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To truly know the Savior, is to know Joseph Smith and vis versa.

For Joseph Smith saw and talked with the Lord, face to face. He was called to be His prophet and to speak for Him and to establish His Church. Those who reject Joseph Smith as a prophet and the Lord's work in His Kingdom (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) reminds me of these verses.

Matthew 7:20-23

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I can't think of anything that could be worse than to know that in this life, rejected the Lord's servants and then be told to "depart" in the after-life.

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Different churches (or groups of people) have different beliefs or doctrines. Yes I agree. And Christ can and does reach people despite the many differences among people groups. The emphasis of the LDS on theirs being the only true "restored" church is evidence against them. Christ came to save the lost, not to build temples to impress men.

So using your logic the Mormons would rank high on church size. Shall we test that. Here is a list of the 100 largest churches in America.

http://www.sermoncentral.com/articleb.asp?article=Top-100-Largest-Churches

Please examine the list and find the Mormon churches. I could not find one. One church holds over 43,500 people. Do you have any idea what that church cost? I do, 27 million dollars. The cost of the Salt Lake Temple 3.5 million.

I am not impressed by your claims that turn out to be false. I found some youtube videos that described church wealth but they were so agenda driven I could not post them.

So what about the church being restored? Luther wanted to restore the Pauline doctrine of justification. Calvin wanted discipline restored. Both wanted faith over works. And the churches named after them, are they today following the teachings of Luther and Calvin? In a word, no. So you could see the LDS church as the restored church after a bunch of attempts to restore the church did not take. It took God's intervention to make it work. Man's attempts although noble were not successful.

Edited by Franktalk
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Every follower of Christ has the same authority of God.

Please see "Why is the priesthood so important to God" thread by Rivers

especially the post by Lehi to see why this train of thought fails.

The problem is this. Who determines what qualifies a person as a follower of Christ? Anybody who reads the Bible with an opinion on the matter? A majority of the same? Or does Christ Himself get to make that determination. And if it is He, what method does He institute to ensure that His criteria are in reality met? And what method does He use to make that determination clear to the rest of us?

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Different churches (or groups of people) have different beliefs or doctrines. Yes I agree. And Christ can and does reach people despite the many differences among people groups. The emphasis of the LDS on theirs being the only true "restored" church is evidence against them.

I am sure God loves all people, including those of other faiths and religions (including non-Christians); and will do the best He can for them. But he established one true Church, not many; and He ordained salvation through that one Church only. When that Church went into apostasy it need to be restored, and that restoration took place through Joseph Smith. If you reject that one true Church that He has restored, you cannot be saved.

Christ came to save the lost, not to build temples to impress men.

I think you are confusing us with Evangelicals with their “mega churches” which cost millions of dollars to build, and are there to impress people and make money for their owners.

Interesting, but not compelling to me.

I think it is very compelling.

And there in lies the crux of the issue for you. Joseph Smith. Thus is the focus of the LSD church.

For me it's Christ and him crucified.

I don’t believe you. If Jesus was so important to you, you would have taken His words seriously:

Matthew 10
:

40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Luke 10
:

16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

John 13
:

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Every follower of Christ has the same authority of God.

Wrong on every account:

Hebrews 5
:

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

Cool. I guess I will just continue to bask in the wonder and power of God. Since I don't believe in a powerless Christ, but one that is powerful enough to guard his teachings from apostates.

If you genuinely believed that, you should be a Catholic. Why aren’t you?

The Power of God is manifest in the restoration of His true Church in the last days; as He has done throughout the history of the world. If you were a true believer in Christ, you would rejoice at the restoration of His true Church in the last days, and would want to be a part of it; not try to oppose it.

Edited by zerinus
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Refreshing to see a pro Joseph Smith topic even though I am sure the thread will turn to an easy cheap shot bashing of the man that the faithless despise.

As a critic, it's good to see a pro JS topic. It still comes down to a testimony of whether he is a prophet or not for me but that's why I like a book like RSR. Members can read it and still be able to maintain their testimonies while critics can read it and strengthen their nonbelief. At least it's a starting point for believers and nonbelievers.

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Those who cannot understand why Joseph Smith is "so important" or why he is an essential part of our faith is Christ does not understand the authority of God or His revelations to His prophets. Just saying "low here is Christ" does not make one a true disciple of Jesus Christ, does not make one a Saint (member of the Church of Jesus Christ) what makes it "real" is the power of God. The way I know Joseph is a prophet of Jesus Christ and not a false prophet (like David Koresh) is in his testimony, the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price... all are his testimonies. Just as the New Testament are the testimonies of Peter, James, John, and Paul and all the other apostles so the latter-day scriptures are testimonies of Christ to an unbelieving world. It shows to me that God is not a deaf-mute but that He actually speaks to His children if they have the faith to hear Him. Nowhere did Joseph say I am Christ or listen to me alone... the First Vision gave wittness to God's declaration: "This is my beloved Son hear Him!" He was speaking of Christ. Joseph was a prophet like Moses and He received revelation from Christ. We baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, we bless and partake of the sacrament in rememberance of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who reject Joseph Smith as a prophet, reject Jesus Christ's servants. They may rationalize that they can have a relationship with Christ without the ordinances of the Priesthood restored to Joseph Smith, but they are mistaken, they will never enter the presence of the Father without those ordiances.

The Holy Ghost can lead all men to the truth, that is how I KNOW Joseph Smith Jr. was a prophet and seer... because of his visions and revelations I know that Jesus is the Christ and that salvation is in Christ and no one else.

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To truly know the Savior, is to know Joseph Smith and vis versa.

For Joseph Smith saw and talked with the Lord, face to face. He was called to be His prophet and to speak for Him and to establish His Church. Those who reject Joseph Smith as a prophet and the Lord's work in His Kingdom (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) reminds me of these verses.

I can't think of anything that could be worse than to know that in this life, rejected the Lord's servants and then be told to "depart" in the after-life.

Joseph Smith claimed to talk with the lord face to face. I talk with the lord everyday and read his word, and the words that JS wrote down don't ring true to me.

So using your logic the Mormons would rank high on church size. Shall we test that. Here is a list of the 100 largest churches in America.

http://www.sermoncentral.com/articleb.asp?article=Top-100-Largest-Churches

Please examine the list and find the Mormon churches. I could not find one. One church holds over 43,500 people. Do you have any idea what that church cost? I do, 27 million dollars. The cost of the Salt Lake Temple 3.5 million.

I am not impressed by your claims that turn out to be false. I found some youtube videos that described church wealth but they were so agenda driven I could not post them.

So what about the church being restored? Luther wanted to restore the Pauline doctrine of justification. Calvin wanted discipline restored. Both wanted faith over works. And the churches named after them, are they today following the teachings of Luther and Calvin? In a word, no. So you could see the LDS church as the restored church after a bunch of attempts to restore the church did not take. It took God's intervention to make it work. Man's attempts although noble were not successful.

Never said church size was to impress people, building Temples with Marble, that's what I'm referring to.

Luther didn't want to restore the church in the way that JS claims to have. He was reforming back to what was written, not making up new doctrines that aren't in the Bible. Quite a difference.

Please see "Why is the priesthood so important to God" thread by Rivers

especially the post by Lehi to see why this train of thought fails.

The problem is this. Who determines what qualifies a person as a follower of Christ? Anybody who reads the Bible with an opinion on the matter? A majority of the same? Or does Christ Himself get to make that determination. And if it is He, what method does He institute to ensure that His criteria are in reality met? And what method does He use to make that determination clear to the rest of us?

Christ alone determines who is his. Not any organization on earth.

Who are his? Those who follow his teaching and walk in the Spirit.

Hughes:

First we don't build Temple to impress men. We build the to serve our Lord and our God.

Jesus and the Apostles went into the Temple regularly.

Jesus and the Apostles didn't say to build temples. If Temples were only to serve, then they could just as easily be built out of wood.

CFR That without Joseph Smith the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints would not exist.

Who came up with the religion? Who produced the BoM? D&C?

Those who cannot understand why Joseph Smith is "so important" or why he is an essential part of our faith is Christ does not understand the authority of God or His revelations to His prophets. Just saying "low here is Christ" does not make one a true disciple of Jesus Christ, does not make one a Saint (member of the Church of Jesus Christ) what makes it "real" is the power of God. The way I know Joseph is a prophet of Jesus Christ and not a false prophet (like David Koresh) is in his testimony, the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price... all are his testimonies. Just as the New Testament are the testimonies of Peter, James, John, and Paul and all the other apostles so the latter-day scriptures are testimonies of Christ to an unbelieving world. It shows to me that God is not a deaf-mute but that He actually speaks to His children if they have the faith to hear Him. Nowhere did Joseph say I am Christ or listen to me alone... the First Vision gave wittness to God's declaration: "This is my beloved Son hear Him!" He was speaking of Christ. Joseph was a prophet like Moses and He received revelation from Christ. We baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, we bless and partake of the sacrament in rememberance of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who reject Joseph Smith as a prophet, reject Jesus Christ's servants. They may rationalize that they can have a relationship with Christ without the ordinances of the Priesthood restored to Joseph Smith, but they are mistaken, they will never enter the presence of the Father without those ordiances.

The Holy Ghost can lead all men to the truth, that is how I KNOW Joseph Smith Jr. was a prophet and seer... because of his visions and revelations I know that Jesus is the Christ and that salvation is in Christ and no one else.

And via the Holy Spirit I know it's not true.

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The first is the amount of new doctrine and scripture he gave us. And when saying “new” I mean it in the sense that it had not been taught for centuries, though clearly its evidence can be seen in the Old and New Testaments if one knows what to look for. D&C 67 tells us:

No matter how many times people try to discredit Joseph, they cannot discredit in my eyes the doctrine and scripture he gave us. If he is not a prophet then the scripture and doctrine he gave us cannot be true, and yet it so conforms with what we already have in the Bible and clarifies and expands it and makes so much sense in the big picture that I can’t reconcile the new scriptures with the man whom the critics represent as some reprehensible con man.

The second point is the fact that despite the great persecution and almost extermination of the early saints, the Church has continued to grow and not only grow but prosper throughout the world. Because of it many nations of the earth are blessed just by having Priesthood and temples on their soil and many who have suffered have benefited greatly from the humanitarian efforts of the church.

The early saints made a great and beautiful city out of the mosquito infested swampland. They made the desert in the Utah valley blossom and prosper. Whatever they have touched through their industry and their faith they made beautiful. If by their fruits ye shall know them then the fruits of the church Joseph Smith established are evidence of its truth.

I would also point out that the doctrinal points are probably more impressive to believers in Joseph Smith, meaning that many of them require a certain interpretation of the Bible for support, and those that don't believe in him might see Joseph's doctrines as contradicting the scriptures rather than being supported by them. So, as an LDS I agree with you, but I'm not surprised when people in other religions aren't quite as impressed.

And any discussion of the Church's success after Joseph's death should probably mention Brigham Young. Upon Joseph's death, there wasn't anything necessarily built-in to the system that would guarantee its success (other than it being the true Church of Jesus Christ, rolling forward like a stone cut without hands down a mountain etc.), and who knows what the Church would look like today without Brigham Young? So it's reasonable to argue that God raised up Brigham Young for that purpose, but the uncertainty over the succession and future of the Church felt after Joseph's death doesn't indicate that he had well-planned the future of the Church before he left.

In other words, if David Koresh had a Brigham Young among his surviving followers, who knows how the Branch Davidians would be doing today?

And lastly, David Koresh led an apostate off-shoot from the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Instead of comparing Joseph Smith to him, it might be a little more respectful to the SDA's (and real Branch Davidians) to compare him to Ellen White. Certainly, the criteria can still be heavily slanted towards Joseph Smith, but at least it's someone in the same general universe of religious leadership.

Edited by cinepro
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Luther didn't want to restore the church in the way that JS claims to have. He was reforming back to what was written, not making up new doctrines that aren't in the Bible. Quite a difference.

LOL!!!

What do you think the doctrine of "the priesthood of all believers" is? It is a FABRICATION of Luther and is not found in the Bible.

LOL!!

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As a critic, it's good to see a pro JS topic. It still comes down to a testimony of whether he is a prophet or not for me but that's why I like a book like RSR. Members can read it and still be able to maintain their testimonies while critics can read it and strengthen their nonbelief. At least it's a starting point for believers and nonbelievers.

I agree. What is the book RSR?

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Joseph Smith claimed to talk with the lord face to face. I talk with the lord everyday and read his word, and the words that JS wrote down don't ring true to me.

Impossible for an honest truth seeker who has faith in the Lord to not receive an answer that the Book of Mormon is true.

Edited by bookofmormontruth
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And there in lies the crux of the issue for you. Joseph Smith. Thus is the focus of the LSD church.

You have a right to express an opinion, Hughes, but in doing so, you ought not utter falsehoods. It's a violation of the ninth commandment, the one that forbids bearing false witness. If you reverence Christ as you say you do, you will try to obey his commandments.

For Latter-day Saints, Christ is the focus of their faith and their Church. They honor Joseph Smith as a servant of Christ, just as they honor Moses, Abraham and other ancient prophets and Peter, James and John and others of the apostles.

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Impossible for an honest truth seeker who has faith in the Lord to not receive an answer that the Book of Mormon is true.

That's a definite dialogue killer POV isn't it? Of course it was a marriage killer for me as well since I didn't convert. All one can do is to follow the Lord to the best of their abilities.

RSR = Rough Stone Rolling. A book I fully enjoyed even though I couldn't get my LDS wife to read it so we could discuss her faith better. In her opinion, I did everything right I just didn't pray hard enough.....whatever.

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Who came up with the religion? Who produced the BoM? D&C?

Jesus Christ did. Joesph Smith just answered his calling. Someone else would have been chosen to fulfill the work of restoring the Church if Joeseph Smith chose not to answer the call.

Do you think if Moses was unworthy or chose not to answer his calling the Lord would have just left those Israelites in Egypt?

You haven't answered my CFR.

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Rough Stone Rolling. Unless I missed what you were asking.

Any opinions on the book?

From what I read from the comment sections on Amazon, I found this gem of a post and additional comments from this poster in defense of Joseph Smith by those who responded to his post. Love to see how people out of our faith come in defense of truth and of men who were honorable and valiant despite what the world and critics claim.

"I would like to start the review admitting I am not a Mormon. I love biographies of great people in history. I read "No man knows my History" by Fawn Brodie. I came on that book by accident. And I realize from some of the reviews on Amazon that Mormons dont like that book much. I thought it was great, but admit that she paints Joseph Smith in a negative light sometimes. But I could still see through enough to see a great man behind her attacks on his character.

"Rough Stone Rolling" is the exact opposite of that book. Richard Bushman uses a lot of the same stories but doesnt have the same negative slant. But he still shows that Joseph Smith was not perfect, which I admire. This is the best biography I have ever read.

This book takes you all through Joseph Smith's life. From a farmboy in New York who got on his knees and asked God to show him the way, to the man who was gunned down in Carthage a martyr for his calling.

If he was a Prophet or not is up for debate. As a Christian I believe that God is real and God can still speak today. Before I read the history of Joseph Smith if someone asked me if he was a prophet, I would have said no. After reading up on the man I would answer that it is not out of the realm of possibility. I believe he believed he was a prophet. I believe that some unexplainable things happened around him and the early Church.

The question was he a great man or not has been settled in my mind at least. I think he was a great man. To be tared and feathered and beaten, and still preach that next morning. To take persecutions and imprisionment in stride, to never compromise what you believe even in the face of death. These things are the very definition of a great man. The fact he put people off sometimes because he played with children and liked to wrestle and have fun. I think it just shows a genuine human being. His great love for his people caused many of his mistakes in life. Like the idea of everybody having everything in common, and his business dealings. Everything he did was with his people in mind. He not only talked the talk but walked the walk. I encourage everyone to read this book. If for nothing else than read a well written, entertaining biography of a real person that is more interesting than fiction. Good day" My link

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That's a definite dialogue killer POV isn't it? Of course it was a marriage killer for me as well since I didn't convert. All one can do is to follow the Lord to the best of their abilities.

RSR = Rough Stone Rolling. A book I fully enjoyed even though I couldn't get my LDS wife to read it so we could discuss her faith better. In her opinion, I did everything right I just didn't pray hard enough.....whatever.

Yes, it is a dialogue killer, I agree. But I believe it isn't debatable because they are the words and promises of the Lord.

Sorry to hear of your marriage.

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Any opinions on the book?

From what I read from the comment sections on Amazon, I found this gem of a post and additional comments from this poster in defense of Joseph Smith by those who responded to his post. Love to see how people out of our faith come in defense of truth and of men who were honorable and valiant despite what the world and critics claim.

That's what's great about the book that it at least addresses the issues that critics have that they feel members tend to dodge. In the end, critics will not necessarily be convinced but members won't necessarily lose their testimony. The bottom-line is that honest conversation can start.

IMO, it still comes down to having a testimony of the church. I have a testimony of my own church in following Christ that's a simple 'jump of a creek' in accepting the more difficult things of my faith. Unfortunately, Mormonism is more like a 'jump of the Grand Canyon' of faith in following Christ. Trust me. My faith has 2000 years of skeletons to deal with.

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I got about 1/3rd of the way through RSR when a friend borrowed it, read it, and returned it about 9 months later. Since then it's been sitting on my night stand and I haven't touched it. :)

I don't know how to offer a review. It was extremely informative, but I think that the author did a great job of outlining the why's and the what's that exactly as blueadept describes, a believer such as myself could come away from the book with a more firm belief in Joseph's prophetic calling while a non-believer could walk away from it feeling all the more convinced that Joseph Smith was not a prophet.

It answered several questions I had, satisfying a very strong curiosity itch. It was good background information. I felt I had a better understanding of the nature of the criticisms against Joseph Smith. My whole thing with criticisms and critical claims/assertions against the Church, the Gospel, and such is that the better I can understand the criticism, the real criticism and not just the crap it's usually wrapped in, the better I can improve my understanding of it all and discern truth from error.

I firmly believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

Edited by Mars
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but the uncertainty over the succession and future of the Church felt after Joseph's death doesn't indicate that he had well-planned the future of the Church before he left.

I disagree. In fact Truman Madsen speaks of several meetings between BY and JS in which Joseph was preparing Brigham to lead the saints west and pretty much told him he would be in charge. The last Grand (or Great, I can't remember how he referred to it) Council with leaders of the church before Joseph's death spoke of all the things that needed to be done. The reason BY was able to move forward so quickly was because he and Joseph had already planned for the trek west.

I think Brigham Young is also another logical evidence to me of the Lord's hand in the church because you are right in that he was essential in moving the church forward. It is an indication of the Lord putting the right person in the right place at the right time, something that was evident throughout the Prophet's life. I don't need a spiritual "feeling" to recognize that.

As far as the doctrine, I suppose one reason it rings so true to me is because it answered the questions I as a 14 year old had. The doctrine moves me because it is so detailed and yet makes sense of all the confusion engendered by the Christian world.

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