Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

jskains

Lehi'S Genetics

Recommended Posts

I see a lot of assumptions of what Lehi's genetics looked like. What is being used to define his genetic makeup and background?

JMS

Share this post


Link to post
I see a lot of assumptions of what Lehi's genetics looked like. What is being used to define his genetic makeup and background?

The keyword here is "assumptions".

There is nothing, as far as I can tell, that would, even remotely, establish what Lehi's genome would look like. Further, a close look at 1 Nephi shows that Lehi may have been a polygynist, and his seed (through Jacob and Joseph) may very well not have been like that of Nephi, Laman, etc.

It may also have been that, like the "indigenous" peoples they met in the Promised Land, Nephi did not mention the converts they made along the way from among the peoples where Lehi chose his (assumed) other wife. If so, the "Nephites" (and maybe even the Lamanites) had men among them who were not Lehites at all. Zoram was not, at the very least.

Yes the second wife, the converts, they're all speculation with little (or nothing in the case of the converts) in the text to support the ideas. However, they are logical positions.

Lehi

Share this post


Link to post

And there was Zoram. Some have suggested that he may not have been an Israelite.

He was a servant, and could have come from one of the neighboring countries.

Share this post


Link to post

It just seems like we have a bit of a Deep Thought problem here. We asked a very basic question and got the answer of 42. In other words, we made assumptions on what markers we would find without really asking the question of Lehi's actual DNA and if his background could be absolute.

JMS

Share this post


Link to post

It seems to me that in large measure whenever they are trying to determine the origins of a people using genetic research, or trying to establish the immigration patterns of past populations, they are filling their analysis with assumptions. It seems to be, at this point, a "this is the best we got so we will run with it and see where it leads us" approach on this. In some cases, though, particular ones, I could be wrong.

Anyway, as far as not being able to find a link between Native Americans and ancient Israelites, it seems like the case is quite murky, from a critical standpoint. As you suggest, determining the genetic makeup of Lehi and company seems wrought with problems beginning with "we dont' know". I really have a bit of an interest to learn more about this, but its hard. There is tons on genetics out there, but little answering this particular question.

Share this post


Link to post
We do know what macking "Assumptions" does. ;)

I'm not sure what "macking" anything does. I can't recall macking in all my life.

Lehi

Share this post


Link to post

The keyword here is "assumptions".

There is nothing, as far as I can tell, that would, even remotely, establish what Lehi's genome would look like. Further, a close look at 1 Nephi shows that Lehi may have been a polygynist, and his seed (through Jacob and Joseph) may very well not have been like that of Nephi, Laman, etc.

It may also have been that, like the "indigenous" peoples they met in the Promised Land, Nephi did not mention the converts they made along the way from among the peoples where Lehi chose his (assumed) other wife. If so, the "Nephites" (and maybe even the Lamanites) had men among them who were not Lehites at all. Zoram was not, at the very least.

Yes the second wife, the converts, they're all speculation with little (or nothing in the case of the converts) in the text to support the ideas. However, they are logical positions.

Lehi

If you read and know the BOM then you will know Lehi is and was from Manasseh, which makes him the seed of Joseph. There were not indigenous people here before Lehi either. There were only 3 groups of people brought to the New World by the Lord. The Jaradites, Mulekites, and Lehi's group. Once Israel rejected the gospel then the Gentiles were permitted to invade the New World or the promise land given to Israel. No Asians came across the ice bridge to the New World.

Share this post


Link to post
If you read and know the BOM ...

Oh, that's the secret. I thought all I had to do was juggle it along with the Bible and a copy of National Geographic.

For the sarcastically impaired: this was sarcasm.

... then you will know Lehi is and was from Manasseh, which makes him the seed of Joseph.

I had no idea!! Lehi was of Manasseh?!?! Who'd ever a thunk it?!?!

There were not indigenous people here before Lehi either. There were only 3 groups of people brought to the New World by the Lord. The Jaradites, Mulekites, and Lehi's group. Once Israel rejected the gospel then the Gentiles were permitted to invade the New World or the promise land given to Israel. No Asians came across the ice bridge to the New World.

Methinks I smell the leavings of a Gospel Hobby Horse hereabouts.

Lehi

Share this post


Link to post

I see a lot of assumptions of what Lehi's genetics looked like. What is being used to define his genetic makeup and background?

JMS

Perhaps DNA could be used to show common ancestry, whatever the exact makeup of the original ancestor.

Or maybe not.

Share this post


Link to post

I see a lot of assumptions of what Lehi's genetics looked like. What is being used to define his genetic makeup and background?

JMS

I dunno, but if you combine it with the complete genetics of a frog you end up with dinosaurs running around eating people.

Share this post


Link to post

I dunno, but if you combine it with the complete genetics of a frog you end up with dinosaurs running around eating people.

So, maybe 42 is the correct answer. But I have always been partial to 35.

But, to get back somewhat on target, being that Lehi was of the lineage of Joseph, and being that we have no known DNA from any of the tribes of the Northern Kingdom, that leaves us with nothing to look for.

The Mulekites, on the other hand, were at least partly Jewish and were more numerous than the Nephites. But just how many were Jewish is open to conjecture because we do not know how many were in the original Mulekite party, nor do we know the makeup of that party, so we are still working from a paucity of data. The bottom line is not just "We (LDS) don't know", but "No one knows."

Glenn

Share this post


Link to post

But didn't the Nephites die out completely?

I mean that's what it says, isn't it?

Share this post


Link to post

But didn't the Nephites die out completely?

I mean that's what it says, isn't it?

Jacob 1:12 12 And it came to pass that Nephi died. 13 Now the people which were not Lamanites were Nephites; nevertheless, they were called Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites, Zoramites, Lamanites, Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites. 14 But I, Jacob, shall not hereafter distinguish them by these names, but I shall call them Laminates that seek to destroy the people of Nephi, and those who are friendly to Nephi I shall call Nephites, or the people of Nephi, according to the reigns of the kings.

So by the time of the death of Nephi, the Lamanites and Nephites were indistinguishable as separate "peoples". Jacob says he will arbitrarily call the "good guys" "Nephites" and the "bad guys" Lamanites.

Then eventually all the Nephites die out- you know- that final battle and all that- Mormon is the last, and dies.

So who's going to leave Lehi's genetics behind, even if we knew what to look for?

Just going by what it says- something wrong with that?

Share this post


Link to post

I'm not sure what "macking" anything does. I can't recall macking in all my life.

Lehi

It's a British expression for "putting on a raincoat". You know, like "Mack macked".

What'sa matta you??

;)

Share this post


Link to post

It's a British expression for "putting on a raincoat". You know, like "Mack macked".

What'sa matta you??

Sorry, I've never worn a "mack", either, but my Jacquie, born a Canadian, still uses the term once in a while. 'Course, she pronounces "shone" as "shawn", too, so I don't pay much attention to all the stuff from Canadia.

Lehi

Share this post


Link to post

I see a lot of assumptions of what Lehi's genetics looked like. What is being used to define his genetic makeup and background?

JMS

I'm sorry I didn't see your topic before creating a new one. Here is what I said.

Many of you may have heard Book of Mormon scholars say that we don't know what Lehi's DNA looked like and this is quite true. By King David's time, his kingdom had a fairly cosmopolitan population. For example, Bathsheba's husband was a Hittite. By 600 BC the Israelite gene pool probably included the following Y-chromosome lineages.

J - The most common Y lineage in modern Jews about 40%. This Y lineage is very common throughout the Middle East.

E1b1b - The second most common Y lineage in modern Jews; also common thoughout the Middle East.

R1a - Present in most Jewish populations; most common in Eastern Europe but also present in the Near East.

Q1a3b - Present in 15% of Yemenite Jews and not yet detected in any non-Jewish group. Because many Yemenite Jews migrated to Yemen in 629 BC or earlier, it seems probable that this lineage was present in the Israelite gene pool when Lehi left Jerusalem.

Q1b - Present in 5% of Ashkenazi Jews. (Behar) and (Shen 2004)

Q* - Present in 5% of Iraqi Jews (Shen 2004) Although I list this as Q*, the fact is that Shen did not test for M346 or other mutations that would have more accurately identified the particular strain of Q in Iraqi Jews. Since Yemenite Jews are probably close relatives of Iraqi Jews, there is a distinct possibility that Iraqi Jewish Q wil be Q1a3a. We have to wait till research gets around to testing for the M346 mutation in this group.

As research progresses, new strains of many Y-lineages are discovered. For example, very recent research turned up a new Native American lineage that researchers named Q1a3a4 and a new European lineage they dubbed Q1a3a3. Yes, as the names indicate they are very closely related. As yet I don't know of any research that has tested for the M323 mutation in American Indians. So it is possible that some of Native American now thought to be Q1a3a will be discovered to be Q1a3b. The point is that there are going to be new discoveries and probably some surprises ahead.

Share this post


Link to post

I see a lot of assumptions of what Lehi's genetics looked like. What is being used to define his genetic makeup and background?

JMS

Theory 1

Suppose Lehi had a Y-chromosome belonging to haplogroup J. Few American Indians belong to this Y haplogroup. Nevertheless it is possible for Lehi's Y to have been haplogroup J and also for most Native Americans to be descendants of Lehi. Here is how.

Using an observed mutation rate of 21 per 10,000 (Weber & Wong) and a generation length of 27 years, most Native Americans are descended from a single male ancestor who lived about 150 BC. (Underhill 1996) This guy's Y lineage was Q1a3a1 which scientists believe to be at least 10,000 years old. However, all Q1a3a1 patrilineages seem to have become extinct except the one leading back to this guy who lived in 150 BC. Why? One possible answer is that they inherited resistance to European (and Near Eastern) diseases from one of their ancestors. If this guy in 150 BC had a maternal grandfather who was a direct descendant of Lehi he would not have inherited the J Y-chromosome, but he might have inherited resistance to European disease. He would then be able to pass this resistance on to his descendants allowing them to survive when so many other American Indians died. Since most American Indians descend from this guy, his ancestors are also their ancestors.

Share this post


Link to post

Oh, that's the secret. I thought all I had to do was juggle it along with the Bible and a copy of National Geographic.

For the sarcastically impaired: this was sarcasm.

I had no idea!! Lehi was of Manasseh?!?! Who'd ever a thunk it?!?!

Methinks I smell the leavings of a Gospel Hobby Horse hereabouts.

Lehi

So there is you answer! Lehi was from the tribe of Manasseh which makes him the seed of Joseph. Joseph in Egypt saw Lehi's branch in vision. He wasn't a Gentiles, Lehi was from the chosen seed Israel. Adopted Gentiles on this board do not understand this concept. This is why they keep questioning Lehi's DNA. It's in the BOM.

Share this post


Link to post

That's failproof science. It's important to understand that Native Americans are principally Jewish descendants. This is because the debate about genetics all centers around sex chromosones, and not mitochondrial or autosomal DNA. Thus the whole issue is resolved, for the learning of the Lord is > the learning of 60 years of geneticists research and those who actually know what they're talking about. The important thing is to listen to FARMS over smithsonian, and to listen to high school graduates that run FAIR over archaeological, scientific, and physics equations from the past several hundred years.

Remember, the haplogroups for the Y chromosome are the entirety of this debate. Thus Native Americans came from Lehi who was a Jew, as the introduction page to the Book of Mormon tells us. How grateful I am for modern day prophets and those who defend our faith.

Share this post


Link to post

DNA testing is man's wisdom to explain away things they don't understand. God's ways are not man's ways and man's ways are not God's ways.

Share this post


Link to post

That's failproof science. It's important to understand that Native Americans are principally Jewish descendants. This is because the debate about genetics all centers around sex chromosones, and not mitochondrial or autosomal DNA. Thus the whole issue is resolved, for the learning of the Lord is > the learning of 60 years of geneticists research and those who actually know what they're talking about. The important thing is to listen to FARMS over smithsonian, and to listen to high school graduates that run FAIR over archaeological, scientific, and physics equations from the past several hundred years.

Remember, the haplogroups for the Y chromosome are the entirety of this debate. Thus Native Americans came from Lehi who was a Jew, as the introduction page to the Book of Mormon tells us. How grateful I am for modern day prophets and those who defend our faith.

huh. Is this an attempt at sarcasim?

I will have to clear up a few things for the edification of other posters.

1. There is plenty of commonality between the autosomal DNA of American Indians and modern Jews. That's why Larry David, a Jewish comedian, has "Native American" genetic markers. This is quite common for Jews and other people of Eastern Meditteranean origin.

2. Only about 9% of American Indians in the US have Y-chromosomes that are unambiguously East Asian. (Hammer 2005)

3. Another 27% have Y-chromosomes with a mutation (M3) that is unique to American Indains. (Hammer 2005)

4. The rest; 64%, have Y-chromosomes that are found in the Middle East. At most half of this 64% is post-Columbian admixture.

5. Only the MtDNA of American Indians is predominently East Asian; haplogroups A, B, C, D, and X2a, with X2a being the sole Near Eastern haplogroup.

6. So far X2a has not been found in the Old World. Many scientists have concluded that it is extinct. Then again, it could turn up any day.

I should add that most scientists accept the fact that the first Americans were "racially mixed"; that is to say they included dolicephalic people who resembled modern Europeans and brachicephalic people who resembled modern East Asians. (Kenewick Man)

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...