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Thinking

Where Is The Bom Cumorah?

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May I note that Christopher Columbus never made it to North America. He was in the islands of the Caribbean, and in Central America.

That's a strawman brought up by Calmoriah post #24.

I don't think you know what a straw man is.

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I am arguing the obvious, it's the U.S. Don't let the word "city" throw you off. Many refer to our country as "a city on a hill."

Really, were? CFR.

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BOMG, it is easier to pick out errors in your posts than actual facts, here is an example;

See here;

Pooned.

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Pooned.

Thank you for your wonderful contributions.

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BOMG, it is easier to pick out errors

You mean that your silence on the other 99% is because they are accurate?

Yes that verse does confirm what I said, the bulk of the records were stored in Ramah, not Cumorah. Thank you!

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I am arguing the obvious, it's the U.S. Don't let the word "city" throw you off. Many refer to our country as "a city on a hill."

Well, it's not obvious to me, so humor me.

Are you are arguing that the New Jerusalem has already been established, i.e. it presently exists as a city (or a nation if you please) in the Western Hemisphere?

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Well, it's not obvious to me, so humor me.

Are you are arguing that the New Jerusalem has already been established, i.e. it presently exists as a city (or a nation if you please) in the Western Hemisphere?

statue-liberty.jpg

Much happened before the BoM came forth, for example two Great Awakenings. The following verses show it would be in place before the BoM came forth:

22 But if they (Gentiles) will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them,
*
and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob (Indians), unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

23 And they (Gentiles) shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob (Indians), and also as many of the house of Israel (Jews) as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the
New Jerusalem
.
.

24 And then shall they (Gentiles) assist my people (Indians) that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the
New Jerusalem
.

25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.

26
And then
shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when
this gospel shall be preached
among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem. (3 Nephi 21)

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Thank you for your wonderful contributions.

They are about as meaningful as your interpretations. I mean come on, you are being sloppy with your citations and being very selective with your passages and dismissing anything that suggest a different location than NY as Cumorah.

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They are about as meaningful as your interpretations. I mean come on, you are being sloppy with your citations and being very selective with your passages and dismissing anything that suggest a different location than NY as Cumorah.

Hmmm, "sloppy," "selective," "dismissing," you're confused. This is the thread that respects:

a. Official Church History - Final battles were in Palmyra, NY.

b. Official Church Canon - Moroni speaking to Joseph at a hill called Cumorah in Palmyra prior to the BoM coming forth.

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You mean that your silence on the other 99% is because they are accurate?

Not really, almost all of your contributions is twisted and misinterpreted. Why should I spend the time to try and prove to you what is obvious to most posters in this thread?
Yes that verse does confirm what I said, the bulk of the records were stored in Ramah, not Cumorah. Thank you!

But this is not what you said, here let me remind you of what you actually wrote;

... the presumption that the Hill Cumorah is also the Hill Ramah is not supported by the BoM.

I showed they are the same hill from a verse from the Book of Mormon (Ether 15:11) that contradicted what you wrote. You then write that "the bulk of the records were stored in Ramah, not Cumorah."

They are the same hill.

Anijen

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They are the same hill.Anijen

Really?

What's the verse(s), I need at least two or three to support your premise.

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If it's not in New York where the gold plates were found, where is it?

Where the plates were finally deposited? In New York. The BoM itself seems to imply two Cumorahs. The first one where the plates were originally stored. And then after the last great battle, Moroni is wandering around and in hiding for decades. Not likely he put them back in the same place as before.

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Where the plates were finally deposited? In New York. The BoM itself seems to imply two Cumorahs. The first one where the plates were originally stored. And then after the last great battle, Moroni is wandering around and in hiding for decades. Not likely he put them back in the same place as before.

Let's hypothesize that "Cumorah" means "library" or "archive".

It would be natural for Moroni to name the repository "Cumorah" because no matter where that one was, it would be an archive.

We don't know what Cumorah means, but it is reasonably clear that there were two. Ramah/Cumorah was in the Jaredite/Nephite homeland, the other one was far away, and had to be the place where Moroni finally archived his record.

Lehi

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Where the plates were finally deposited? In New York. The BoM itself seems to imply two Cumorahs.

Two depositories yes, but not two Cumorahs.

And then after the last great battle, Moroni is wandering around and in hiding for decades. Not likely he put them back in the same place as before.

It says:

a. Moroni and Mormon knew of Nephi's prophecy that they would loose the battle and be destroyed.

b. Moroni and Mormon were "at the front" of their 10k.

c. They secured all records before going to battle, meaning, they were in place where Joseph could find prior to going to battle.

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Really?

What's the verse(s), I need at least two or three to support your premise.

I think I am through here. Best of luck.

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Much happened before the BoM came forth, for example two Great Awakenings. The following verses show it would be in place before the BoM came forth:

22 But if they (Gentiles) will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them,
*
and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob (Indians), unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

23 And they (Gentiles) shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob (Indians), and also as many of the house of Israel (Jews) as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the
New Jerusalem
.
.

24 And then shall they (Gentiles) assist my people (Indians) that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the
New Jerusalem
.

25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.

26
And then
shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when
this gospel shall be preached
among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem. (3 Nephi 21)

Interesting interpretation, but I find it relies too much on a very strict and uncritical reading of the scriptures, done in isolation and in disregard of the multitude of other scriptures that touch on the establishment of the New Jerusalem. I only hope I am not too proud to accept further light and knowledge as it is revealed from heaven, but will likely remain steadfastly stubborn against bending with the wind of mere mortal theories.

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Let's hypothesize that "Cumorah" means "library" or "archive". It would be natural for Moroni to name the repository "Cumorah" because no matter where that one was, it would be an archive.

Cumorah was the name of land, and the "Hill Cumorah" the name of a hill. So yes, that would make sense if the greater depository was also in Palmyra like Whitmer and others said. Good point!

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Interesting interpretation, but I find it relies too much on a very strict and uncritical reading of the scriptures, done in isolation and in disregard of the multitude of other scriptures that touch on the establishment of the New Jerusalem. I only hope I am not too proud to accept further light and knowledge as it is revealed from heaven, but will likely remain steadfastly stubborn against bending with the wind of mere mortal theories.

That's funny because:

a. The N.J. would be built on BoM land.

b. Do you believe Independence is ancient BoM land, or are you planning on walking/riding your bike to Mesoamerica when it's built there?

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I think I am through here. Best of luck.

You disregard Official Church History and Canon then?

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You disregard Official Church History and Canon then?

I believe it would be fairer to say that he reads them differently (and more inclusively) than you do. Nothing more.

Please tell us how this affects our salvation.

Lehi

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I believe it would be fairer to say that he reads them differently (and more inclusively) than you do.

By all means share.

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By all means share.

Seventy plus messages into this topic and you haven't read them? (Or so it appears.)

It seems that no amount of evidence would be sufficient to lead you to take even an "agnostic" stance, much less to accept that Moroni trekked several thousand miles over a two-decade period to hide the record where Joseph could retrieve it. It seems highly unlikely that he'd stick around the battlefield for 20+ years where evil and dedicated people were actively looking for him to kill him, when leaving the Area of Operations would be a much better and more effective solution to the problem of saving both himself and the record.

And, please, show us how this affects our salvation.

Lehi

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It seems that no amount of evidence would be sufficient to lead you to take even an "agnostic" stance,

Do you use this approach with all Official Church History and Canon?

much less to accept that Moroni trekked several thousand miles over a two-decade period to hide the record where Joseph could retrieve it.

A fine demonstration why Mesotheorists ignore the land prophecies and why you are unable to grasp the silliness of the notion that Moroni took the plates off BoM lands for Joseph to find. The Smiths were brought to the plates don't you know.

It seems highly unlikely that he's stick around the battlefield for 20+ years where evil and dedicated people were actively looking for him to kill him, when leaving the Area of Operations would be a much better and more effective solution to the problem of saving both himself and the record.

Have you ignored every reason why he stayed?

And, please, show us how this affects our salvation. Lehi

Do you know what happens to those found fighting against Zion? Shouldn't we be on God's side, or His work???

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Do you use this approach with all Official Church History and Canon?

No thanks.

Lehi

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On the occasion of his first visit to Joseph Smith, Moroni told of the existence of the record, which, he said, was engraved on plates of gold, at that time lying buried in the side of a hill near Joseph's home. The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York." James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Ch. 14, Pg. 255-256. This quote is not mentioned in Fair's Wiki. "The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York, resulting in the destruction of the Nephites as a nation, about 400 A.D. The last Nephite representative was Moroni, who, wandering for safety from place to place, daily expecting death from the victorious Lamanites, wrote the concluding parts of the Book of Mormon, and hid the record in Cumorah. It was the same Moroni who as a resurrected being, gave the records into the hands of Joseph Smith in the present dispensation." James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Ch 14, Pg. 260. This quote is not mentioned in Fair's Wiki.

"If the editors of The New Mormon Challenge really want their readers to understand what Latter-day Saints believe, why not let us tell our own story? Why not refer readers to books about LDS doctrine written by Latter-day Saints for Latter-day Saints? Let me make a positive suggestion here: Why not encourage them to read Jesus the Christ or The Articles of Faith, both by the late Apostle James E. Talmage?" David L. Paulsen, A General Response to the New Mormon Challenge, FR 14/1:99 (2002).

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