Second Civil War Starting In Chicago

[Avatar4321 3,746]

I was doing some browsing earlier online and I came across the followed alleged prophecy from Joseph Smith:

Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote – A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives.

This was a letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser on July 24, 1896:

“… My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the next great (U.S. civil) war after the war of the rebellion (the Civil War of the 1860′s between the North and the South) would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short and concise manner as possible.”

I keep trying to verify it or find some context but it seems like every site that is quoting this simply quoting another website that is quoting this. I cant find any more text or information concerning this. Has anyone heard of this? Can anyone verify it?

This thread isnt meant to degenerate into a discussion of politics. I know it might be easy concerning the topic of the prophecy but id really like to focus on finding the source of this whether its accurate or made up. I've never heard of it before tonight and i thought i was familiar with alot of this stuff.

[KevinG 4,421]

I'd want to see a verification of the original letter and even then it is a second hand report.

[BCSpace 959]

You might also want to try the autobiography of Mosiah Hancock. The link to his biography is in the short wiki article about him. Doesn't mention Chicago though:

The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe. I went and got my map for him. "Now", he said, "I will show you the travels of this people". He then showed our travels through Iowa, and said, "Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake! You will build cities to the North and to the South, and to the East and to the West; and you will become a great and wealthy people in that land. But, the United States will not receive you with the laws which God desires you to live, and you will have to go to where the Nephites lost their power. They worked in the United Order for 166 years, and the Saints have got to become proficient in the laws of God before they can meet the Lord Jesus Christ, or even the city of Enoch". He said we will not travel the shape of the horse shoe for there we will await the action of the government. Placing his finger on the map, I should think about where Snowflake, Arizona is situated, or it could have been Mexico, he said, "The government will not receive you with the laws that God designed you to live, and those who are desirous to live the laws of God will have to go South. You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and the worldly learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty. There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be called the Republican, and the other the Democrat party. These two parties will go to war and out of these two parties will spring another party which will be the Independent American Party. The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands until other nations will say, "Let's divide up the lands of the United States", then the people of the U. S. will unite and swear by the blood of their fore-fathers, that the land shall not be divided. Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the U. S. army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give up--when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American Army from defeat and ruin. And they will say, 'Brethren, we are glad you have come; give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God'. Then you will have friends, but you will save the country when it's liberty hangs by a hair, as it were".

I personally don't put much stock unverified "revelations"; those not published by the Church.

Edited July 14, 2011 by BCSpace

[frankenstein 160]

time to find someone with access to the archives, if LDS archives means the Official "vault" of the LDS Church. In looking up the quote there is some very disturbing stuff.

--------------

did you see this information on facebook?

from Austin Arcibald...

We can't, with 100% certainty, attribute this to Joseph Smith, the prophet and presidential candidate, but that is the claim: "My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the next great [u.S. civil] war after the war of the rebellion [the Civil War of the 1860's between the North and the South] would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short and concise manner as possible." (A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives, letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser, July 24, 1896.)

If true, wow.

It's also interesting that TIME recently asked this very question: Will the Federal Reserve Cause a Civil War?

Another quote from Joseph Smith on currency:

“I consider that it is not only prudential, but absolutely necessary to protect the inhabitants of this city from being imposed upon by a spurious currency...I think it much safer to go upon the hard money system altogether. I have examined the Constitution upon this subject and find my doubts removed” (Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 314).

In that same quote:

"Shall we be such fools as to be governed by its [the Illinois Legislature] laws, which are unconstitutional? No! We will make a law for gold and silver; and then the state law ceases and we can collect our debts. Powers not delegated to the states or reserved from the states are constitutional. The Constitution acknowledges that the people have all power not reserved to itself…This is the doctrine of the Constitution, so help me God. The Constitution provides to regulate bodies of men and not individuals" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 279).

---

Another JS reference to the next great trouble (bigger than the rebellion, or first civil war):

David Whitmer interview with Dr. Poulson, printed in the Deseret News on Friday, August 16, 1878:

Question: When will the temple be built in Independence?

Answer: Right after the great tribulation is over

Question: What do you mean by that?

Answer: A civil war more bloody and cruel than the rebellion. It will be the smashing up of this nation, about which time the second great work has to be done, a work like Joseph did, and the translation of the sealed plates and peace all over.

---

*More information on the Packards:

It seems A Milton Musser was appointed Assistant Church Historian in 1902. This letter was written in 1896. Noah Packard (and "another brother") apparently heard the Prophet talk about this 2nd civil war, its city of origin, and its fundamental cause. Noah told his brother Nephi. Their father was also named Noah Packard (whose father was also named Noah Packard). I found a journal entry written by Noah Packard (Nephi and Noah's father). It seems he was a good and faithful servant. Baptized by Parley in 1832, stayed faithful through the Kirtland years, preparatory anointing in Kirtland, 1st anointing, endowment, and sealing in 1845 in Nauvoo, then also received his 2nd anointing in 1845.

His son, Noah [the 3rd] Packard, was born in 1821. Noah the 3rd is the primary source of this prophecy. That means he was ~11 years old when his father was baptized, and ~23 years old when the Prophet was martyred. At least we don't discover he was like 5 years old when the prophet died - it helps to make his hearing of the prophecy more plausible - as we can sometimes find with these "I heard the Prophet say" type of statements. Nephi Packard (the primary source's brother and author of the letter to Musser) was born July 1832, so he was about one month old when his father was baptized and ~11 years old when the Prophet died.

If the letter was written in 1896, then Noah the 3rd would be ~75 years old (I assume he's dead by then?), and Nephi would be 64 years old. This helps to temper the criticism that 1896 is too late of a date for someone to mention "I heard the prophet say" - It was his brother who heard it, who was 11 years older than he was. Again, the timing of everything seems plausible. No gaping holes from what I can gather.

Here is some more information on Nephi Packard. Baptized at 8 in Nauvoo, age 14 at the exodus, moved to Hobble Creek (now Springville, UT), married at ~29, did some farming and mining, and was called as Bishop of Springville Ward in 1883 (age 51) and remained so until it split into 4 wards, in 1892. No mention of plural marriage (which wasn't uncommon). And the line that I like: "Mr. Packard is an amiable gentleman, of unusual intelligence, and a man of strict honesty and integrity." Unusual intelligence - so perhaps it was easy for him to remember the prophecy as his brother and "another brother" explained it to him. Strict honesty and integrity - we have no reason to doubt that he did not make this up.

More information on Noah Packard is a bit more difficult to find since he was named after his father and grandfather. I wish we had more detail on this "another brother" who told him that depreciation of the currency was the cause.

Edited July 14, 2011 by frankenstein

[Calm 31,598]

When was the latest that Chicago could have qualified as a "little town"?

census report starting in 1830: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-_v20ULwe_oJ:qrc.depaul.edu/Excel_Files/Chicago/ChicagoPopulation1830-2000.xls+population+of+chicago+in+1830&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

When is the reported date of the revelation?

Edited July 14, 2011 by calmoriah

[SeattleGrunge 49]

Here are some notes I have from trying to document it myself previously:

According to his diary, this prophecy was made the day after Joseph made his final speech to the Nauvoo Legion (Wednesday, June 19, 1844; eight days before his martyrdom). Around the turn of the century it appears that Mosiah's daughters prepared a 111-page typescript of a 49-page manuscript that was probably written in 1876. The last recorded event occurs in 1865.

1- The Republican Party originated in Ripon Wis. in early 1854 and was formalized on July 4, 1854 in Jackson, Michigan. The first national convention was held in Philadelphia, Pa., on June 17, 1856--Ten years after this prophecy was made, but 20 years before this was written down. The Republican party dominated congress with the election of Lincoln in 1860, 16 years before this was written down. This was also after the civil war (1861-65) between the Republicans of the North and the South which was represented by various parties.

2- The Democratic Party evolved in the early 1790s.

I originally thought the part of it talking about the saints going to SLC was a easy way to shoot it down, but found the following when researching that:

1-"I prophesied that the Saints would continue to suffer much affliction and would be driven to the Rocky Mountains, many would apostatize, others would be put to death by our persecutors or lose their lives in consequence of exposure or disease, and some of you will live to go and assist in making settlements and build cities and see the Saints become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains." (Documentary History of the Church 5:85)

2- “Other - Church News Article describing several references to Joseph prophesying of the Saints going to SLC,” an article from the Church News

[rameumptom 282]

Well, I just found out from my bishop's sister's husband's uncle's cousin's barber that the Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied that in the Millennium we will all eat fried Twinkies dipped in sugar and chocolate.

How's that for hearsay?

[Calm 31,598]

Here are some notes I have from trying to document it myself previously:

In 1844, Chicago was about the same size as Nauvoo which was around 12,000 people so it seems weird that he'd describe it as a "little town".

[blackstrap 668]

In the 1840 census Cincinnati had a population of over 46000,and was listed as a TOWN.New York had over 300,000.

[Calm 31,598]

In the 1840 census Cincinnati had a population of over 46000,and was listed as a TOWN.New York had over 300,000.

I can see town, but little especially since it was the same size as Nauvoo and IIRC the residents made a big thing about its own growth into a large population at the time.

[Avatar4321 3,746]

There are always prophecies like this, second hand accounts from years after the Prophet was murderered. It's a fascinating subject. I mean if there was a second Civil war prophecied of, wouldn't it be good to know? But these accounts are so unreliable. Especially when we cant get the primary sources of these second hand accounts. So frustrating.

This is the first time I've ever heard the reference to Chicago or devaluing of the currency as issues. I'm highly suspect that these "prophecies" are appearing now. But intriqued at the same time.

Dr Peterson, i know you have written some books on the end times. Have you ever come across these texts before?

[Nathair/|\ 677]

David Whitmer interview with Dr. Poulson, printed in the Deseret News on Friday, August 16, 1878:

So does that make our Dr. Larry Poulson a Time Lord?

[Mike Richards 12]

If it turns out to be true, how do you suppose critics will deal with it once it's fulfilled?

Also, how do you suppose civil war would go in the US these days? Certainly each state's militia (National Gaurd) could be directed by its governor, but what about the active duty folks? They've sworn to defend the constitution and generally don't reside in a state to whom they feel much loyalty. If the war really ends up being between the republicans and the democrats, I'm inclined to think, based on what I know of the active duty folks political leanings, the democrats would be at a distinct disadvantage.

Mike

[Nathair/|\ 677]

If it turns out to be true, how do you suppose critics will deal with it once it's fulfilled?

Also, how do you suppose civil war would go in the US these days? Certainly each state's militia (National Gaurd) could be directed by its governor, but what about the active duty folks? They've sworn to defend the constitution and generally don't reside in a state to whom they feel much loyalty. If the war really ends up being between the republicans and the democrats, I'm inclined to think, based on what I know of the active duty folks political leanings, the democrats would be at a distinct disadvantage.

Mike

If you are really interested in that sort of thing, check out Orson Scott Card's Empire and Hidden Empire. I think Brother Card does an excellent job of imagining what such a war might realistically look like five minutes into the future.

[Mike Richards 12]

If you are really interested in that sort of thing, check out Orson Scott Card's Empire and Hidden Empire. I think Brother Card does an excellent job of imagining what such a war might realistically look like five minutes into the future.

Cool--I'll check it out. Thanks!

[rameumptom 282]

IF there was a second Civil War beginning in Chicago, I don't think it would be over politics, but over mobocracy. Currently, there are over 100,000 gang members in Chicago. Also, the political parties, as they become more polarized, are descending into mob-think. A study of the French Revolution will give you an understanding of how that brought their nation into anarchy with much of the media egging it on.

Mobs versus the order of the Constitution would be the next Civil War.

[Sevenbak 511]

IF there was a second Civil War beginning in Chicago, I don't think it would be over politics, but over mobocracy. Currently, there are over 100,000 gang members in Chicago. Also, the political parties, as they become more polarized, are descending into mob-think. A study of the French Revolution will give you an understanding of how that brought their nation into anarchy with much of the media egging it on.

Mobs versus the order of the Constitution would be the next Civil War.

I agree. With that view in mind, heres' a few statements that are worth noting. I find the first one really interesting, as this prophecy by John Taylor was emphasized and "correlated" by Elder Neil A. Maxwell in the Ensign.

"...The Lord permitted his prophet, John Taylor, to elaborate on this last verse in 1879:

“Those who will not take up their sword to fight against their neighbor must needs flee to Zion for safety. And they will come, saying, we do not know anything of the principles of your religion, but we perceive that you are an honest community; you administer justice and righteousness, and we want to live with you and receive the protection of your laws, but as for your religion we will talk about that some other time. Will we protect such people? Yes, all honorable men. When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States, the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the programme, and as long as we do what is right and fear God he will help us and stand by us under all circumstances.” (Deseret News Weekly, 28 Jan. 1880, 28:818; see also D&C 45:68–69.)

Orson Hyde:

"The time is not very far distant in the future, when the Lord will lay his hand heavily upon that nation... That same God who gave the revelation to his servant Joseph Smith in regard to these matters, will fulfill every jot and tittle that has been spoken, concerning that nation. What then will be the condition of that people, when this great and terrible war shall come? It will be very different from the war between the North and the South. Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, town against town, country against country, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed, and manufacturing will, in a great measure, cease, for a time, among the American nation. Why? Because in these terrible wars, they will not be privileged to manufacture, there will be too much bloodshed — too much mobocracy — too much going around in bands and destroying and pillaging the land to suffer people to pursue any local vocation with any degree of safety. What will become of millions of the farmers upon the land? They will leave their farms and they will remain uncultivated, and they will flee before the ravaging armies from place to place; and thus they will go forth burning and pillaging the whole country; and that great and powerful nation, now consisting of some forty millions of people, will be wasted away, unless they repent. Now these are predictions you may record. You may let them sink down into your hearts. — JD 20:151.

Millennial Star:

This generation shall be visited by an overflowing scourge. Of the precise nature of it we are not informed. It shall pass over the nations night and day. The affect of this visitation will be so direful and calamitous that the reports of its terrible ravages will fill all people with vexation.... One of the horrors announced by the prophet upon that nation is now a matter of history the war of the Rebellion. Another and more appalling condition awaits that ill-fated people. It shall fall upon them like the visitation of a whirlwind, sweeping the country like a mighty flood. The populace will be divided into innumerable factions, and blood, carnage and woe will be rampant among them, filling the hearts of the more peacefully disposed with fear and dismay. Many will laugh at such a prediction, but, unless the people repent, it will come as surely as night follows day. Weakened and powerless from internal broils and disturbances, the nation will become a prey to the remnants left of the aboriginal inhabitants, who will be filled with vengeful rage at the wrongs that have been perpetrated upon them and furiously spread destruction in every direction. 13 Sept., 1880, p. 584-587.

D&C 45:

68And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

69And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.

[Avatar4321 3,746]

IF there was a second Civil War beginning in Chicago, I don't think it would be over politics, but over mobocracy. Currently, there are over 100,000 gang members in Chicago. Also, the political parties, as they become more polarized, are descending into mob-think. A study of the French Revolution will give you an understanding of how that brought their nation into anarchy with much of the media egging it on.

Mobs versus the order of the Constitution would be the next Civil War.

I think you have some good points here.