3 replies to this topic

[David T]

Many questions concerning the justice of God come down to their context in metaphors that have been used to express the relationship of God to us in the scriptures.

God is presented as a Warrior King, and we are counseled to view ourselves as his Loyal slaves (slave is often translated as 'servant' in KJV).
God is presented as a Potter, and we are presented as clay, which can be rebuilt, crushed, and remade.
God is presented as a Loyal Husband, and we are counseled to be his Loyal Bride
God is presented as an Ideal Father, and we are counseled to view ourselves as His Children.

In the context of the metaphor of God being a King, I understand the concept of Justice, and the right for him to everlastingly condemn his subjects for minor infractions of the Law. That's what kings do. Kings have the right to Kingship generally inherently, and their Word is Law. What is viewed as injustice by the people is made Justice because it is the Decree of the King.

However, this doesn't work with the metaphor of family relationships.

Should a husband view his wife as a slave? The New Testament counsel is against the husband divorcing, or casting off his wife, with adultery being an exception - but even then, not recommended. The Old Testament example of Christ as Husband with Israel as Cheating Spouse is that the Husband was always willing for the Spouse to Come Back, and kept inviting her back. The rejection had to be fully and completely by the Bride, not the Bridegroom.

Should a Father view his children as slaves? The prodigal Son is welcomed back into the Father's house - after leaving of his own free will, and suffering the consequences - with rejoicing, not with a whip and chains.

Can one accept the metaphors of Family and still accept the Metaphor of Kingly Dominion, or a Potter who can at will tear us down and build us back up as something completely different? Is it possibly the King/Slave Metaphor is outdated, and we've moved past the cultural usefulness of it, and that it may actually hinder our full understanding of God's love?

For LDS, I think it is significant that the current prophetic priority is on understanding our relationship as being Familial - that this is the Revelation of God we are presenting to the world as Familial, while others focus on presenting God as Sovereign King and Creator. I think this is very significant.

Edited by nackhadlow, 10 June 2011 - 02:57 PM.

[Vance]

Rob Bowman, on 10 June 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

Um, I already gave biblical support for my statements. For example, I wrote that "God is merciful toward those to whom he chooses to be merciful (Exod. 33:19; Rom. 9:15, 18)." If God chooses to be merciful to some and not others, then your position is false.

Ex 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
. . .
  18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rob Bowman, on 10 June 2011 - 01:11 PM, said:

If you require the Bible to agree with your sense of justice and reason in order to accept it, then you are making yourself the authority.

I find this humorous, Bowman is requiring the Bible to agree with Bowman's "sense of justice and reason in order to accept it".

Apparently Bowman's "sense of justice and reason" is to find support for Bowman's condemnation to hell of Billions of people who died in ignorance by denying to them God's mercy, thus making Bowman "the authority" rather than God in the dispensing of God's mercy.

It is rather clear that God is much more merciful than Bowman.

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
  37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Neh 9:31 Nevertheless for thy great mercies’ sake thou didst not utterly consume them, nor forsake them; for thou art a gracious and merciful God.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
  30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
  31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
  32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
  14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
  15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
  16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Edited by Vance, 10 June 2011 - 03:18 PM.

[Log]

nackhadlow, on 10 June 2011 - 02:40 PM, said:

For LDS, I think it is significant that the current prophetic priority is on understanding our relationship as being Familial - that this is the Revelation of God we are presenting to the world as Familial, while others focus on presenting God as Sovereign King and Creator. I think this is very significant.

I don't find it significant.  It is my belief that our current presentation is in consequence of our emasculated western culture.

[DH]

Well, our relationship to God can be described any number of ways, depending on what you want to emphasize. "Slave" doesn't work well in my mind, because that implies involuntary servitude, and that is satanic. But by all means yes, we should serve God, but voluntarily. He is the Creator, and He is the King and Sovereign of the Universe, but also our Father. Guess that would make us part of the royal family, eh? And He is (metaphorically) the bridegroom, and the Church his bride. "Bridegroom" and "Father" emphasize the great love He feels for us. "Warrior King" emphasizes that he will ultimately triumph over evil. Etc.--you get the picture.