Baptism

[inquiringmind]

I once asked if only baptized LDS could become sons of perdition, and I recently read this in 2 Nephi 31:14.

But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

I would now like to ask if it's possible (according to LDS doctrine) to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost without being baptized by someone who hols the keys of the priesthood (by what you would call a sectarian priest or minister)?

Also, what is the baptism of fire?

Edited June 30, 2011 by inquiringmind

[TAO]

Not sure. I suppose it depends on their knowledge. I think that if they had that much... but no, I'm not sure.

[cdowis]

To answer your question: one must be a temple endowed member of the church to have the sure knowledge mentioned by Christ.

Baptized in water and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by one holding authority.

Someone who has not been baptized can temporarily receive the Holy Spirit, such as receiving the witness of the Book of Mormon, or other inspiration but that is not sufficient for this sure knowledge.

Edited July 1, 2011 by cdowis

[altersteve]

As far as I understand, baptism of fire is the baptism of (being filled with) the Holy Spirit, and not necessarily receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. But I could be wrong.

[inquiringmind]

To answer your question: one must be a temple endowed member of the church to have the sure knowledge mentioned by Christ.

Baptized in water and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by one holding authority.

Someone who has not been baptized can temporarily receive the Holy Spirit, such as receiving the witness of the Book of Mormon, or other inspiration but that is not sufficient for this sure knowledge.

Thank you (and you altersteve.)

Edited July 1, 2011 by inquiringmind

[ldsfaqs]

Baptism by Fire is the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost by one in authority.

The requirement indicated in Nephi is indeed the requirement.

However, that is the requirement in that particular context for a member of the Church.

It is still possible that the requirements for a non-member might be slightly different.

For example, a "sure knowledge" and then denying it which is the requirement for being a Son of Perdition, can in fact still by had by a non-member.

A non-member can still see God, Christ, Angels, etc. This would constitute meeting the required level knowledge.

After all, we know that non-members will still convert in the spirit-world, will be judged, and will be able to go to the Celestial Kingdom if they are worthy.

Thus, it stands to reason that a non-member can also meet the requirements for becoming a son of perdition.

Now, is there a specific scripture on this, I cannot say off hand, though likely not. But, I do believe the general requirement that the scriptures mention applies to anyone, not simply members.

Hope that better answered your question.

[thesometimesaint]

ldsfaqs:

Of course we will all be judged by what we do with what we know, but I also believe that the intents of our hearts plays a big role in that judgement. SoP by the act of their own will(intents of their hearts) do not ever have the intent to be saved.

[inquiringmind]

To answer your question: one must be a temple endowed member of the church to have the sure knowledge mentioned by Christ.

Do you know of any references to back that up?

Someone else wrote:

Baptism by Fire is the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost by one in authority.

The requirement indicated in Nephi is indeed the requirement.

However, that is the requirement in that particular context for a member of the Church.

It is still possible that the requirements for a non-member might be slightly different.

For example, a "sure knowledge" and then denying it which is the requirement for being a Son of Perdition, can in fact still by had by a non-member.

A non-member can still see God, Christ, Angels, etc. This would constitute meeting the required level knowledge.

After all, we know that non-members will still convert in the spirit-world, will be judged, and will be able to go to the Celestial Kingdom if they are worthy.

Thus, it stands to reason that a non-member can also meet the requirements for becoming a son of perdition.

Now, is there a specific scripture on this, I cannot say off hand, though likely not. But, I do believe the general requirement that the scriptures mention applies to anyone, not simply members.

Hope that better answered your question.

Does this stand to reason?

(And didn't JS say (in the King Follet Sermon, I think) that a man couldn't become an SOP unless he did so in the flesh?)

Edited July 1, 2011 by inquiringmind

[CV75]

I once asked if only baptized LDS could become sons of perdition, and I recently read this in 2 Nephi 31:14.

But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

I would now like to ask if it's possible (according to LDS doctrine) to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost without being baptized by someone who hols the keys of the priesthood (by what you would call a sectarian priest or minister)?

Also, what is the baptism of fire?

The term “baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost” refers to the spiritually cleansing benefit one receives by having the Gift of the Holy Ghost and by receiving he Holy Ghost. Getting the gift is an ordinance; receiving the Holy Ghost is a decision; baptism by fire and with the Holy Ghost can refer to either of these or the actual sanctifying process and experience, which can occur gradually or suddenly.

Only those with priesthood authority can bestow the Gift of the Holy Ghost upon a person who has been baptized in water by proper authority.

3 Ne. 9: 20 shows how people can be baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost without the evident laying on of hands, but perhaps they received the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost sometime in their lives beforehand, but never lived worthy of its benefits, and so not until only in a sufficiently faithful, repentant, converted condition actually got to the point of receiving the Holy Ghost and experiencing being baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost. But of course God can maneuver the delivery of His gifts and benefits any way He chooses in such extenuating circumstances.

RE: Nephi 31:14, I think there is a lot of necessary advancement beyond the relatively preliminary steps of 1) baptism of water, 2) fire and the Holy Ghost, and 3) exercising advanced spiritual gifts, and then denying Christ to the point of absolute perdition.

[mfbukowski]

One cannot become a son of perdition without knowing with total certainty that Jesus is the Christ and then deny it.

It is said that it would be like staring at the noon day sun and yet having enough willfulness to deny it's existence.

One cannot achieve that level of certainty without being endowed, at a very miniumum, and quite a bit more. It has been suggested that one would have to have seen the face of Christ and yet deny his reality.

The baptism of fire is being confirmed and being given the gift of the Holy Ghost. One must have the Melchizadek Priesthood to perform the ordinance properly. Anyone without the MP could not perform the ordinance with proper authority.

Don't have time to look up references, but you will see I am right.