34 replies to this topic

[calmoriah]

volgadon, on 09 June 2011 - 10:37 PM, said:

Considering the "celestial" and "earthly" temples, then yes. The pargod is the curtain or veil separating God from other angels.

Having read a bit on "pargod" ( http://www.jewishenc...id=936&letter=C ), I am wondering about your phrasing above about the veil separating God from others.  Is this considered to be similar to the Holy of Holies in earthly temples where on occasion at least one individual is allowed to enter into the direct presence of God or does the celestial pargod always stand between God and anyone else so that no one ever actually directly encounters Him?  IOW, I am wondering how it is believed the pargod operates as well as why the separation is considered necessary in the celestial court.

[volgadon]

calmoriah, on 09 June 2011 - 11:51 PM, said:

Having read a bit on "pargod" ( http://www.jewishenc...id=936&letter=C ), I am wondering about your phrasing above about the veil separating God from others.  Is this considered to be similar to the Holy of Holies in earthly temples where on occasion at least one individual is allowed to enter into the direct presence of God or does the celestial pargod always stand between God and anyone else so that no one ever actually directly encounters Him?  IOW, I am wondering how it is believed the pargod operates as well as why the separation is considered necessary in the celestial court.

Haven't had much time to post recently, but basically in ancient Judaism the angels were God's underlings, very often supercilious (and sometimes truculent) courtiers who are sticklers for etiquette and do not speak Aramaic. God, king of the universe, is greater and holier, and is separated from them by the pargod. Certain angels (by one account seven) are unique and do have access to God. There is a talmudic statement to the effect of the pargod not being closed to three [righteous men], underscoring man's unique relationship with God.

[Robert F. Smith]

Bill Hamblin, on 03 June 2011 - 04:41 PM, said:

A common belief espoused by many critics is that there were no biblical endowment-like secret traditions or rituals.  Assuming (perhaps over optimistically) no major meltdowns or diversions, I'll explore some of the implications of that claim here.  

On my web page I've posted a an examination of "The Endowment as Participation in the Sôd of YHWH."  It can be read at this link:

Endowment and Sod

Discussion can occur on this forum.

In 2009, LeGrand Baker and Stephen Ricks came out with the first edition of their Who Shall Ascend into the Hill of the Lord?  The Psalms in Israel's Worship in the OT and in the BOM.  The second edition is now out and I'm wondering whether you find their work useful in pointing to specific instances of endowment-like ceremonies in ancient Israel.

[Stone holm]

Read much Asimov?

[volgadon]

Stone holm, on 19 May 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Read much Asimov?

To whom is your question addressed?

[Robert F. Smith]

Stone holm, on 19 May 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Read much Asimov?

Are you referring to his Intelligent Man's Guide to the Bible?  or to the  6-7 book Foundation series?  Taking endowment as a type of secret foundation . . . with a far-reaching plan on how to save all mankind.

[rpn]

I get what a blessing the temple ordinances are, and why they would be necessary for prophets particularly to carry out their agent roles.  And I think it is possible that even the savior was endowed during the period of 40 days/nights, as one of the ordinances required on earth.  But I tend to think that the current temple purpose to have all receive it, has always been intended as a last dispensation by proxy for most of the world.  This is the only time where the records could conceivably be maintained for all those ordinances.  And this is the only time in history with sufficient numbers to do the work (and we'll need the entire millenium probably).

[Stone holm]

Robert F. Smith, on 19 May 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Are you referring to his Intelligent Man's Guide to the Bible?  or to the  6-7 book Foundation series?  Taking endowment as a type of secret foundation . . . with a far-reaching plan on how to save all mankind.

I see a lot of the Foundation series in the notion of the Hosts of Heaven holding secret meetings to manipulate history as part of a managed Creation.  The attempt to connect those meetings with a Temple Endowment session doesn't click for me. While the Endowment does impart knowledge and other important matters. It is not a meeting of the gods, nor is it even a current communication device connecting with such meetings, at least not while the ark of the covenant is missing. What might happen if the Prophet donned the Urim and Breastplate and entered the Holy of Holies that might be another matter.

[volgadon]

Stone holm, on 19 May 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I see a lot of the Foundation series in the notion of the Hosts of Heaven holding secret meetings to manipulate history as part of a managed Creation.  The attempt to connect those meetings with a Temple Endowment session doesn't click for me. While the Endowment does impart knowledge and other important matters. It is not a meeting of the gods, nor is it even a current communication device connecting with such meetings, at least not while the ark of the covenant is missing. What might happen if the Prophet donned the Urim and Breastplate and entered the Holy of Holies that might be another matter.

Try out this newer version. http://www.mormonint...-the-endowment/

I'll address your concerns later.

[calmoriah]

rpn, on 19 May 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

(and we'll need the entire millenium probably).

Urroner, IIRC, did the math many years back and given a reasonable number of temples operating 24/6 at full capacity, it came out to something under 300 years...the memory is very hazy so details are vague, but the main point that it wouldn't take even a majority of the Millennium to cover every person ever lived stuck.

However that does not include the time gathering records or keeping them so that might (or might not) add time.

[Stone holm]

volgadon, on 19 May 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Try out this newer version. http://www.mormonint...-the-endowment/

I'll address your concerns later.

Yeah, that doesn't really do it either, it one thing to put on a play indicating what a council is like, it's another to actually experience one. Plus, the depiction is more like a series of PPI reports than a Council.

[volgadon]

Stone holm, on 20 May 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

Yeah, that doesn't really do it either, it one thing to put on a play indicating what a council is like, it's another to actually experience one. Plus, the depiction is more like a series of PPI reports than a Council.

You are missing the point. The endowment is a ritualised portrayal of certain events during the course of which participants are gradually introduced higher and higher into the mysteries. As the participants covenant, more and more is revealed of the true meaning and purpose of God's plan. It all fits remarkably well, but you need to move past your Asimov hangup.

[Stone holm]

volgadon, on 20 May 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

You are missing the point. The endowment is a ritualised portrayal of certain events during the course of which participants are gradually introduced higher and higher into the mysteries. As the participants covenant, more and more is revealed of the true meaning and purpose of God's plan. It all fits remarkably well, but you need to move past your Asimov hangup.

Yeah.  Still don't see having ritual dramatic education as being the same as being in a strategy council of the gods.  Guess I'll stick with Harry Seldon.

[volgadon]

Stone holm, on 21 May 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Yeah.  Still don't see having ritual dramatic education as being the same as being in a strategy council of the gods.  Guess I'll stick with Harry Seldon.

That is ok, you seem to have shown little desire to seriously examine other perspectives. If you insist on thinking in those Asimovian terms  (and I do not nock his talent), then of course none of this will make sense. The endowment is God's way of revealing a secret to those who covenant with him- the secret of the meaning of history and the world.

[Stone holm]

volgadon, on 21 May 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

That is ok, you seem to have shown little desire to seriously examine other perspectives. If you insist on thinking in those Asimovian terms  (and I do not nock his talent), then of course none of this will make sense. The endowment is God's way of revealing a secret to those who covenant with him- the secret of the meaning of history and the world.

Oh I get that. The connection with the ongoing council of the gods is what eludes me. If you look at the quotes they just don't connect.