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Bill "Papa" Lee

Joseph’S Civil War Prophecy, Can Some Of The Pundit’S Help…

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Here is my reading from my website of the entire Prophecy on War (I prefer calling it the Prophecy on Slavery, as you will understand from how I read it).

http://rameumptom.weebly.com/dc87.html

D&C 87: The Prophecy on War

Joseph Smith's Prophecy on War (D&C 87) is a big thorn in the side of those critics of the Mormon Prophet. Some claim that 'everyone knew that the North and South were going to war, so it wasn't that big of a prophecy.' However, the evidence is against that statement. Elder Orson Hyde supplemented that prophecy in 1858, claiming the destructions and wars were about to come upon the U.S.

When he made these claims, many eastern newspapers quoted him, mocking him. There was no way the States were going to war, according to the papers. In 1862, Elder Hyde commented on this fact as further evidence that the American people did not consider this prophecy valid prior to its accomplishment.

Secondly, we shall see that the Prophecy of War goes well beyond the Civil War/War between the States, and down to our own day.

War Among the States and Among All Nations

It starts by prophecying of the Civil War, a war that will be the beginning point for all great wars . We read in D&C 87:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.Here we see that the Civil War is the beginning of wars to be poured out "on all nations." The Civil War was a great turning point in warfare. With it came modern warfare, which opened the way for wars of mass destruction to be commonplace and widespread. Also, this was the first war where new weapons of destruction were used: repeating rifles, gatling guns, iron ships, etc. All this added up to tens of thousands being killed in a single battle.

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.Here we see the South, during the Civil War, calling upon other nations for assistance, and "they" or Great Britain and other nations shall "also call upon other nations" for assistance in their defense. Imagine a nation like Great Britain, which at the time ruled the oceans and had a formidable army having to call upon other nations for assistance! And yet it happened in both the First and Second World Wars, which is exactly the time when war was "poured out upon all nations."The Fall of Communism

Now this next portion is very interesting. Many think it refers to the Civil War, but it doesn't. In terms of time, it refers to a time after the wars on all nations:

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

The only "slaves" in the days since the World Wars, have been those who have suffered under the bonds of Communism and racism. Isn't it interesting to see how quickly the shackles of slavery have fallen off of the slaves of the former Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, and among the blacks in South Africa, and to an extent, even in the United States. However, since their "masters" are marshaled and disciplined for war, there are few primary choices, except Communism where this has occurred.The Terrorist Connection

This is to the point where I see we are at in this prophecy. There is more to come, as well:

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.At one time I thought the remnant refered to is the literal House of Israel, and particularly the Lamanites (Native Americans). It may be that a portion of this part of the prophecy will still be fulfilled by them.Now, however I feel it is the remnant of the slaves in the world that this refers to. Tyrannical dictators of Muslim nations have kept their peoples in poverty and slavery. They have stayed in power by turning the anger of the peoples against the Jews and the West. We are now feeling the pain of the remnant of Arab and Muslim slaves in the world, as they continue attacking and vexing the Gentile nations. Interestingly, the tactics they are using are very similar to the terrorist attacks used by the Gadianton Robbers in the Book of Mormon (Books of Helaman and 3 Nephi), not long prior to the First Coming of Christ in glory to the Nephites, prior to their long period of peace (akin to the Millennial era we pray for today).

Great Destructions to Come

Anyway, to continue with the prophecy:

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.Obviously, when the remnant of the slaves vex the Gentiles, we shall see great destruction and bloodshed begin. So, the times for great destruction may not be too far away.Stand In Holy Places

8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

The "holy places" mentioned above are Zion and her stakes. People will flock to the "holy places" as places of refuge and safety. Not all will be Latter-day Saints, but all that are willing to keep the 10 Commandments, and perhaps a few other laws of righteousness will be welcome to dwell in safety, while the wicked suffer through the great destructions of the last days prior to the Second Coming of the Lord.Once again, an amazing prophecy of Joseph Smith's come forth as true.

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The only "slaves" in the days since the World Wars, have been those who have suffered under the bonds of Communism and racism. Isn't it interesting to see how quickly the shackles of slavery have fallen off of the slaves of the former Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, and among the blacks in South Africa, and to an extent, even in the United States. However, since their "masters" are marshaled and disciplined for war, there are few primary choices, except Communism where this has occurred.The Terrorist Connection

S-----t-----r-----e-----t-----c-----h

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The only "slaves" in the days since the World Wars, have been those who have suffered under the bonds of Communism and racism.

To wit, for some enlightenment

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I just removed some more insulting and personal comments. Come on folks- you know better!

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I just removed some more insulting and personal comments. Come on folks- you know better!

If I may, I will seek to re-focus this discussion. What are the reasons for or against Joseph being a Prophet in the case of D&C 87, or just well informed?

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If I may, I will seek to re-focus this discussion. What are the reasons for or against Joseph being a Prophet in the case of D&C 87, or just well informed?

Here is what I have said in the past:

First, you should familiarize yourself with the environment in which this prophecy was made. Specifically, Joseph Smith made his prediction in 1832 right as the Nullification Crisis was occupying the national mind. What’s that? You aren’t familiar with the “Nullification Crisis” of 1832? Here is some background.

Nullification Crisis

Nullification Crisis

Nullification Crisis

Then consider other subsequent parts of the prophecy:

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain,…

The Southern States call upon Great Britain

A possible hit for Joseph?

…as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

Ummm…no. That didn’t happen.

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

Ummm…no. That didn’t happen

“The recruitment of black men, including many freed slaves, into the Union Army after the Emancipation Proclamation was approved: towards the end of the war, the Confederacy relented, and began to allow Blacks to enter the Confederate Army, but this action was only a token effort. ”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

More here…

History of Slave Rebellions

(Notice the Turner rebellion in 1831, with no notable rebellions during the Civil War)

More on Slave Rebellions…

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

Who are the “remnants”? Who are the “Gentiles”? When did these remnants “marshal themselves” and “vex” the “Gentiles”?

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

Honestly, by any reasonable measure, things are drastically better all over the world since the Civil War.

And “end of all nations”….? It probably sounded foreboding in 1832, with the second coming just around the corner and all that, but 172 years later, most nations seem to be doing just fine, with little worry of “ending” any time soon.

So if I have to spell it out for you, let’s go through verse by verse and see how many specific claims Section 87 (the Prophecy on the Civil War) contains, and how many are “hits”:

1.VERILY, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

The nullification crisis of 1832 (just months before this revelation was given) provides ample context for this prophecy. Also, the term “shortly” is certainly debatable. But we can call it a “hit”.

1/1 (Hits/Claims)

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

The American Civil War did not “pour out war upon all nations”. Not even Britain and France got really involved.

The open recognition, the active aid, the material and financial support which the South needed so greatly were never forthcoming. Europe refused to take a hand in America’s quarrel. North and South were left to fight it out between themselves.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/europeandcivilwar.htm

That’s a miss.

1/2

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States,

-and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called,

-and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations;

-and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

Yup. Yup. Nope. Nope.

3/5

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

Nope.

3/6

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves,

-and shall become exceedingly angry,

-and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

3/9

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn;

-and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

This is pretty dramatic stuff, but “all nations” seem to be doing fine, by and large. We’ll just say he’s 0/2, and not break down each prophecy in the verse.

3/11

7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.

I have no idea what he meant by this, so if you can explain it, it could be a “hit”.

8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

The “day of the Lord” hasn’t come yet. I’m gonna say that “170+ years” does not equal “quickly”, and call this a miss. You can stretch “quickly” as long as you like and call it a hit, but that’s more of a stretch than I could make and still keep a straight face.

3/12

So of the 12+ distinct portions of the prophecy contained in Section 87, Joseph Smith only got 3 right, and even that involves a stretch of the word “shortly”, and ignoring the contemporary Nullification Crisis as a probable “inspiration”.

In short, the “Civil War” prophecy would be the prophetic equivalent of (current LDS Prophet) President Monson seeing a weather forecast for a hurricane in Florida, and prophesying that a hurricane was going to soon wipe all of Flordia into the ocean. Then the hurricane dies out, and nothing happens. 30 years later, a small monsoon hits Florida, and causes a little damage. Church members point to President Monson’s prophecy as being fulfilled, conveniently ignoring the part about Florida being wiped into the ocean.

Personally, I’m only impressed with prophets that bat better than .500.

Edited by cinepro

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The problem with Joseph's prophecies, is that there are too many that say it was just a lucky guess, or that the events in his day made such a "prophecy" easy to make up.

One FAIR member once stated that he visited Sandra Tanner at her Lighthouse Ministries' bookstore. In the discussion, he asked her if archaeologists were to find an ancient road sign in Mesoamerica saying "25 miles to Zarahemla", would she then believe. She paused and then said it would be a "point of discussion."

Nothing satisfies the naysayers. First they said there were no geographical locations from the BoM that had been found. Then within the last 20 years Nahom, the Arabian Bountiful, and possibly the Valley of Lemuel were found. Did any of this phase them? Of course not.

My web piece on the D&C 87 War prophecy was initially written in the early 1990s, and then updated about a decade ago. I haven't touched it since. However, I'm even more convinced regarding my comments of slavery. Only I would better clarify and expand the concept of slavery from communism and racism to include the enslavement of Arab and Muslim peoples in many nations, as well as those under other dictatorships, etc.

Of course, it is sad that instead of dealing with the discussion and asking me to clarify what I wrote a decade ago, the majority of the comments sneered disgustingly. It is very sad when moderators have to remove postings because some choose to malign, rather than discuss.

And so the Prophecy on War will never convince anyone. It can strengthen a testimony that is already there, or perhaps help open the eyes of one who is willing to open them. But it can do no more than that.

The day will come when those who reject modern prophets will have to stand before the bar of God and explain themselves. I only hope they show up on a day when God feels very merciful....

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Here is what I have said in the past:

Then consider other subsequent parts of the prophecy:

The Southern States call upon Great Britain

A possible hit for Joseph?

Ummm…no. That didn’t happen....

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States,

-and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called,

-and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations;

-and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

Yup. Yup. Nope. Nope.

3/5

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

Nope.

3/6

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves,

-and shall become exceedingly angry,

-and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

3/9

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn;

-and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

This is pretty dramatic stuff, but “all nations” seem to be doing fine, by and large. We’ll just say he’s 0/2, and not break down each prophecy in the verse.

3/11

Actually this is a sign that you are miscontruing the revelation. When it explains that "they" shall call upon other nations, it isn't speaking of the Southern States, but of Great Britain, which the prophecy had just spoken of. For it is when Great Britain calls upon assistance of other nations that war would fall upon all nations in WWI and WWII.

I won't bother with your other comments, because they are also rather misconstrued.

BTW, yes the nullification also occurred at the time of the 1832 prophecy. However, by the 1850s, people were mocking the revelation. Orson Hyde spoke up and said it was yet to happen, and it did just a couple years after his statements. Between 1832 and 1860, many things occurred that cooled down the hotheads of 1832. There was no reason to believe that the Civil War prophecy would yet occur. But it did come to pass, and it did start in South Carolina, almost 30 years later, when again, the issues had cooled down for several years.

Again, the Southern States asked Britain for help, and later Britain (the "they") would in turn ask other nations for help, in which time the world wars would occur.

Then "after many days" the slaves would rise up against their masters who are disciplined for war. This isn't the southern masters, but after the world wars. This speaks of the Soviet collapse, where the people arose against the rulers of the Empire. You can't just do a simple reading and think you are reading it correctly. You are missing key signs, such as "after many days", etc. Definitely not showing critical analysis of the text of any sort.

After the Soviet collapse, comes the "remnant" of slaves who would become angry and vex the Gentile nations. Guess what? If Arabs/Muslims haven't vexed us Gentile nations for at least 10 years, and if they are not enslaved to their rulers, then Joseph Smith was wrong. But he wasn't.

With Arab Spring and the Great global recession, we may see a destabilization of nations on an unprecedented scale. This is especially true in Europe and USA, if we cannot get our economies going quickly again, or if people protest over massive spending cuts, etc. (as they are doing in Greece and France). We have had unprecedented numbers of major earthquakes in the last few years, which seem to be on the increase. Last I saw, there are numerous wars ongoing in the Middle East, North Africa, and elsewhere, and with destabilization comes the possibility of more wars in the future. With Pakistan becoming less stable, fears are now over a possible war between them and India. And we have a new war with drug lords on our own southern border.

So, you're basically flat wrong on how you understand the revelation. Even if you disagree with my thoughts on the Soviets and Arab slaves uprising, it is easy to see that you misinterpreted greatly the part on the World Wars and Great Britain asking other nations for help. It is also easy to see that you misread the later verses as pointing to the Civil War, instead of periods AFTER the world wars.

If you are going to discuss history, please discuss the whole context and not just minute points taken out of context of the whole.

Edited by rameumptom

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My web piece on the D&C 87 War prophecy was initially written in the early 1990s, and then updated about a decade ago. I haven't touched it since. However, I'm even more convinced regarding my comments of slavery. Only I would better clarify and expand the concept of slavery from communism and racism to include the enslavement of Arab and Muslim peoples in many nations, as well as those under other dictatorships, etc.

So your theory is that Joseph wasn't referring to the black slaves in the American South (over which people had been arguing for several hundred years), but instead the prophecy was foretelling people being "enslaved" by a oppressive mutation of a political system that wouldn't rise to power for another 90 years?

You've also cast the net so wide that, if we are to include all people who live under oppressive or unjust governments as "slaves", then we must also include people in history who have also "risen up" and thrown off the chains of their leaders. So, at the point the prophecy was given in 1832, Joseph wouldn't have been "prophesying" of anything but instead describing a historical cycle that had been going on for thousands of years and would no doubt continue.

Redefining a prophecy into irrelevance doesn't make it less false.

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Actually this is a sign that you are miscontruing the revelation. When it explains that "they" shall call upon other nations, it isn't speaking of the Southern States, but of Great Britain, which the prophecy had just spoken of. For it is when Great Britain calls upon assistance of other nations that war would fall upon all nations in WWI and WWII.

Obviously, my post is only explaining the way I read the prophecy, including the words "they", "then", "all", "soon" and so on. I encourage everyone to offer their own opinions on what might be referred to, all the better for people to judge the validity of the prophecy.

I'm not sure how you're reading this though. We agree that the Southern States "called upon Great Britain". What are you saying that Great Britain then did that is somehow related to the prophecy?

BTW, yes the nullification also occurred at the time of the 1832 prophecy. However, by the 1850s, people were mocking the revelation. Orson Hyde spoke up and said it was yet to happen, and it did just a couple years after his statements. Between 1832 and 1860, many things occurred that cooled down the hotheads of 1832. There was no reason to believe that the Civil War prophecy would yet occur. But it did come to pass, and it did start in South Carolina, almost 30 years later, when again, the issues had cooled down for several years.

I agree. That's why the prophecy that the war would start in South Carolina is a "hit". If it hadn't, it would be a miss.

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Here is what I have said in the past:

First, you should familiarize yourself with the environment in which this prophecy was made. Specifically, Joseph Smith made his prediction in 1832 right as the Nullification Crisis was occupying the national mind. What’s that? You aren’t familiar with the “Nullification Crisis” of 1832? Here is some background.

Do you just assume this or do you know I am not? Either is bold and condescending. Insult duly noted.

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Do you just assume this or do you know I am not? Either is bold and condescending. Insult duly noted.

Everything after "Here is what I've said in the past" is from a blog post I wrote based on a post from this forum years ago. The "you" is to the readers in general, not "you" specifically.

Edited by cinepro

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Everything after "Here is what I've said in the past" is from a blog post I wrote based on a post from this forum years ago. The "you" is to the readers in general, not "you" specifically.

Sorry but you comment followed my post first. I used to be a big Civil War buff, so I am aware. Thank you for clarifying. When adopted into the Lee family, I read many books on Robert E Lee, I have also read many arguments on why “Joseph” is not a Prophet because everyone knew what was coming. Which few in that day were well read.

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