What Message Does The Bible Send Re. Polygamy?

[Ariarates]

I asked this in another thread, where it was kind of off-topic. I think it merits its own thread. I wrote:

I don't know very much about the Bible except what I've been taught in Seminary and Sunday School etc., so my layman's perspective is probably limited, but I don't come away from reading the Bible with a feeling that God ordained it [polygamy]. Are there any instances of polygamy in the Bible that aren't fraught with deceit, betrayal and anguish? What is the message the Bible is sending with these stories?

There was one reply from Bluebell:

Probably the best defense of polygamy in the bible is where it's taught that some of the wives of david were given to him by the Lord through the prophet Nathan and how the 12 tribes of Israel-God's chosen people-were created through polygamy which God condoned.

Any additional thoughts? As to Bluebell's reply: are David and Jacob good examples of how to make polygamy work? I personally don't think so, all things considered. Maybe they were both commanded/permitted, but they both made a serious mess of it.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Ariarates

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Any additional thoughts? As to Bluebell's reply: are David and Jacob good examples of how to make polygamy work? I personally don't think so, all things considered. Maybe they were both commanded/permitted, but they both made a serious mess of it.

"Making it work?" and "Is polygamy ordained of God?" are 2 totally different questions. I would not say that David is a very good example.

Lets put it simply. Were in the bible is polygamy condemned? There are a few places were some people are told to have one wife, for instance in the case of a bishop. But I am not aware of any statements that "Polygamy is a sin". Jesus never condemned it.

Also consider the Law of Moses, there is a president set there that if a man die and leave his wife then the brother can take her. There is no exclusion if the brother already had a wife.

I think using the bible to condemn polygamy is on very poor footing. I would say the bible supports polygamy more than it condemns it.

[LeSellers]

What is the message the Bible is sending with these stories?

...

Maybe they were both commanded/permitted, but they both made a serious mess of it.

You might start here:Truthbearers.

It's a group of self-styled "Christian Polygamists" who believe the Bible tells us that polygamy is commanded of God, and is the only correct form of marriage. (This might be overstating their position, I'll let you decide on that. In any case they stridently deny any association with Joseph Smith.)

Lehi

[bluebell]

"Making it work?" and "Is polygamy ordained of God?" are 2 totally different questions.

I'm seconding what Mola said.

Showing that someone can be a prophet of God, in favor with Him, AND practice polygamy is different then showing that polygamy can be a positive experience for everyone involved.

I think the bible supports the first assertion, while ignoring the second.

[cinepro]

I think using the bible to condemn polygamy is on very poor footing. I would say the bible supports polygamy more than it condemns it.

Then again, I'm not so sure I want to be basing my moral code on the Old Testament at all.

[Ariarates]

"Making it work?" and "Is polygamy ordained of God?" are 2 totally different questions. I would not say that David is a very good example.

That is my point. Is there any good example in the Bible? If not, what does that tell us?

I think using the bible to condemn polygamy is on very poor footing. I would say the bible supports polygamy more than it condemns it.

I'm not trying to condemn polygamy. I am challenging the assertion that the Bible supports it. From my layman's perspective, every time polygamy is mentioned in the Bible, it is a tale of desparation and suffering. Or am I mistaken?

[BCSpace]

What Message Does The Bible Send Re. Polygamy?

That God authorizies it from time to time.

[bluebell]

That is my point. Is there any good example in the Bible? If not, what does that tell us?

I'm not trying to condemn polygamy. I am challenging the assertion that the Bible supports it. From my layman's perspective, every time polygamy is mentioned in the Bible, it is a tale of desparation and suffering. Or am I mistaken?

Maybe you could point out all the times that polygamy is mentioned in the bible and then explain how each one is a 'tale of desperation and suffering'. That would probably help in the discussion.

[Ariarates]

That God authorizies it from time to time.

Or that God allows it (as men have their agency) but it always ends up hurting people?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That is my point. Is there any good example in the Bible? If not, what does that tell us?

That is? Ok.

I'm not trying to condemn polygamy. I am challenging the assertion that the Bible supports it. From my layman's perspective, every time polygamy is mentioned in the Bible, it is a tale of desperation and suffering. Or am I mistaken?

It is? Moses was a tale of desperation and suffering? Issac, was a tale of desperation and suffering? Jacob was a tale of desperation and suffering? I know, David was not a very good example, however nothing bad is spoken of until we get to Bathsheba. And Solomon just want more than he was supposed to have. I am not aware of any verses of scripture saying "how awful it was that he had multiple wives." I think this idea that it is "tale of desperation and suffering." is something you are reading into the text.

What examples do you have out side of Abraham were this is the case?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Or that God allows it (as men have their agency) but it always ends up hurting people?

CFR please. Please show us using only the bible that "it always ends up hurting people".

[Ariarates]

Maybe you could point out all the times that polygamy is mentioned in the bible and then explain how each one is a 'tale of desperation and suffering'. That would probably help in the discussion.

I wanted to make clear in the OP that I am not qualified to "point out all the times that polygamy is mentioned in the bible". I know of only a few examples: Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon. As far as tales of desparation and anguish are concerned, I offer - off the top of my head: Hagar, Leah (look at how she named her sons), Uriah and if I remember correctly Solomon was outright condemned for taking an idolatrous wife or two (or or a few hundred) too many.

These examples do not paint a pretty picture about polygamy. I was curious how people can point to the Bible as supportive of polygamy. All I see are dire tales of warning.

[Sevenbak]

I asked this in another thread, where it was kind of off-topic. I think it merits its own thread. I wrote:

I don't know very much about the Bible except what I've been taught in Seminary and Sunday School etc., so my layman's perspective is probably limited, but I don't come away from reading the Bible with a feeling that God ordained it [polygamy]. Are there any instances of polygamy in the Bible that aren't fraught with deceit, betrayal and anguish? What is the message the Bible is sending with these stories?

There was one reply from Bluebell:

Probably the best defense of polygamy in the bible is where it's taught that some of the wives of david were given to him by the Lord through the prophet Nathan and how the 12 tribes of Israel-God's chosen people-were created through polygamy which God condoned.

Any additional thoughts? As to Bluebell's reply: are David and Jacob good examples of how to make polygamy work? I personally don't think so, all things considered. Maybe they were both commanded/permitted, but they both made a serious mess of it.

I sometimes get a chuckle when protestant critics of the practice of biblical polygamy try to reconcile Martin Luther's take on it.

"I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter." (De Wette II, 459, ibid., pp. 329-330.)

[Ariarates]

It is? Moses was a tale of desperation and suffering? Issac, was a tale of desperation and suffering? Jacob was a tale of desperation and suffering? I know, David was not a very good example, however nothing bad is spoken of until we get to Bathsheba. And Solomon just want more than he was supposed to have. I am not aware of any verses of scripture saying "how awful it was that he had multiple wives." I think this idea that it is "tale of desperation and suffering." is something you are reading into the text.

What examples do you have out side of Abraham were this is the case?

Just focus on the women for a change. And Isaac wasn't polygamous, if I remember correctly.

[Ariarates]

CFR please. Please show us using only the bible that "it always ends up hurting people".

See the OP and my post no. 12 for why I cannot meet this CFR. I am claiming ignorance and want YOU to enlighten ME :-)

[Ariarates]

(De Wette II, 459, ibid., pp. 329-330.)

I have all of Luther's writings in German. Can you give me a reference that relates to his writings? I have no idea what "De Wette" refers to. Thanks!

[Sevenbak]

I have all of Luther's writings in German. Can you give me a reference that relates to his writings? I have no idea what "De Wette" refers to. Thanks!

De Wette was a german biblical scholar. Apparently the Luther quote was quite controversial at the time, and it found in many Catholic anti-Luther sources.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Just focus on the women for a change. And Isaac wasn't polygamous, if I remember correctly.

Ok, I am not aware of too many Women really taking issue with Polygamy from a biblical stand point. Look at Sariah. She even offered her hand maid to Abraham. I guess it could be argued either way with Abraham. She did not do it out of desperation. She seem to be of good spirits. Now, Jacob there may be some jealousy there. But that was one of the four wives that took issue. Solomon sinned solely because he, of his own accord, took too many wives. Are the one's that were given him a bad thing? What of David? Outside of Bathsheba, was there any talk of how bad it was? I am not aware of anything here.

I guess the way you worded the OP it sounded like you were making an argument. Are you perhaps backing down from that?

Lets stick with Abraham. He is the best known. Through out your best arguments why you think his tale is one of "desperation and suffering".

[Ariarates]

De Wette was a german biblical scholar. Apparently the Luther quote was quite controversial at the time, and it found in many Catholic anti-Luther sources.

The quote you posted refers to a Latin text. My Latin is a bit rusty but your quote does not appear to match the Latin text very closely (although it conveys the gist of the first sentences on p. 459). Did you get this from a quote book or something? I'd be interested to follow up on it.

[Sevenbak]

Look at Sariah. She even offered her hand maid to Abraham.

This remind me of something I've thought about...

Going way far out on a controversial tangent here, but I've always been a bit intrigued with the wording Mary uses in responding to the angel Gabriel.

"Behold, the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me, according to thy word."

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm....

[Sevenbak]

The quote you posted refers to a Latin text. My Latin is a bit rusty but your quote does not appear to match the Latin text very closely (although it conveys the gist of the first sentences on p. 459). Did you get this from a quote book or something? I'd be interested to follow up on it.

Here ya go, off a Catholic forum.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=188987

[LeSellers]

Just focus on the women for a change. And Isaac wasn't polygamous, if I remember correctly.

There is no specific text we can point to to show him as a Plural Husband. However, as polygyny was the norm in his era, it would be odd to find that he was not.

We have a good reason for the explicit notations about Abraham and Jacob/Israel's multiple wives: their sons' stations were important to the story of the origins of the Israelites. If Isaac had had plural wives, as I suspect, but do not yet believe, the additional children would have played no role in Moses' story, so they (and their mother/s) would have been ignored.

Lehi

[Ariarates]

Ok, I am not aware of too many Women really taking issue with Polygamy from a biblical stand point. Look at Sariah. She even offered her hand maid to Abraham. I guess it could be argued either way with Abraham. She did not do it out of desperation. She seem to be of good spirits.

You and I read the Bible quite differently, it seems. I don't think Sarah was happy to be barren and have to give her slave to Abraham. I also don't think Hagar was too happy with being sent away when Sarah got jealous. How do you think the boy Ishmael felt about this? Good spirits?

Now, Jacob there may be some jealousy there. But that was one of the four wives that took issue.

Look at the names Leah gave her sons and why she did so. This woman yearned her whole life for the love of a man who didn't want her in the first place (but wasn't too shy to jump her from time to time, apparently) and she had no place to go. What a deep human tragedy.

Solomon sinned solely because he, of his own accord, took too many wives. Are the one's that were given him a bad thing?

First off, I'm thinking that if you have 300 wives (not to mention 700 concubines), these wives are not going to get much affection from their man, wouldn't you agree? Sounds to me that they were treated as property. And yes, the ones that were "given" him were a bad thing because, according to the Bible, they turned his heart away from God. I may just have seminary and sunday school experience, but I did pay attention!

What of David? Outside of Bathsheba, was there any talk of how bad it was? I am not aware of anything here.

You're right, nothing but two of the most grievous sins a man can commit: murder and adultery. I'm sorry, I don't know why I mention such trivial matters.

I guess the way you worded the OP it sounded like you were making an argument. Are you perhaps backing down from that?

Not at all. All I said is that the way I read the Bible, I'm not getting the impression that the Bible is telling me that polygamy is a good thing. I left open the possibility that I don't know enough about the Bible so I wanted to find out if there is anything positive about polygamy in the Bible.

Lets stick with Abraham. He is the best known. Through out your best arguments why you think his tale is one of "desperation and suffering".

See above. Good heavens, have you ever heard of the Jewish-Arab conflict? Talk about polygamy fall-out (ok, that's a stretch, but not by much).

[Sevenbak]

There is no specific text we can point to to show him as a Plural Husband. However, as polygyny was the norm in his era, it would be odd to find that he was not.

We have a good reason for the explicit notations about Abraham and Jacob/Israel's multiple wives: their sons' stations were important to the story of the origins of the Israelites. If Isaac had had plural wives, as I suspect, but do not yet believe, the additional children would have played no role in Moses' story, so they (and their mother/s) would have been ignored.

Lehi

Though not supported in biblical text, we also have D&C 132:1 that states that Isaac was included among the polygamous fathers.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You and I read the Bible quite differently, it seems. I don't think Sarah was happy to be barren and have to give her slave to Abraham. I also don't think Hagar was too happy with being sent away when Sarah got jealous. How do you think the boy Ishmael felt about this? Good spirits?

So you read thing into the text that are not there. Good for you. I do it too.

Look at the names Leah gave her sons and why she did so. This woman yearned her whole life for the love of a man who didn't want her in the first place (but wasn't too shy to jump her from time to time, apparently) and she had no place to go. What a deep human tragedy.

I admited that there was some jealousy there.

First off, I'm thinking that if you have 300 wives (not to mention 700 concubines), these wives are not going to get much affection from their man, wouldn't you agree? Sounds to me that they were treated as property. And yes, the ones that were "given" him were a bad thing because, according to the Bible, they turned his heart away from God. I may just have seminary and sunday school experience, but I did pay attention!

So you are looking at this through a modern lens. Color me unimpressed. Look, Solomon was condemned because he took more wives then were given him from God. There is nothing in the bible about "how the wives felt". As far as culture of the day, it was completely normal to have more than one wife. In certain parts of the world it is still normal to have more than one wife.

You're right, nothing but two of the most grievous sins a man can commit: murder and adultery. I'm sorry, I don't know why I mention such trivial matters.

But a polygamous marriage is not adultery. You are making this out to be more than the text ever states.

Not at all. All I said is that the way I read the Bible, I'm not getting the impression that the Bible is telling me that polygamy is a good thing. I left open the possibility that I don't know enough about the Bible so I wanted to find out if there is anything positive about polygamy in the Bible.

and you cannot show one word from God condemning polygamy. Does that not tell you something?

See above. Good heavens, have you ever heard of the Jewish-Arab conflict? Talk about polygamy fall-out (ok, that's a stretch, but not by much).

I have, but I fail to see what " the Jewish-Arab-" conflict has to do with Polygamy under the scope of the OP.

You see, Hagar was told to leave not because Sarah was jealous but because Ismael was beating up Issac. Nothing about polygamy there.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram