Rameumptum, this is a very literal reading of Revelation and though some LDS interpretations are on the literal side (the two prophets lying in the street), LDS are more flexible and not so certain of how John's prophecies will be ultimately fulfilled. We don't believe in a 'Rapture' and then tribulation. We believe there is no escaping the difficulties of the last days leading up to the second coming of the Savior--except in the warning to 'stand in Holy Places' and that Zion will be a refuge. Even so, the righteous will not be spared from suffering.

An Exception among LDS is Robert Young. I've read his books as well and his is more of a literalist interpretation. I won't say I felt a dark spirit, but I felt many of his claims were not correct.

[alter idem]

There is of course some speculation here. I think the Christians who fled the Roman armies around 70 AD went there and there are a couple of other places in scripture which lead to this conclusion as well. Jordan has and is a place that pretty much stays out of the wars with the Jews. I think there is a spiritual reason for this. If you want more detail I will find it for you.

I believe it would be overstating to say 'Jordan has and is a place that pretty much stays out of wars with the Jews'. They were involved in the fighting in '48 and '67 and lost land to Israel.

[HeatherAnn]

Frank,

I believe it's good to prepare for the worst & hope for the best.

I believe the scriptures are not a fortune teller, nor a history book, but a spiritual guide to the kingdom of God within & among us.

They have the most good when we "liken the scripture to us" not use them to fear... since God is love & perfect love casteth out fear.

I'm concerned that too much fear of the "last days" hoopla will be a self-fufilling prophesy because belief is powerful, especially when many believe it!

Rapture is: A feeling of intense pleasure... hopefully we can all feel that at times!

Evil Spirits are those spirits we resonate with... when we're angry or joyful, we attract & are attracted by those who feel similarly, in body or spirit.

Christ is Divinity - God - goodness... the gospel, good news... truth. Anybody who is against truth is anti-Christ in a way (which would include us all to an extent).

Prophets are those who prophesy, & I think also those who lead a group in a positive direction... ie Moses, Joseph Smith, Martin Luther King...

I'm not sure about "abomination of desolation" - but I think it's similar to the symbolism of Jesus being cruicified between 2 thieves... one aknowledged his fault & Jesus said he'd be with him in paradise. The other (who may represent the abomination of desolation & anti-christ) denied wrong-doing & repremanded Jesus for not saving them physically.

The chaos written about may happen... earthquakes, wars & rumours of wars, famines, pestilences... but when have they not happened? We're just more aware these days because we have media that makes us more globally aware.

Judgement, as Joseph Smith explained, "A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner."

War with God is like what Jacob experienced... when he wrestled with God & his name was changed from Jacob (meaning "persevere with God") to Israel (meaning, "God contended" or prince of God). -Genesis 32

[HeatherAnn]

Of course, if we take the symbolism that John is discussing and over-literalize it, we will, of course, have statues that move, etc.

As for the rapture and several other points made here, they are all very speculative, and based on one very narrow reading of the scriptures, particularly in Revelation. The concept that the earth's rotation will slow down to a 16 hour day is interesting - because it would slow the earth down so much that the atmosphere would quickly blow away into space and EVERYTHING would immediately die, as well. And if that doesn't happen, then the sun's impact on the earth would be severe enough to destroy everything by reducing the light by 8 hours a day. Imagine, this requires the revolution of the earth to slow down by 1/3. The destruction occurring in doing so would make the movie 2012 look like child's play.

I reject the concept of a tribulation and then a great tribulation. There is no pre-tribulation rapture. Such a concept only became popular in the last century or so, started in Scotland by a preacher there in the late 19th century (IIRC). Piece-mealing together verses here and there to make a new concept means we have to disregard the majority of what the scriptures teach.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

Some scriptures have really intimidated me - especially Isaiah & Revelations! So much symbolism - I'm not sure what to make of it all!

I believe scriptures are meant to be likened to us within, spiritually (of course, how that's done is unique to each person, which is the beauty & challenge of symbolism).

I really don't know what the Revelation authors intended...

Yet, I was thinking about the seals mentioned in Revelations... which have been interpreted to be a time-line, yet I wonder if it's more a spiritual map...

Here's a possible interpretation...(some terms I learned from "Putting on the Mind of Christ")

1st seal, a crown is given - birth/life - Archaic & Magical Consciousness

2nd seal, a sword is given - ability to discern good from evil - Mythic Consciousness

3rd seal, balances are had - questioning myths - Rational Consciousness level

4th seal - power was given - can see many perspectives - Vision-Logic Consciousness

5th seal - Shown souls who were slain for the word of God - fears conquered for love - Psychic/Spirit Consciousness

6th seal - earthquakes, sun black, stars fall - see our imperfections "bursts our egotistical bubble" - Dark night of the senses

7th seal - silence, then "all h*** breaks loose" with wars & plagues - Confronting "feelings buried alive"- Dark Night/Confronting Shadow Self

Christ reigns - Spiritual union with God, Our Creators - Christ Consciousness

[Joseph Antley]

I could beat down any zombie statues.

[volgadon]

There is of course some speculation here.

Some seems an understatement.

I think the Christians who fled the Roman armies around 70 AD went there and there are a couple of other places in scripture which lead to this conclusion as well.

According to Eusebius, Christians fled to Pella, which is not far from Beit-Shean on the other side of the Jordan. It is to the far north of Petra.

Jordan has and is a place that pretty much stays out of the wars with the Jews.

It stayed out of '73, but that is about it. Didn't exist during the Jewish Revolt. Right now of course there is a peace treaty but I fail to see why that would be honoured in your apocalyptic scenario.

[bluebell]

More reason for us to spread the Word. Many times in the past people of faith have been held accountable for knowing prophecy. This time will not be any different.

I agree that warning people is important, but i think the kind of warnings that need to be made are the types made during general conference-to live providently, to store food, and to be spiritually prepared.

I don't think there's any good that comes from 'end-times' hobbies such as we see sometimes. I've known people that actually were exicted/couldn't wait for horrible things to happen because they thought it would vindicate what they had been telling everyone and what they had been spending all their time, money, and energy on. So sad on many levels.

[Franktalk]

Frank talk, thanks for explaining your views. However, I'd like you to clarify what faith you are. I'm pretty sure you are not LDS because this doesn't sound like an LDS view of the Last days. Are you Evangelical?

I am LDS. The reason I am is because the LDS and the Book of Mormon match the way I have interpreted the Bible. When I read the BoM I did not see much that was new. There are many LDS that read scripture quite literally.

There is a reason I look to interpret prophecy. For one reason we are told to study the scriptures and prophecy is part of it. The big reason is that people of faith have and will be held accountable for knowing scripture and the proper interpretation of prophecy. Let me list the big problems that have surfaced due to weak study.

The first one is the 69 week prophecy of Daniel in which the Jews were told to the day that the Messiah would come into Jerusalem. The prophecy was on the Jews and on the city so the Jews were blinded to the Messiah and the city was destroyed by the Roman armies. Because they missed their day.

The second misread was with the early Church fathers which read Peter as the church and the binding and loosening belonging to the Bishop of Rome. This caused the fall of the church and created a need for the restoration.

Seeing that a misread of scripture can cause problems I will continue my study. Yes we have a modern day prophet but he is limited to just what he is told to say. He may not even understand what he is told to say. God's message is meant to go directly to us. We are each held accountable for what we do with the message. Even Daniel the beloved of God did not understand what he was told to write. We are to question everyone and test them against scripture. How can we do that if we don't know scripture? If we take the word of church leaders with out a test then we are no better off than the Jews who blindly followed the Pharisees and Saducees.

As with most scripture there are layers of understanding. One layer is the literal. In most cases it is the most important. But that does not mean that other layers should be ignored.

[HeatherAnn]

I could beat down any zombie statues.

lol I don't know, Joseph. If they're anything like the Thinker guy, I'd watch out if I were you.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/The_Thinker

Check out those biceps!!

Edited August 5, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Franktalk]

I believe it would be overstating to say 'Jordan has and is a place that pretty much stays out of wars with the Jews'. They were involved in the fighting in '48 and '67 and lost land to Israel.

I agree that they have entered into wars. But you should consider that when the Jews entered Jerusalem the armed Jordanian soldiers left without a real fight.

and of course there is this:

Ezekiel 38:13

13Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

It appears that Saudi Arabia and Jordan sit on the side lines as the Magog invasion takes place.

[HeatherAnn]

...There is a reason I look to interpret prophecy. For one reason we are told to study the scriptures and prophecy is part of it. The big reason is that people of faith have and will be held accountable for knowing scripture and the proper interpretation of prophecy. Let me list the big problems that have surfaced due to weak study.

...We are each held accountable for what we do with the message. Even Daniel the beloved of God did not understand what he was told to write. We are to question everyone and test them against scripture. How can we do that if we don't know scripture? If we take the word of church leaders with out a test then we are no better off than the Jews who blindly followed the Pharisees and Saducees.

As with most scripture there are layers of understanding. One layer is the literal. In most cases it is the most important. But that does not mean that other layers should be ignored.

Frank, I agree that scripture are understood in many different ways... the beauty & challenge of symbolism & parables.

I also believe that we should question... it is given us to discern - & if we don't exercise that, we're giving up our free agency.

IMO, discerning involves studying it out in our minds (& in literature etc.), considering our own experiences & going by the spirit.

You mentioned that we will be & are held accountable for knowing & properly understanding scripture.

Would you expand on that?

Who holds us accountable & for what purpose? Isn't God love? Why would LOVE be so cruel as to punish those who are illiterate or who have been taught incorrect scriptural interpretations?

[volgadon]

I agree that they have entered into wars. But you should consider that when the Jews entered Jerusalem the armed Jordanian soldiers left without a real fight.

You've never been to Ammunition Hill or the Damascus Gate, I take it. Jordan also bombarded the western city quite heavily.

and of course there is this:

Ezekiel 38:13

13Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

It appears that Saudi Arabia and Jordan sit on the side lines as the Magog invasion takes place.

Neither Sheba, Dedan, nor Tarshish were in the territory of the modern Kingdom of Transjordan.