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Where Is The Bom Cumorah?

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No thanks. Lehi

Not so fast, how does denying (at your convenience) Official Church History and Canon affect your salvation? Don't let the door hit you on your way out, but thanks for stopping by.

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You disregard Official Church History and Canon then?

Official church history and official church doctrine are 2 different things don't conflate the 2.

Were in the cannon are we told that the hill cumorah spoken of in the BoM is the same one in New York?

Not everything that is in church history is church doctrine.

That is being lazy and sloppy.

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No thanks.

Lehi

I am with you on this one. Bummer too, I like a good thread but this is not it. Later.

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Not everything that is in church history is church doctrine. That is being lazy and sloppy.

Never said they were, but they out rank what Mesotheorist use.

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Never said they were, but they out rank what Mesotheorist use.
I didn't realize rank determined truth. The BoMormon is as canonical as you can get, and it is pretty clear from the text that the Cumorah in the BoMormon was one place, and the place where the BoMormon plates were hidden is another. Travelling for decades and then coming back to the same spot? Really?

Also, Palmyra N.Y. has volcanoes in close proximity? Did they have metallurgy? Writing? No evidence for that, but lots of evidence in Mesoamerica. Also, the Nephites would have had to have travelled INCREDIBLY far to get from Bountiful (in India) to Palmyra. I've never read of such an incredibly long journey. All the wars in the BoMormon take place from city to city within relatively close proximity. I've never read, "And we marched for 6 months to get to Cumorah." It's not a plausible theory judging by the BoMormon text itself.

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It says:

a. Moroni and Mormon knew of Nephi's prophecy that they would loose the battle and be destroyed.

b. Moroni and Mormon were "at the front" of their 10k.

c. They secured all records before going to battle, meaning, they were in place where Joseph could find prior to going to battle.

"meaning, they were in place where Joseph could find prior to going to battle." It does not say this, only that they were hidden. You are surmising something that is not in the text.

It also says:

d. Moroni was somewhat surprised that he survived. He then got the plates and continued his writings.

e. He wandered around for about 30 years, dodging the Lamanites.

f. He then deposited the plates in a hill in NY, where JS would find them.

g. There is no mention or hint that the first hiding place was at the same location as the second in the BOM text. Indeed the name of the second hiding place is not given.

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"meaning, they were in place where Joseph could find prior to going to battle." It does not say this, only that they were hidden. You are surmising something that is not in the text.

It also says:

d. Moroni was somewhat surprised that he survived. He then got the plates and continued his writings.

e. He wandered around for about 30 years, dodging the Lamanites.

f. He then deposited the plates in a hill in NY, where JS would find them.

g. There is no mention or hint that the first hiding place was at the same location as the second in the BOM text. Indeed the name of the second hiding place is not given.

The Lord can move things as he feels the need to. There is no reason to believe that Moroni hid them in the same hill as the one where he turned over custody of the plates to Joseph.

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That's funny because:

a. The N.J. would be built on BoM land.

b. Do you believe Independence is ancient BoM land, or are you planning on walking/riding your bike to Mesoamerica when it's built there?

It seems your entire theory is premised on a narrow geographical definition of the word this. This land can just as easily refer to any part of North, South, or Central America when the reference is in juxtaposition (implied or otherwise) to that land, i.e. the land across the ocean.

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It seems your entire theory is premised on a narrow geographical definition of the word this. This land can just as easily refer to any part of North, South, or Central America when the reference is in juxtaposition (implied or otherwise) to that land, i.e. the land across the ocean.

Please state whether you accept Joseph's statement of where the final battle was.

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Please state whether you accept Joseph's statement of where the final battle was.

To which specific "statement" do you refer?

Did he, when making that specific statement, tell us it was by revelation?

When did he make this specific statement, and to whom was he speaking?

Let's recall, please, that Joseph himself, was emphatic that he was not always speaking as a prophet of God, and that he frequently referred to Mesoamerica when psekaing of Book of Mormon Geography.

The evidence is not all in, the evidence we do have is not definitive.

Please tell us how this affects our salvation.

Lehi

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Let's recall, please, that Joseph himself, was emphatic that he was not always speaking as a prophet of God, and that he frequently referred to Mesoamerica when psekaing of Book of Mormon Geography.

The only reason for looking sooooo faaaarrrrrrrrrr south is because of statements by Joseph. Without those, no one would have postulated that a record found in WNY had ANYTHING to do with Guatemala. Therefore, you must give greater weight to Joseph's statements given in Official Church History wherein he saidi

a: Both final battles occured in Palmyra.

b. All records are stored there.

Thus, if you accept a Limited Geography Model AND use statements by Joseph Smith, it is impossible to look anywhere beyond Western New York.

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@BOMG: I am just curious why it is important to you that the hill Ramah and the hill Cumorah be two different hills, when it is manifestly obvious that both hills are in the same "neighborhood"; and any authoritative statements (such as Talmage) say they are the same hill....

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Please state whether you accept Joseph's statement of where the final battle was.

No need. Joseph was a Prophet, not the Pope, i.e. he was fallible. He made mistakes. I know he made mistakes. I also know that in spite of mistakes he made, he was the Lord's Prophet of the Restoration. Thus, I need not reject nor accept any statement of Joseph relative to Book of Mormon geography since, in my estimation, no such statement would have been a prophetic utterance.

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The only reason for looking sooooo faaaarrrrrrrrrr south is because of statements by Joseph. Without those, no one would have postulated that a record found in WNY had ANYTHING to do with Guatemala.

Really? You know this for a fact, that no LDS archaeologist would be intrigued with finds of ancient civilization in Mesoamerica and their possible correlation to the Book of Mormon if Joseph Smith had not made statements placing Book of Mormon events in that venue? You mean to say that no one would have thought that Moroni might have wandered far from his native homeland during the decades following the final war that he was involved in? I suspect you underestimate the curiosity of archaeologists.

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I didn't realize rank determined truth.

To some, they place "Thus saith the Lord" above other verses of Scripture; Canonized scripture above Official Church History; Official Church History above other church histories; first hand accounts above second and third; three witnesses above one; and so it goes. Do you rank truth different then thus described?

The BoMormon is as canonical as you can get, and it is pretty clear from the text that the Cumorah in the BoMormon was one place, and the place where the BoMormon plates were hidden is another.

Hmm, the BoM is clear, it was Cumorah.

Travelling for decades and then coming back to the same spot? Really?

Really? The text says Moroni wandered locally because he continued to report the events going on there.

Also, Palmyra N.Y. has volcanoes in close proximity?

Really? Where does it use the word volcano? Btw, volcanoes don't proffer selective damage like occurred at the coming of Christ, and no, the effects of volcanoes were never reported at any time throughout the entire BoM. Nor hurricans, typhoons, mud slides - in short, the norm for Guatemala.

Did they have metallurgy? Writing? No evidence for that, but lots of evidence in Mesoamerica.

Exactly, writings are found in Mesoamerica, but not a single one confirms the BoM - that's a strike against Mesoamerica, not for it. Btw, the enemy purposely wiped all evidences of the Nephites from off the earth.

Also, the Nephites would have had to have travelled INCREDIBLY far to get from Bountiful (in India) to Palmyra. I've never read of such an incredibly long journey.

Transatlantic crossings happened regularly, how do you think America was discovered and populated? Btw, the sailed out the Mediterranean Sea, not the Arabian. That's right, the Jaredites, the Nephites and the Mulekites followed one of the routes of the Phoneticians.

All the wars in the BoMormon take place from city to city within relatively close proximity. I've never read, "And we marched for 6 months to get to Cumorah." It's not a plausible theory judging by the BoMormon text itself.

That's why Mesotheorists created the Limited Geography Theory, problem is, you can't have a final battle in Palmyra and BoM lands anywhere outside of New York. Remember, Omer traveled through Cumorah, so we know that the Sea North is north of Palmyra. The entire geography makes sense on one place - Western New York, fulfilled land prophecies and all!

"From all the evidence in the Book of Mormon, augmented by the testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith, these final battles took place in the territory known as the United States, and in the neighborhood of the Great Lakes, and hills of Western New York." (President Joseph Fielding Smith Jr.)

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@BOMG: I am just curious why it is important to you that the hill Ramah and the hill Cumorah be two different hills, when it is manifestly obvious that both hills are in the same "neighborhood"; and any authoritative statements (such as Talmage) say they are the same hill....

You concur they are two separate hills then? Btw, I did say they are in the same area. I'm respecting the text.

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You concur they are two separate hills then?

Doh!

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On the occasion of his first visit to Joseph Smith, Moroni told of the existence of the record, which, he said, was engraved on plates of gold, at that time lying buried in the side of a hill near Joseph's home. The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York." James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Ch. 14, Pg. 255-256. This quote is not mentioned in Fair's Wiki. "The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York, resulting in the destruction of the Nephites as a nation, about 400 A.D. The last Nephite representative was Moroni, who, wandering for safety from place to place, daily expecting death from the victorious Lamanites, wrote the concluding parts of the Book of Mormon, and hid the record in Cumorah. It was the same Moroni who as a resurrected being, gave the records into the hands of Joseph Smith in the present dispensation." James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Ch 14, Pg. 260. This quote is not mentioned in Fair's Wiki.

"If the editors of The New Mormon Challenge really want their readers to understand what Latter-day Saints believe, why not let us tell our own story? Why not refer readers to books about LDS doctrine written by Latter-day Saints for Latter-day Saints? Let me make a positive suggestion here: Why not encourage them to read Jesus the Christ or The Articles of Faith, both by the late Apostle James E. Talmage?" David L. Paulsen, A General Response to the New Mormon Challenge, FR 14/1:99 (2002).

Thanks for these. We'd like the wiki to have every remark about the matter that we can find.

I've added these under 1899, since that is the earliest entry in the Library of Congress for Articles of Faith.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Statements/Nineteenth_century/After_Joseph's_death

We'd welcome other statements that are not yet included (this is basically an on-going project where when we run onto something, we add it). Best way to make sure the message gets to the right people is to use FAIR's on-line contact form, and send it to the wiki team:

http://www.fairlds.org/contact.php

GLS

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"meaning, they were in place where Joseph could find prior to going to battle." It does not say this, only that they were hidden. You are surmising something that is not in the text.

If they knew their people would be destroyed and if they were at the front of their 10k each, then the text is clear, they were secured where Joseph could find them before going to battle.

It also says:

d. Moroni was somewhat surprised that he survived. He then got the plates and continued his writings.

e. He wandered around for about 30 years, dodging the Lamanites.

f. He then deposited the plates in a hill in NY, where JS would find them.

g. There is no mention or hint that the first hiding place was at the same location as the second in the BOM text. Indeed the name of the second hiding place is not given.

Agreed on your "d" and "e" but one must remember:

a. Where did he get additional plates to write on as more proof he stayed nearby.

b. He did not know how long he would live for.

c. He lived one day at a time.

d. He kept his eye on the plates, probably from a distance.

e. He kept the plates where they were - except for the few plates he was writing on - so if he was found with them, they could not be confiscated, melted down and lost forever. Meaning, he was not traveling thousands of miles with them through enemy territory.

f. Use his P.O.V. not a Mesotheorists.

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Thanks for these. We'd like the wiki to have every remark about the matter that we can find.

I've added these under 1899, since that is the earliest entry in the Library of Congress for Articles of Faith.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Statements/Nineteenth_century/After_Joseph's_death

We'd welcome other statements that are not yet included (this is basically an on-going project where when we run onto something, we add it). Best way to make sure the message gets to the right people is to use FAIR's on-line contact form, and send it to the wiki team:

http://www.fairlds.org/contact.php

GLS

Talmage was not an apostle or a general authority when Articles of Faith was first published. Shortly thereafter.

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The Lord can move things as he feels the need to. There is no reason to believe that Moroni hid them in the same hill as the one where he turned over custody of the plates to Joseph.

If that were the case, the plates would have been delivered to Joseph in Vermont so the Smiths would not have to move to Palmyra, NY and the Erie Canal would not have to be built to get the Gentiles by the "multitudes" to ancient BoM lands in Western NY.

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If they knew their people would be destroyed and if they were at the front of their 10k each, then the text is clear, they were secured where Joseph could find them before going to battle.

The flaw in your logic is that Moroni did not die in the final battle. You would have a point if Moroni had died in the battle, but he didn't.

The Lord preserved Moroni to move the record to NY in the intervening 30 years after the war.

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The flaw in your logic is that Moroni did not die in the final battle. You would have a point if Moroni had died in the battle, but he didn't.

The Lord preserved Moroni to move the record to NY in the intervening 30 years after the war.

Read the last post, the plates were not taken to Joseph, the Smiths were taken to them. Btw, the Gentiles, i.e. the Smiths, would be led to ancient BoM lands, so your theory is false.

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Looking at things, it would appear that Moroni DID indeed travel thousands of miles...in other cases how would Moroni been able to dedicate the site of the temple of Manti as Brigham Young had said?

And BOMG, you don't have to literally read "typhoon", "volcano", "mudslides" etc. in order for it to be one of those. Cities are mentioned as catching fire. Other cities were sunk in the ocean or in lakes and rivers. Others are mentioned as being buried inside of mountains. The land is described as being dark for three days to the point that lighting a fire was impossible.

In southern Mexico and in Guatemala there are MULTIPLE ruins that are under water and even sayings among the local tribes that said cities were cursed. There are multiple volcanoes and the region is susceptible to hurricanes and violent storms.

In Western New York and the Great Lakes Region, the zone is susceptible to violent storms but there is absolutely NO volcanism to speak of. Nor are there frequent mudslides.

No writing system either. No cities that supported thousands of people until several hundred years AFTER the BoM timeline.

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Read the last post, the plates were not taken to Joseph, the Smiths were taken to them. Btw, the Gentiles, i.e. the Smiths, would be led to ancient BoM lands, so your theory is false.

It is possible that with that, you might have to include Utah in your theories. The Aztecs and the Toltecs of Mesoamerica are theorized to have left from Utah and Arizona on their migrations southward. Just sayin.

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