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Where Is The Bom Cumorah?

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So you are required to add to the scripture (it stands to reason) in order to make it apply to NY...

Not quite, but context is important when one knows what the traditional viewpoint is.

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Using your analogy, the lamp represents the Light of God and yes, by looking within its range we can and have located the true Cumorah and BoM lands; just follow the trail of fulfilled prophecies.

Yes, I read your "trail of fulfilled prophecies." Unfortunately, I do not see how any of them point to the hill in New York as being the place of storage of the collected records of the Nephites. Now, if you were one of those who hold to the theory that the events in the Book of Mormon took place in the Great Lakes region, it might make some sense, as a relocation of all Nephite records to that place in New York is conceivable. However, not if one holds to a Mesoamerican setting for the book. In that case, it would make sense for Moroni having carried just the condensed version of Nephite history to the place where Joseph Smith was going to be born 1500 years later, but not all Nephite records.

It means when the Mormon Church is no longer associated with the book, evidence will come forth. Until then, the evidence will remain hidden, like occurred with the following:

logo.png

http://channel.natio...121-interactive

You lost me.

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not if one holds to a Mesoamerican setting for the book... You lost me.

Good point, now you understand why Mesotheorists avoid fulfilled land prophecies. Regarding the NatGeo link, look for the following details:

a. The largest horde of gold ever found was discovered.

b. It was discovered on land that had been farmed for millennia.

c. It had already been gone over many times by prospectors.

d. The discoverer said a prayer before looking.

e. He said it was like the ground was "giving up the gold" and he could not stop it.

f. That discovery alone caused history, archaeology, etc. to be rewritten.

It is an example that:

a. Something can lay hidden in plain site for thousands of years.

b. Areas that had been searched by others can yet reveal treasures.

c. When the right person says the right prayer, the earth (and God) will cooperate.

d. A single discovery can turn upside down many fields of study.

e. We can expect that to happen on ancient BoM lands.

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1. "Jesus will be among them." Was fulfilled when Jesus visited Joseph Smith (Palmyra, NY).

Are you arguing that Joseph Smith constitues a people?

2. "The power of God will be among them." Was fulfilled in Western NY. (The Burned-over District)

In that case so do the countless missions dotting historic and modern Mexico.

3. Their mother countries attacked the Gentiles "on the land and waters." (Western, NY)

See the Mexican War of Independence and the Maximilian Adventure.

4. The rocks were split both "above the ground and below." (Niagara Falls, Western, NY)

Your Niagara example is invalid, as the verse quoted indicates that said destruction will occur upon the death of Jesus.

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Are you arguing that Joseph Smith constitues a people?

There are many testimonies at that time of visitations by Jesus Christ, so yes, Jesus was among the people in WNY.

In that case so do the countless missions dotting historic and modern Mexico.

The Missions were what the Gentiles were fleeing from, you know, a perpetuation of the Dark Ages. So no, not even close.

See the Mexican War of Independence and the Maximilian Adventure.

Already debunked.

Your Niagara example is invalid, as the verse quoted indicates that said destruction will occur upon the death of Jesus.

You're right, that is when they occurred; the exact date is open to interpretation, now you have mine.

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BOMG said;

Why not, it fulfills all the prophecies; no other place does.
This is incorrect. I will explain this answering some of your other statements.
Moroni was safe staying locally among the dead - where the stench kept most away.
The stench kept people back for 36 years?
1 "Jesus will be among them." Was fulfilled when Jesus visited Joseph Smith (Palmyra, NY).

2 "The power of God will be among them." Was fulfilled in Western NY. (The Burned-over District)

3 Their mother countries attacked the Gentiles "on the land and waters." (Western, NY)

4 The rocks were split both "above the ground and below." (Niagara Falls, Western, NY)

All of these do not make New York the “only place” like you said in fact these could be numerous places including Mesoamerica

The identity of that individual may be surmised if the verse is read in context:

And this;

Not quite, but context is important when one knows what the traditional viewpoint is.

First of all when you say you have to view it in context you cannot change the wording as you did with 1Nephi 13:12-15 or it messes up the very context. You changed what the scripture said to match your idea of context. That is not taking it in context but exactly the opposite. Context also means the preceding and following passages.

Let us take into context the verse you quoted (22 in 3 Nephi chapter 20),

With verse 21;

21 And it shall come to pass that I will establish my people, O house of Israel.

22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.

“this people” is a reference to the house of Israel (see verse 21) being established in this land. This could qualify the Saints past or present and all descendants of Jacob it does not mean those who live only in New York and it definitely does not mean solely one person [Joseph Smith]. And last of all no where does it say this land is NY or Mesoamerica.

Just saying

Anijen

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The stench kept people back for 36 years?

Disagreeing with one out of seven is not bad. Your silence is acknowledgment of the other five then?

a. Moroni and Mormon both knew of Nephi's prophecy - they would be destroyed.

b. Moroni and Mormon both were "at the front" of their armies and had every intention of dying with them therefore the plates had to be secured before the battle.

c. Moroni was safe staying locally among the dead - where the stench kept most away.

d. He reported that the Lamanites were at war among themselves, he therefore was close by.

e. He stayed to protect the record(s), guarding them.

f. Where did he get the additional plates to write on? A second depository as many have said.

All of these do not make New York the “only place” like you said in fact these could be numerous places including Mesoamerica

Cite one Mesotheorists who explains where and how those prophecies were fulfilled. There are none, therefore one must conclude your statement is unfounded.

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Cite one Mesotheorists who explains where and how those prophecies were fulfilled. There are none, therefore one must conclude your statement is unfounded.

As I said, I went over your original list, and I found only vague and unwarranted correspondances. I would call it "reaching", because it certainly was not compelling.

I don't doubt that, given sufficient motivation, I could come up with many different scriptural verses that explain why my life is the way it is. Some of them might even be valid, but to claim prophetic fulfillment would be a big leap.

I don't buy your theories. Sorry! A mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon remains, for me, the most likely.

As it turns out, happily, whether or not this is ultimately correct will have Zip to do with my salvation.

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First of all when you say you have to view it in context you cannot change the wording as you did with 1Nephi 13:12-15 or it messes up the very context. You changed what the scripture said to match your idea of context. That is not taking it in context but exactly the opposite.

Those were changes suggested by the Critical BoM Project.

So I say let us take it in context and read verse 21 also; “this people” is a reference to the house of Israel (see verse 21) being established in this land. This could qualify the Saints past or present and all descendants of Jacob it does not mean those who live only in New York and it definitely does not mean solely one person [Joseph Smith]. And last of all no where does it say this land is NY or Mesoamerica. Anijen

Thank you for addressing the "this land" reference that is replete throughout early mormon texts including the first angle encounter to Joseph, D&C 10 and the BoM. To be clear, the verses you are referencing are indeed of the inhabitants where the BoM would come forth. Read the whole chapter not just the verses you want.

I don't buy your theories. Sorry! A mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon remains, for me, the most likely. As it turns out..whether or not this is ultimately correct will have Zip to do with my salvation.

If the United States government fulfills prophecy as I contend it does, and if you are supporting models outside of America, then you'll be "cut off" for fighting against Zion. Look it up!

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The identity of that individual may be surmised if the verse is read in context:

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles who
was
were separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters and I beheld the Spirit of God that it came down and wrought upon the man and he went forth upon the many waters even unto the seed of my brethren who were in the promised land.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God that it wrought upon other Gentiles and they went forth out of captivity upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise and I beheld the wrath of God that it was upon the seed of my brethren and they were scattered before the Gentiles and [they] were smitten.

15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord that it was upon the Gentiles
and
[that] they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance and I beheld that they were white and exceedingly fair and beautiful like unto my people before [that] they were slain. (1Ne.13:12-15)

Since BoM lands were hidden, it stands to reason the first explorers would not immediate find BoM lands. Which explorers traveled inland? They are the possible candidates.

The Spanish? Were not the Aztecs and Incas destroyed by the Spanish?

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There are many testimonies at that time of visitations by Jesus Christ, so yes, Jesus was among the people in WNY.

And in Ohio.

The Missions were what the Gentiles were fleeing from, you know, a perpetuation of the Dark Ages. So no, not even close.

Whaaa? You are holding up one form of apostate Christianity against another. Your own cultural bias and abject ignorance and disregard of history.

Already debunked.

You mean summarily dismissed by a wave of the hand. Please explain why Mexicans fighting for freedom against the countries where a good deal of them originated from doesn't count.

You're right, that is when they occurred; the exact date is open to interpretation, now you have mine.

Your interpretation is blatantly false, countered by the very verse.

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Those were changes suggested by the Critical BoM Project.

Then why did you not credit them when you quoted them? My point was if you change the wording of a quote you cannot say it is in context.
Thank you for addressing the "this land" reference that is replete throughout early mormon texts including the first angle encounter to Joseph, D&C 10 and the BoM. To be clear, the verses you are referencing are indeed of the inhabitants where the BoM would come forth. Read the whole chapter not just the verses you want.
I do read the whole chapters and then I will read commentaries and then I will read what church leaders have written on the subject. To imply I am not reading the whole chapter is wrong. And to connect the "this land" phrases exclusively to New York area is okay if you want to posit as your ideas and theory but to say that is the only view of the church would be wrong.

You are incorrect again. The first encounter Joseph had with an angel was Moroni on Sept 21, 1823. It does not mention "this people"

JS History

34 He said there was a abook deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

Please do not misquote. So far you have changed the words in scripture (1 Nephi13:12-15) and put the words "this land" in scripture (JS History verse 34) and you used quotation marks to do so. When the correct wording is "this continent"

It simply appears you are stretching it to fit your theory. This is bad scholarship and hurts your cause in the long run.

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Actually, these passages in 1 Nephi 13 do not say that the land was "hidden." They indicate that the Lord brought the man in question, who most would identify with Columbus unto the seed of Lehi who were in the promised land.

There was a recent treatment of the prophecies issue which I think makes more sense and is consistent with the teachings of Latter-day Saint Prophets and Apostles. See Matthew Roper, "Losing the Remnant: The New Exclusivist `Movement' and the Book of Mormon," FARMS Review 22/2 (2010): 87-124.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=22&num=2&id=806

Those who are interested in these questions may want to look at Roper's take. He discusses the prophecy in 1 Nephi 13 and other prophecies in 3 Nephi which are discussed on this thread.

The identity of that individual may be surmised if the verse is read in context:

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles who
was
were separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters and I beheld the Spirit of God that it came down and wrought upon the man and he went forth upon the many waters even unto the seed of my brethren who were in the promised land.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God that it wrought upon other Gentiles and they went forth out of captivity upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise and I beheld the wrath of God that it was upon the seed of my brethren and they were scattered before the Gentiles and [they] were smitten.

15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord that it was upon the Gentiles
and
[that] they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance and I beheld that they were white and exceedingly fair and beautiful like unto my people before [that] they were slain. (1Ne.13:12-15)

Since BoM lands were hidden, it stands to reason the first explorers would not immediate find BoM lands. Which explorers traveled inland? They are the possible candidates.

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May I note that Christopher Columbus never made it to North America. He was in the islands of the Caribbean, and in Central America.

As for the vision of Joseph and Oliver seeing mounds of Nephite documents, it is clearly a vision. The side of the hill opened up to them. It is just as likely it was either a vision, or they were transported by the Spirit to another place.

The prophecies claimed above for the Palmyra area can be read in many ways. The USA does fulfill those prophecies, but so does the fact that Central and South America kicked out their Gentile leaders. That Joseph Smith stated Zion is on the North and South American continents means there is a lot of space we can be working with here on where the actual BoM lands were.

Finally, to ignore the textual clues within the BoM is the only way to come up with a US/Palmyra model.

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Then why did you not credit them when you quoted them?..does not mention "this people"...changed the words in scripture (1 Nephi13:12-15) and put the words "this land" in scripture (JS History verse 34) and you used quotation marks to do so. When the correct wording is "this continent" ...It simply appears you are stretching it to fit your theory. This is bad scholarship and hurts your cause in the long run.

Nice try, the changes suggested had no affect on the text and you should rejoice I included them parenthetically so you had the true reading of the text and could see in either reading my use was accurate.

I'm beginning to think you should stick to one thread or another as you know there are more angel accounts than one and that my statement is accurate.

Again you conveniently avoid all other references. You have nothing to say about the others mentioned? Not the D&C or BoM?

Which phrase do think was used most often by a. Jesus, b. an angel, and c. Joseph or his family?

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Actually, these passages in 1 Nephi 13 do not say that the land was "hidden." They indicate that the Lord brought the man in question, who most would identify with Columbus unto the seed of Lehi who were in the promised land.

The common understanding that their lands were hidden is based on other verses. If you need those let me know.

There was a recent treatment of the prophecies issue which I think makes more sense and is consistent with the teachings of Latter-day Saint Prophets and Apostles. See Matthew Roper, "Losing the Remnant: The New Exclusivist `Movement' and the Book of Mormon," FARMS Review 22/2 (2010): 87-124.

That was a book review of the Heartland model which misses fulfilled land prophecies as well. Roper failed to identify how all land prophecies were fulfilled, and if he thought it a betrayal of the Amerindians who are church members in that neck of the woods, he has failed to address how those far north have been neglected all along.

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D&C 128:20 "… Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. …"

If the hill in NY isn't the "real" Cumorah, Joseph Smith and God will sure be surprised. "Wrest the scriptures to your own [confusion]", by all means....

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D&C 128:20 "… Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. …"

If the hill in NY isn't the "real" Cumorah, Joseph Smith and God will sure be surprised. "Wrest the scriptures to your own [confusion]", by all means....

How many places are named for (in honor of) others?

There are a dozen cities and towns in USmerica with the n ame "Paris". It is hard to imagine anyone's trying to make the case that Paris, Idaho/Texas/etc., is the one from which Charles deGaul fled from the Germans because it shares its name with the City of Light.

The list, just in Utah, is extensive where shared names abound. There are dozens of Mount Pisgahs scattered across this land. How many "Shilohs" are there?

The evdience is not all in. The evidence points in several directions. The fact is that it's really unimportant. Why all the rancor?

Lehi

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May I note that Christopher Columbus never made it to North America. He was in the islands of the Caribbean, and in Central America.

That's a strawman brought up by Calmoriah post #24.

As for the vision of Joseph and Oliver seeing mounds of Nephite documents, it is clearly a vision. The side of the hill opened up to them. It is just as likely it was either a vision, or they were transported by the Spirit to another place.

Fortunately there are others who had knowledge of stored records in Palmyra that are not based on a vision and can't be tossed out of hand. (See David Whitmer for one, and yes, caves do exist there.) Also, the presumption that the Hill Cumorah is also the Hill Ramah is not supported by the BoM.

To see how it all fits, you must go upstream to the first Official Church History and where it says the final battle was - in Palmyra. Next, if the larger amount of records was stored in some other hill, i.e. Ramah, then Ramah is near Palmyra. After that, take Sorenson, et. al. framework of a Limited Geography and you are stuck in Western New York. Lucky for us, all land prophecies were fulfilled in Western New York where as not one was fulfilled in Missouri, Mexico or Guatemala.

The prophecies claimed above for the Palmyra area can be read in many ways. The USA does fulfill those prophecies, but so does the fact that Central and South America kicked out their Gentile leaders.

They only occur, together in Western NY. It's where the plates were found, where Joseph said the final battles were, where Jesus and God appeared to Joseph and others, where whites came by the "multitudes" via the Erie Canal, etc., where those white Gentiles together formulated a new government starting with the Albany Plan of Union and ending up with our Declaration and Constitution, where the Indians were both driven and sold their lands to those white multitudes of Gentiles "for their inheritance."

To be clear, BoM lands TODAY must be owned by white Gentiles and those white Gentiles must be the predominant race on the land, and yet they must be in league with the Indians such as with the Iroquois Confederacy and the United States. There can't be a Gentile king so that rules out Canada, Mexico and other nations.

That Joseph Smith stated Zion is on the North and South American continents means there is a lot of space we can be working with here on where the actual BoM lands were. Finally, to ignore the textual clues within the BoM is the only way to come up with a US/Palmyra model.

The only way to ignore the Western New York model is if you supplant what the BoM and early revelations say with later statements and from less authoritative sources.

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How many places are named for (in honor of) others? Lehi

How many places did Joseph say the final battles took place? Any other than Palmyra?

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And behold this people will I establish in this land unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob and it shall be a New Jerusalem and the
POWERS OF HEAVEN
shall be in the midst
of this people
yea even
I will be in the midst
of you.
(3Ne.20.22)

How does a prophecy about the esablishment of the New Jerusalem during the MIllennial reign of the Messiah help to locate Book of Mormon events in Western New York?

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How does a prophecy about the esablishment of the New Jerusalem during the MIllennial reign of the Messiah help to locate Book of Mormon events in Western New York?

Read the text, it would be setup before the BoM came forth.

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Read the text, it would be setup before the BoM came forth.

Are you are arguing that the New Jerusalem has already been established, i.e. it presently exists as a city in the Western Hemisphere?

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BOMG, it is easier to pick out errors in your posts than actual facts, here is an example;

Also, the presumption that the Hill Cumorah is also the Hill Ramah is not supported by the BoM.

See here;

Ether 15:11

And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.

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Are you are arguing that the New Jerusalem has already been established, i.e. it presently exists as a city in the Western Hemisphere?

I am arguing the obvious, it's the U.S. Don't let the word "city" throw you off. Many refer to our country as "a city on a hill."

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