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Balzer

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Seemingly God can punish people in a variety of ways -- from h*** fire to making their car break down for not paying tithing.

My friend, does that really matter, considering that God knows what is best for us? If he knows that will be the easiest path for us, why complain?

"I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." God sees much more than us, thus, though the punishments may seem different here on Earth, if God has a reason, why should we complain?

Why he would "punish" someone by not letting them re-translate part of an ancient text is a mystery of Godliness I will never understand.

He also punished Joseph by not letting him translate for a while. But the missing section would be a reminder for Joseph in the future... the missing portion always missing... thus always there to show why it is important to obey God.

But, that still doesn't explain why God couldn't have struck the evil men dead (as I suggested) or handled it in a seemingly infinite number of ways besides doing what he did. I mean, the way that Mormons believe that God handled is seems inefficient and weak at best. But, to each their own.

Of course it doesn't =). I can't explain why God does the things he does... I know a few things... the things that are important for me to ask and pray about constantly... I know a few of those... to the degree he wants me to know... but this issue isn't important to me. If he wanted it done a way, in my opinion, the way he did it was right. This is the way he did it, thus, it is good enough for me.

Really?

Causing something to be written for an event several thousand years in the future... yes... that is definitely amazing =D.

To you as well. When do you leave on your mission, Tao?

Probably around next June or so, I think. College for a year first. =)

Best Wishes,

TAO

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Yes, since I was once a Mormon and no longer believe, I have somehow forgotten all of the teachings, practices, and doctrines of the church that I learned during the previous years of my life.

Funny how that works, huh?

I didn't write that or even imply it. I wrote that you got a good dose of urban myth along with your doctrines if you believe that the law of tithing is about your car breaking down and that God uses overt punishment as an effective tool of governing His church.

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What does this have to do at all with what my previous statement? I mean, I could answer it, but it's a bit like asking me, "Based on your understanding, what is the nature of gravity in Newton's Law of Physics?" It has an answer, and a definite one that I could explain to you if need be, but what does the answer have to do with the conversation at hand?

DaddyG was thinking that perhaps you don't know much about how LDS view their own doctrine... it seemed like in the past post, that you struggle a bit on the issue of what 'h***' really is for LDS... not like the Christian h*** at all.

But I may be wrong... but that is what it seemed to me.

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What does this have to do at all with what my previous statement? I mean, I could answer it, but it's a bit like asking me, "Based on your understanding, what is the nature of gravity in Newton's Law of Physics?" It has an answer, and a definite one that I could explain to you if need be, but what does the answer have to do with the conversation at hand?

My humorous quiz has a great deal to do with how God manages the church and His covenant people. You contended that our view of how the lost manuscript pages were handled by God was ineffecient and weak.

The point of my jibe was that God's handling of his children has more to do with saving their souls than efficient publishing of revelations or perfection in running His earthly kingdom. A lesson that LDS and non-LDS often forget.

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DaddyG was thinking that perhaps you don't know much about how LDS view their own doctrine... it seemed like in the past post, that you struggle a bit on the issue of what 'h***' really is for LDS... not like the Christian h*** at all.

But I may be wrong... but that is what it seemed to me.

Ah, but Mormons DO believe in the "Christian" (your distinction, not mine) version of h***. Isn't this where the SOPs end up, along with the devil and his angels?

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My humorous quiz has a great deal to do with how God manages the church and His covenant people. You contended that our view of how the lost manuscript pages were handled by God was ineffecient and weak.

The point of my jibe was that God's handling of his children has more to do with saving their souls than efficient publishing of revelations or perfection in running His earthly kingdom. A lesson that LDS and non-LDS often forget.

As I said, it seems inefficient and weak, at least to me.

But, if you believe that this was truly how God chose to handle the situation, there is really no effective way to refute that belief, other than to point out that it would also be highly consistent with the actions of a mountebank that was trying to cover his tracks on a ruse that had just exploded.

So ... yeah.

Edited by keith_brian

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Ah, but Mormons DO believe in the "Christian" (your distinction, not mine) version of h***. Isn't this where the SOPs end up, along with the devil and his angels?

Nah, that's Outer Darkness, and that's far worse than the Christian version of it.

Outer Darkness is light-less... it isn't burning... but freezing cold and dark.

It is a truly scary place =(.

Edited by TAO

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Nah, that's Outer Darkness, and that's far worse than the Christian version of it.

Outer Darkness is light-less... it isn't burning... but freezing cold and dark.

It is a truly scary place =(.

Uh ... really? So, freezing and being cut off from the love of God is better than being burned and having your body torn apart by demons?

Seems like 6's to me.

Although, I guess your original argument was that the Mormon version of God's punishment is actually WORSE than the "Christian" version of h*** (again, your terminology, not mine).

Seemingly, this worse version of h*** in Mormonism would not be a good thing to point out, since it would seem to speak to the greater cruelty of the Mormon god versus the Christian version. But, I am sure that somehow I am once again mistaken and that this in fact somehow testifies to the truthfulness of the Mormon church.

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Uh ... really? So, freezing and being cut off from the love of God is better than being burned and having your body torn apart by demons?

Seems like 6's to me.

Although, I guess your original argument was that the Mormon version of God's punishment is actually WORSE than the "Christian" version of h*** (again, your terminology, not mine).

Seemingly, this worse version of h*** in Mormonism would not be a good thing to point out, since it would seem to speak to the greater cruelty of the Mormon god versus the Christian version. But, I am sure that somehow I am once again mistaken and that this in fact somehow testifies to the truthfulness of the Mormon church.

How is the Mormon God cruel? Outer Darkness is only for those few who, with full knowledge, have chosen to separate themselves from God.

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How is the Mormon God cruel? Outer Darkness is only for those few who, with full knowledge, have chosen to separate themselves from God.

1/3 of the spirits from the pre-existence is a few in your estimation?

Huh.

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As I said, it seems inefficient and weak, at least to me.

But, if you believe that this was truly how God chose to handle the situation, there is really no effective way to refute that belief, other than to point out that it would also be highly consistent with the actions of a mountebank that was trying to cover his tracks on a ruse that had just exploded.

So ... yeah.

You missed the point. What do you believe would be more important to God, raising up a prophet or finding 116 pages of a manuscript?

God lets us err and repent. The sections of the D&C and church histories that relate these events have been used time and again to teach lessons on obedience and trust in God. I'd say God's purposes were more than served by allowing His children to err and repent.

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Seemingly, this worse version of h*** in Mormonism would not be a good thing to point out, since it would seem to speak to the greater cruelty of the Mormon god versus the Christian version. But, I am sure that somehow I am once again mistaken and that this in fact somehow testifies to the truthfulness of the Mormon church.

It does not testify that Mormonism is true, only that you clearly do not understand it. You continue to use the cartoon version of our beliefs -- similar to the cartoon version of heaven with everyone playing a harp and wearing a halo.

Attempting to compare h*** with outer darkness makes as much sense as comparing Harry Potter with Big Bird on Sesame Street.

I have already made a suggestion that you find out what we really believe, but you have chosen to ignore that reasonable request. You continue demonstrate your ignorance of our doctrines. This is really very tiring.

Why don't you ask us -- instead of telling us-- what we believe.

For example, a person who goes to the telestial kingdom goes there by their own choice. They can no more go to the celestial kingdom than an fish could build a rocket and fly to the moon. I realize that doctrine is incomprehensible to one who rejects the LDS concept of God and the Plan of Salvation. One who selects outer darkness has selected to remain in the presence of Satan for eternity preferring that to the presence of the Holy Ghost. It is your choice.

Edited by cdowis

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You missed the point. What do you believe would be more important to God, raising up a prophet or finding 116 pages of a manuscript?

God lets us err and repent. The sections of the D&C and church histories that relate these events have been used time and again to teach lessons on obedience and trust in God. I'd say God's purposes were more than served by allowing His children to err and repent.

Yeah, but why not find a way to let JS fail and repent WITHOUT having the whole debacle with the 116 pages, or why not have the results of it fall out in a way that DIDN'T make it look like JS was just a charlatan trying to cover his own mistakes? I mean, it just seems strange for an all powerful God to work that way.

But, by the same token, it seems strange for an all powerful God to flood the earth and cause mass extinction in such a way that no credible scientist can find any evidence for it. So, I guess if you believe the one, why not believe the other?

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It does not testify that Mormonism is true, only that you clearly do not understand it. You continue to use the cartoon version of our beliefs -- similar to the cartoon version of heaven with everyone playing a harp and wearing a halo.

Attempting to compare h*** with outer darkness makes as much sense as comparing Harry Potter with Big Bird on Sesame Street.

I have already made a suggestion that you find out what we really believe, but you have chosen to ignore that reasonable request. You continue demonstrate your ignorance of our doctrines. This is really very tiring.

Why don't you ask us -- instead of telling us-- what we believe.

Okay, I'll bite. So, what do Mormons believe about "h***"in your estimation (specifically the outer darkness spoken of in D&C 76)? How is your picture of this h*** different from the version I've presented or the version that the rest of Christianity believes in?

For example, a person who goes to the telestial kingdom goes there by their own choice.

Really? So, the final judgement has nothing to do with it? I mean, Jesus could say, "You are going to the Telestial kingdom" and they could say, "No way. I am going to be in the Celestial Kingdom with you." and they'd end up in the Celestial Kingdom?

That's different from how I learned Mormon doctrine growing up.

They can no more go to the celestial kingdom than an fish could build a rocket and fly to the moon.

I thought that you just said it was their choice which kingdom they go to. So, can they choose or not?

I realize that doctrine is incomprehensible to one who rejects the LDS concept of God and the Plan of Salvation.

Which parts of this am I not comprehending? I think that I've outlined the basic Mormon beliefs on the topic quite well.

One who selects outer darkness has selected to remain in the presence of Satan for eternity preferring that to the presence of the Holy Ghost. It is your choice.

So, you're back to saying that people choose where to go in the end, eh? So, answer me this: if people had a choice where to go (as you say they do) why on earth would someone choose to remain in outer darkness for all of eternity? I mean, given the choice between being happy and being tortured for all of eternity, I would think that most people would tend to choose being happy, even if they did choose to reject the ironically called "plan of happiness" in the preexistence and were consigned by God into an eternity of never ending torment. But, maybe Satan and his angels are masochists?

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1/3 of the spirits from the pre-existence is a few in your estimation?

Obviously the reference to the few in Outer Darkness is about those who kept their first estate, not to those who failed.

Even so, your "question" is an example of faulty reading (irrespective of how many people read it the same potentially erroneous way). Revelation does not say that 1/3 of the stars were swept down by the dragon's tail, it says "the third part" (and it's the same in the Greek). This means that there are two other parts (or perhaps more, that "the third part" could easily be one of an even longer series). There is nothing in the text, either, that requires that the three parts be of (even roughly) equal size.

So it may very well be that there are "few" in Outer Darkness, although I'd assume (stated up front) that the absolute number is more than trivial.

Furthermore, and importantly, each and every one of them will be happier there than they could be anywhere else. As Milton had his character Satan say, for them, it is better to reign [sic] in he11 than serve in heaven. They all chose their station.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers

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why not find a way to let JS fail and repent WITHOUT having the whole debacle with the 116 pages, or why not have the results of it fall out in a way that DIDN'T make it look like JS was just a charlatan trying to cover his own mistakes?

There are people who need an excuse for their apostasy or failure to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Any excuse will do, and this one is available.

Lehi

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del

moved to another thread.

Edited by cdowis

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I would suggest that the recent posts about where people will spend eternity are off topic.

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