Shaken Faith

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

One of the most difficult trials of faith, IMO, occurs when a person attaches their faith in some way to a desired outcome.

That desired outcome might be something as trivial as finding something that was lost, preservation of wealth, preservation of a job, preservation of health, or preservation of the life of a loved one.

How have folks here dealt with the issue of "not attaching their faith in some way with a desired outcome?"

[Garden Girl]

Thy will be done...

Understand that our desires are not always what is in our best interest... ask for guidance in knowing the will of our Heavenly Father... pray earnestly and then wait for inspiration and listen.

GG

[Deborah]

How have folks here dealt with the issue of "not attaching their faith in some way with a desired outcome?"

In the first place why would anyone do that, particularly when we say as GG pointed out "Thy will be done." Even Christ in Gethsemane said that.

Plus I think when you've been in the church long enough to see some pretty powerful responses to prayer and faith you can let go of those things where you may not have gotten what you thought you wanted or needed.

[bluebell]

One of the most difficult trials of faith, IMO, occurs when a person attaches their faith in some way to a desired outcome.

That desired outcome might be something as trivial as finding something that was lost, preservation of wealth, preservation of a job, preservation of health, or preservation of the life of a loved one.

How have folks here dealt with the issue of "not attaching their faith in some way with a desired outcome?"

I think that can be pretty easy to do, especially if you truly believed that the outcome you got was an answer from God, but then it didn't work out the way you thought it would.

Personally, one commandment from Jesus helps me to keep my faith strong. It's in Mormon 9:27 specifically but Christ actually says it over and over in many different verses and books of scripture.

The main part of that verse I'm speaking of is when Christ says "Doubt not, but be believing..."

I read that awhile back and it really hit me-how often Christ commands us not to doubt, but to believe. I know He's not saying to blindly obey, or to stop using our reason and intellect, but i believe He is saying that we need to consciously make the decision to believe sometimes, that we need to put more energy into believing than into doubt. I don't think He would command such a thing unless it was important to us that we do it, unless simply 'doubting' could have severe consequences.

As i've practiced trying to keep His commandment to be believing, i've noticed that my faith has improved and my relationship with Him has been strengthened

[Duncan]

I have had many times when I wanted something to happen or not happen and when it did or didn't happen I admit I was fazed but God delivered me out stuff in ways that are beyond perplexing as to how they could come about. I stand in absolute awe of God!

[wenglund]

One of the most difficult trials of faith, IMO, occurs when a person attaches their faith in some way to a desired outcome.

Faith in Christ is unavoidably to place faith in a desired outcome--that being, salvation and exaltation, or in other words becoming like Christ. Such is the very intent and purpose of the gospel, and the process of growth in faith (see Alma 32). If such outcomes are not progressively forthcoming, then it makes sense to lose faith.

However, as you suggest, people may experience trials or loss of faith by expecting outcomes not directly intended by the gospel, like expecting pristine church history or infallible leaders or financial success or satisfying answers now to all our questions or even marriage on our own terms as well as the things mentioned in the OP.

I have dealt with this issue by frequently attempting to realign my expected outcomes to comport with the purposes of the gospel and the object of my faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Libs]

people may experience trials or loss of faith by expecting outcomes not directly intended by the gospel' date=' like expecting pristine church history or infallible leaders [/quote']

This was my experience. Loss of faith over things that I had a real problem, in dealing with, regarding church history. Michael Ash talks about having our expectations too high for leadership, and I probably did have high expectations, but that didn't seem unreasonable, considering the claims being made by Joseph Smith and the Church.

In retrospect, I was probably too idealistic. But, the things that bothered me were not small things, IMO, and even though I am not as idealistic, today, some of those things still bother me.

Edit: And, yet, I have to add, that there are so many things about the LDS Church that I still love...and believe.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Libs

[Storm Rider]

One of the most difficult trials of faith, IMO, occurs when a person attaches their faith in some way to a desired outcome.

That desired outcome might be something as trivial as finding something that was lost, preservation of wealth, preservation of a job, preservation of health, or preservation of the life of a loved one.

How have folks here dealt with the issue of "not attaching their faith in some way with a desired outcome?"

Good question. Living by faith is difficult; that should always be remembered. I am both a romantic and an idealist. Maturing in the Church and in the Gospel was challenging for me. I placed leaders are very high pedestals and all they could do was be toppled. Finding that they were just men who lost their tempers, acted less than perfect, or did not react perfect was hard. Studying Church history in depth did not affect my testimony much; I had already concluded that all leaders are just men trying to do their best most of the time.

How did I deal with it? First of all, I concluded that I was a student of truth. I honestlybelievee that I find the highest concentration of truth taught by the LDS Church. There is much to learn from other churches, but I remain a LDS. One of the things where I fail is that some teachings by the Church are such that I don't have a testimony of them. For example, the WofW is only a current policy of the Church. There has been no revelation to make it a requirement to enter the temple; it became a policy and remains so. I also tend to be veryguardedd should a leader of the Church start getting carried away in his talk. As a Church we fell for policies such as blacks and priesthood or Adam-God; that will never happen again. Regardless of who he is, Bishop, Stake President, Seventy, Apostle, or Prophet, I will not blindly accept what they say is true or is the Gospel without it being confirmed by the Holy Spirit.

In saying these things I realize that I may easily be standing on a weak foundation if the Spirit is not with me. Would that I could be completely trusting of Church leaders and the things they say, but since I am not I must live in such a way that I hear the Spirit speak and feel his guidance. Knowing that my feet are made of clay, that I am a sinner, I place my faith in the mercy and love of our Father in Heaven and seek his strength.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

One of the most difficult trials of faith, IMO, occurs when a person attaches their faith in some way to a desired outcome.

That desired outcome might be something as trivial as finding something that was lost, preservation of wealth, preservation of a job, preservation of health, or preservation of the life of a loved one.

How have folks here dealt with the issue of "not attaching their faith in some way with a desired outcome?"

I know it happens a lot when people are treated badly by those who they call brother and sister. We had a couple of converts turn in their recommends and vowed to never come back, as a result of how they were treated. They were converts, and serious “country folk”…they did not fit in (or so they believed) with our congregation. The “sister” was treated very badly. She was told she asked too many questions on more than one occasion. She overheard so very vicious gossip, (or comments) about herself. They were true to form and have never returned.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This was my experience. Loss of faith over things that I had a real problem, in dealing with, regarding church history.

As the saying goes (not sure who said it), “I have a testimony of the gospel, not church history”. What faith does not embellish?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

In the first place why would anyone do that, particularly when we say as GG pointed out "Thy will be done." Even Christ in Gethsemane said that.

Plus I think when you've been in the church long enough to see some pretty powerful responses to prayer and faith you can let go of those things where you may not have gotten what you thought you wanted or needed.

There is understanding this "Thy will be done" principle on an intellectual basis. And then there is actually having that faith tried and tested and struggling with understanding it on a personal experiential basis---and this personal experiential basis for understanding has many levels, some deeper than others.

Understanding such a principle as "faith" on an intellectual basis is far different than understanding it on an experiential level.

[wenglund]

This was my experience. Loss of faith over things that I had a real problem, in dealing with, regarding church history.

You aren't alone. And, your loss of faith is somewhat understandable. What I mean by this is, when speaking of loss of faith, what we are really talking about is a transfer of faith. The faith you may once have had in Christ and his restored gospel and the means he he has availed us for discerning "truth" (like Moroni 10, Alma 32, etc.) was somewhat transferred to yourself and your own personal ability to use church history to assess certain truth claims of the Church (like whether or not Joseph was a prophet of God). In other words, to some extent, you supplanted your faith in God with faith in man. And, while that is certainly your choice to make, the gospel doesn't work that way, and wont work so well for you in that way.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CV75]

How have folks here dealt with the issue of "not attaching their faith in some way with a desired outcome?"

By remembering what faith really is, and recognizing how true I am to the Lord; enhancing faith with hope and charity; humility to learn the hard lessons; gratitude to look back and realize how the Lord has watched over me all along, even when I didn't know Him; recognizing what the true desired outcome really is, which is part of bcoming what the Lord wants us to be.

[Nofear]

How have folks here dealt with the issue of "not attaching their faith in some way with a desired outcome?"

I have had some desired outcomes from Providence vary from my intent. Hindsight and experience has led me to adopt the following postulate: God always acts in such a way as to benefit me. That action may, however, be mitigated by what is to the benefit of others.

I do not believe that any amount of pleading, cajoling, bargaining, begging, promising, etc. has any direct impact on what the Lord will do -- he will always act to my good. Though, such actions may have an indirect impact in that they can change the conditions as to what benefits me. It should probably also be said that some activities may be beneficial in their own right mostly irrespective of what is being asked for.

With this postulate in place, it is rather easy for me to place my trust in God above and beyond my trust in my own desires.

[cinepro]

One of the most difficult trials of faith, IMO, occurs when a person attaches their faith in some way to a desired outcome.

That desired outcome might be something as trivial as finding something that was lost, preservation of wealth, preservation of a job, preservation of health, or preservation of the life of a loved one.

How have folks here dealt with the issue of "not attaching their faith in some way with a desired outcome?"

On my mission, we had two sayings:

Pray like everything depends on God, work like everything depends on you.

and

Trust in God, but always lock your bike.

The great thing about those sayings is that you can use them for the rest of your life, even if you become an atheist.

[zerinus]

One of the most difficult trials of faith, IMO, occurs when a person attaches their faith in some way to a desired outcome.

That desired outcome might be something as trivial as finding something that was lost, preservation of wealth, preservation of a job, preservation of health, or preservation of the life of a loved one.

How have folks here dealt with the issue of "not attaching their faith in some way with a desired outcome?"

If faith is properly centered in God, it will not be focused on the outcome.

[ERayR]

It all depends what you put your faith in. The only sure thing is the atonement of Jesus Christ all else is just things. If one puts their faith in the atonement then the rest will fall into place no matter what happens. This life is ours to live and God lets us live it and when we fail in some areas, as everyone invariably does, Christ has spread a safety net and it catches us and we learn what we need to work at.

[Libs]

You aren't alone. And, your loss of faith is somewhat understandable. What I mean by this is, when speaking of loss of faith, what we are really talking about is a transfer of faith. The faith you may once have had in Christ and his restored gospel and the means he he has availed us for discerning "truth" (like Moroni 10, Alma 32, etc.) was somewhat transferred to yourself and your own personal ability to use church history to assess certain truth claims of the Church (like whether or not Joseph was a prophet of God). In other words, to some extent, you supplanted your faith in God with faith in man. And, while that is certainly your choice to make, the gospel doesn't work that way, and wont work so well for you in that way.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes, I understand what you're saying. A true testimony comes from the Spirit, not from the "arm of flesh" (like questionable history, stories & out of context events, etc). Maybe, that's why I didn't lose my true testimony, which is of Christ. I lost faith in a church. Became unsure if that was His Church. I am not so unsure of that, now. I believe the "Body of Christ" is quite large and encompassing. I believe many (most?) LDS are Christians. I still believe a lot of the Book of Mormon was inspired (whether it's true history or not). Not sure I could ever go back to the church, but I do embrace what I can.

In reading this thread, I was wondering if there might not be two threads of thought going on here. Sometimes, I have known people to "bargain" with God, and even have their faith teetering on whatever answer they get from him. I have a very good friend (my visiting teacher, as a matter of fact), who came back to the church, about ten years ago, after a thirty year or more absence. She and her husband got into a terrible car accident, which almost took her husband's life. She prayed to God that, if He would allow him to live, she would go back to the church and do all that he asked. He did live and she did keep her word...but, I have always wondered what she would have done, if he hadn't lived. Would that have been the end of her faith? I have never asked her about that, but maybe I will, one day.

So, the question about whether or not certain "outcomes" can effect our faith, is one thing (like the example of my friend). On the other hand, you have people like myself, who were not really looking for any particular "outcome", but got blindsided by information that was previously unknown. Two different things, perhaps? Not sure.

[ERayR]

Yes, I understand what you're saying. A true testimony comes from the Spirit, not from the "arm of flesh" (like questionable history, stories & out of context events, etc). Maybe, that's why I didn't lose my true testimony, which is of Christ. I lost faith in a church. Became unsure if that was His Church. I am not so unsure of that, now. I believe the "Body of Christ" is quite large and encompassing. I believe many (most?) LDS are Christians. I still believe a lot of the Book of Mormon was inspired (whether it's true history or not). Not sure I could ever go back to the church, but I do embrace what I can.

I would like to ask a question and I am sincerely asking and not trying to be snarky.

The question is how can you accept/believe the Book of Mormon, in whole or in part, and not accept whence it came as the authoritative source?

I too think the "Body of Christ" is quite large and encompassing. As a LDS I accept that at the least the celestial and terrestial kingdoms are of the "Body of Christ".

[Ahab]

One of the most difficult trials of faith, IMO, occurs when a person attaches their faith in some way to a desired outcome.

That desired outcome might be something as trivial as finding something that was lost, preservation of wealth, preservation of a job, preservation of health, or preservation of the life of a loved one.

How have folks here dealt with the issue of "not attaching their faith in some way with a desired outcome?"

Can I answer your t hread title and the line under that while ignoring your OP? Please?

I believe "shaken faith syndrome" is the result of either giving in to peer pressure or not liking it when things don't go the way of the one who has faith before it is shaken.

... if by "faith" you're referring to an assurance from God.

Basically, God tells someone something and then someone else comes along and says that what God says is not true or that it wasn't God who said that, at which point the one who has their faith shaken gives in to peer pressure to abandon that faith or they just give in because they thought they would never have to have their faith challenged in some way by others.

Our goal should be to learn from God through Jesus Christ and remain his disciple... even if or when things get a little hairy.

If we can't do that, then we're not fit for his kingdom.

He does allow us to try, try, try again, though... but at some point we need to stick with it instead of being so wishy washy.

[ldsfaqs]

Shaken faith most often happens when a person learns something, or many things, and then rather than being patient in coming to understand and seeking out the necessary information which might further enlighten them in that thing, they begin to believe the new information as the actual truth, then believe they were deceived by the Church, and then become an anti-mormon.

They don't realize that there is more to the story which shows the actual truth. When a person for example first learns about the Priesthood ban, their Faith may be shaken. The wise person keeps learning in Faith to understand everything related to the issue, and to discover Gods Will in the matter, if it exists (which it does). Most unfortunately are not wise, and thus pre-judge the Church and it's leaders as racist, and that's just not something any reasonable person would belong to, if the Church was actually true, and so they leave and become enemy's of God and/or the Church.

[wenglund]

Maybe, that's why I didn't lose my true testimony, which is of Christ. I lost faith in a church.

Again, I think your lose of faith in the LDS Church was actually a shift of faith to your own church, comprised of your independent self.

This shift of faith is a logical consequence of your shift of faith from looking to Christ and the Spirit to discern the verity of certain truth claims, to looking to yourself and history to make that determination.

Rather than looking to God to tell you which church is his and who he desires to lead and guide you, you have, along with placing yourself above God in judging the things of God, you have evidently placed yourself above God by calling and anointing yourself as your own earthly leader. I wish you well with that.

Not sure I could ever go back to the church, but I do embrace what I can.

As long as you have greater faith in yourself than in God in matters of discernment and determining which church to belong to and who to lead and guide you, there is little reason or chance of you returning. Why would you?

In reading this thread, I was wondering if there might not be two threads of thought going on here. Sometimes, I have known people to "bargain" with God, and even have their faith teetering on whatever answer they get from him. I have a very good friend (my visiting teacher, as a matter of fact), who came back to the church, about ten years ago, after a thirty year or more absence. She and her husband got into a terrible car accident, which almost took her husband's life. She prayed to God that, if He would allow him to live, she would go back to the church and do all that he asked. He did live and she did keep her word...but, I have always wondered what she would have done, if he hadn't lived. Would that have been the end of her faith? I have never asked her about that, but maybe I will, one day.

I am not sure bartering with God is the best reason to return to the Church. It certainly fails to grasp the intent and purpose of the gospel, though some good may come of it. To me, the best reason to join the church or return to the restored gospel is if one desires to become like Christ, unto a fulness of joy and love as families, and has faith that the restored gospel is the best means for progressing towards that end, better than relying solely on oneself and better than relying on some other religion.

On the other hand, you have people like myself, who were not really looking for any particular "outcome", but got blindsided by information that was previously unknown. Two different things, perhaps? Not sure.

I believe that by not really looking for a particular outcome, is to look for outcome--stagnation. And, when someone lacks such direction and purpose, things that would otherwise be relatively inconsequential may seem monumental or blindsiding. Who knows?

Just some things to think about.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 29, 2011 by wenglund

[elguanteloko]

To ldsfaqs:

You know, I'm quite disturbed by your username since, to me, it makes it sound like you are the person who has (one would expect) good answers to "lds questions". This is a problem because of the answer you are giving here shows a lack of proper understanding into the objections by ex-believers such as myself in a fair way.

Now to what you actually said:

Shaken faith most often happens when a person learns something, or many things, and then rather than being patient in coming to understand and seeking out the necessary information which might further enlighten them in that thing, they begin to believe the new information as the actual truth, then believe they were deceived by the Church, and then become an anti-mormon.

First of all, you characterize ex-believers as intellectually lazy. That's quite a big brush to paint us with, I'm telling you.

Secondly, the whole point of doubt is "why should I have faith in it in the first place if it doesn't seem like being true?" In other words, why should I even "wait" for more information when at present (and making a fair intellectual effort) the best arguments point to the LDS Church not being correct? Most people I know who left the Church did so with more information in their hands than many of those who stay in it.

Thirdly, you swiftly assume ex-believers become "anti-mormons", a caricature that only serves to paint us in a dehumanizing manner. Do you think some of us may actually be sincere in our beliefs that the LDS Church is wrong and shouldn't be followed?

They don't realize that there is more to the story which shows the actual truth.

This goes against faith, so please spare us the power-talk.

When a person for example first learns about the Priesthood ban, their Faith may be shaken.

and rightly so.

The wise person keeps learning in Faith

The question is, why? Why keep learning in faith if, first of all, "there is more to the story which shows the actual truth [and that truth points in favor of the Church]"? If the "more to the story" part shows the truth to be favorable to the Church, why faith? Any reasonable third party should be able to look at the "more to the story" and determine the best explanation to be in favor of the Church so, why faith here? Secondly, you make your faith completely unfalsifiable since if you find something unfavorable you will still counsel someone to have faith. This method seems as far from objectivity as I can imagine.

[Libs]

I would like to ask a question and I am sincerely asking and not trying to be snarky.

The question is how can you accept/believe the Book of Mormon, in whole or in part, and not accept whence it came as the authoritative source?

I too think the "Body of Christ" is quite large and encompassing. As a LDS I accept that at the least the celestial and terrestial kingdoms are of the "Body of Christ".

That's good, about your belief in the Body of Christ.

And, no problem, about the question. It didn't sound snarky. I have had people ask me that, before. I don't think I have a very good answer. I had a testimony of the Book of Mormon that came from a real experience with it. That experience is what kept me in the church for about two years longer than I, probably, would have stayed, otherwise. I can accept that God, perhaps, used Joseph to bring this book about. But, I have doubts that a lot of other things Joseph did was inspired by God (like his polygamous relationships). I have entertained the possibility that he was a fallen prophet....but, I really don't know. I couldn't stay in the church and just pretend everything was okay, when it wasn't. Tried to go back a couple of years ago...it was very uncomfortable. (Not because of the people...I have good friends in the church)...all those issues that took me out were still bouncing around in my head. Plus, I really started believing in the conservative Protestant version of the Bible. I still attend a Protestant Church. It's not perfect (at all), but it's a good place, for now.

[Libs]

Again, I think your lose of faith in the LDS Church was actually a shift of faith to your own church, comprised of your independent self.

This shift of faith is a logical consequence of your shift of faith from looking to Christ and the Spirit to discern the verity of certain truth claims, to looking to yourself and history to make that determination.

I can certainly see why you might think that...and you might even be right, but it was not my intention to lean, only, on my own understanding. I still believed in God and Christ as my Savior, and I was reading the Bible in a very different way (without LDS footnotes). Church history started the questioning, but reading the Bible and leaning on a more direct interpretation, was also very influential. I realize, now, that all religions have their own interpretations, and the Bible speaks many things that can be interpreted in many different ways.

Rather than looking to God to tell you which church is his and who he desires to lead and guide you, you have, along with placing yourself above God in judging the things of God, you have evidently placed yourself above God by calling and anointing yourself as your own earthly leader. I wish you well with that.

As long as you have greater faith in yourself than in God in matters of discernment and determining which church to belong to and who to lead and guide you, there is little reason or chance of you returning. Why would you?

Certainly not my intention to place myself above God. I really don't think I have done that.

I am not sure bartering with God is the best reason to return to the Church. It certainly fails to grasp the intent and purpose of the gospel, though some good may come of it. To me, the best reason to join the church or return to the restored gospel is if one desires to become like Christ, unto a fulness of joy and love as families, and has faith that the restored gospel is the best means for progressing towards that end, better than relying solely on oneself and better than relying on some other religion.

Without that faith, it is not the best means. Without faith, it becomes meaningless (even if it is objectively true).

I believe that by not really looking for a particular outcome, is to look for outcome--stagnation. And, when someone lacks such direction and purpose, things that would otherwise be relatively inconsequential may seem monumental or blindsiding. Who knows?

My faith was not stagnate...really, it wasn't. I loved the church and everything about it. Never thought anything could shake my faith. If anything I was probably much too sure of myself.

Just some things to think about.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Appreciate the input. Thank you.