Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Craig Paxton

Restoring 'Thomas B. Marsh'S' Good Name

Recommended Posts

Sounds reasonable, although wikki has it listed as a boating accident:

From Wilkki:

"Lyman Johnson died in 1859, drowning in the Mississippi River in a boating accident at Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin. He had four children."

The local newspaper printed the following:

L. E. Johnson, the landlord of the Prairie Hotel, was accidently drowned night before last. He was in a sleigh with others, when it went through an air-hole in the ice of the Mississippi.

T-Shirt

Share this post


Link to post

Imagine the following scenario in High Priests quorum:

Brother X: "Did you hear Brother Jones has apostatized."

Brother Y: "That's, too bad. Did he get offended?"

Brother X: "No, he read on the internet about Joseph Smith marrying other mens' wives."

Brother Y: "Oh. Wait. What? What are you talking about 'other mens' wives'?"

That's why apostasy is sometimes contagious.

And the reason why the real reasons behind apostasy are not discussed at church.

You've certainly supported why you think it could be an issue, but i'm not buying that as a valid explanation.

I don't believe i've ever been in any general church meeting where someone's personal standing in the church was discussed. We would call that gossiping in Relief Society but maybe High Priests quorum runs a different way (i'm being sincere, i've never been to a HP meeting so have no idea how they are run and if discussing the beliefs of individual members of the quorum who aren't present is part of the legitimate duties of the sunday lesson time or not.)

Share this post


Link to post

Imagine the following scenario in High Priests quorum:

High Priests don't regularly meet as a quorum.

Brother X: "Did you hear Brother Jones has apostatized."

Brother Y: "That's, too bad. Did he get offended?"

Brother X: "No, he read on the internet about Joseph Smith marrying other mens' wives."

Brother Y: "Oh. Wait. What? What are you talking about 'other mens' wives'?"

We don't talk about other brothers. That's just not part of the curriculum.

That's why apostasy is sometimes contagious.

And the reason why the real reasons behind apostasy are not discussed at church.

But I can't recall any High Priest who didn't know these trvial points of Church history.

No harm, no foul.

Lehi

Share this post


Link to post

I'll keep that in mind, hopefully I've learned something today :)

My friend and I had many good conversations about different aspects of the LDS Faith. At the end of the day we drew different conclusions but we openly shared the information. I know my leaving the church was stressful on him. People would ask him why I wasn't at Church and he didn't want to tell people I had walked away from the Faith (pretty sure he was trying to protect my good name :rolleyes: ). Now I know he defends me to LDS people who criticize my decision. He doesn't agree with me but he also tells the people that if he couldn't believe in the doctrine he would walk away too.

I guess my point is this - unless you know the person closely you probably don't really have any idea why they really left the Church and speculating on the reasons won't do anyone any good.

Share this post


Link to post

We don't talk about other brothers. That's just not part of the curriculum.

Not part of the curriculum but gossipping was a common activity within the HP Group I belonged to. Just like anywhere that groups of people get together (work, family, etc) gossiping happens.

But I can't recall any High Priest who didn't know these trvial points of Church history.

I didn't know many of them as a youngish High Priests Group Leader. My fault for not digging in Church History more aggressively.

Share this post


Link to post

You've certainly supported why you think it could be an issue, but i'm not buying that as a valid explanation.

I don't believe i've ever been in any general church meeting where someone's personal standing in the church was discussed. We would call that gossiping in Relief Society but maybe High Priests quorum runs a different way (i'm being sincere, i've never been to a HP meeting so have no idea how they are run and if discussing the beliefs of individual members of the quorum who aren't present is part of the legitimate duties of the sunday lesson time or not.)

Yes, we set aside about 10 minutes for a free-wheeling discussion about the sins and follies of whomever doesn't happen to be there that week.

It's good for boosting attendance.

Share this post


Link to post

Its seems that LDS people are more comfortable with the notion of people leaving the Church over trivial offenses than they are will real doctrinal issues. As I left the Church I was continually asked who had offended me. The truth is no one offended me. I simply do not believe much of the doctrine.

Since people are aware of the doctrine, it seems somewhat silly to believe that doctrine they have known their entire lives suddenly changed for them. It almost seems counterintuitive. But the doctrine issue makes a great smokescreen for other issues don't you think? And I am not pointing to you personally, but think about it. Rather than admit how trivial the matter is, isn't really easy to pick one or two doctrines and suddenly "discover" that you don't believe them? Or suddenly prefer one critique of doctrine over another in order to justify breaking with the church. I mean its a great reason. Members certainly aren't going to change doctrine, so its easy to use as an excuse and an out.

I wonder how many have said its polygamy, not practicing it in the past, rather bringing it back. ;)

Sigh, its alway sumthi'n.

Share this post


Link to post

Yes, we set aside about 10 minutes a free-wheeling discussion about the sins and follies of whomever doesn't happen to be there that week.

It's good for boosting attendance.

We always did it during opening exercises :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
LeSellers, on 02 June 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

We don't talk about other brothers. That's just not part of the curriculum.

Not part of the curriculum but gossipping was a common activity within the HP Group I belonged to. Just like anywhere that groups of people get together (work, family, etc) gossiping happens.

Sorry you belonged to such a poor group. No one gossips in our group, if help is needed, its given, the "why" isn't speculated on. Maybe in your world its "just about anywhere", but I have found it to a minimum in my HP group, and generally so even in work experience. It is unseemly and does not enhance group support.

Share this post


Link to post

We always did it during opening exercises :rolleyes:

gossip.gif

Share this post


Link to post

Just out of curiosity, if you were your own home teacher/friend, how you would you approach/handle it?

Ohhhh......., can I answer this one?

HT: I'm sorry to hear that you no longer believe in the Restoration Bro. Brown. Is there anything we can do to help you?

Bro. Brn.: Well since it is out of bounds for me to write directly to one of the Brethren, could you kindly pass it back up the chain that I wish they would stop ignoring the 900 LB.

gorilla that's meeting with them every Tuesday morning (or whatever day it is) in the temple and acknowledge that the little people out here are leaving because the foundational

stories don't add up for us anymore, the old doctrines that the church tries hard to ignore or pretend aren't really there (or aren't really doctrine), are sticking in our craw and we're

gagging on it all. I know they all would like to say we're just the dim-lights who are knuckle draggers and can't figure out that we're just being "antied" to "spiritual death", or that we've

been sitting in the pews all these years wishing we could just go out and tie one on with a big bodacious babe who doesn't wear a pioneer dress, but really it isn't so. I know you'll

have a hard time believing me Bro. HT., but could you at least, you know, just give it a try......?

H.T.: No response...................................

Share this post


Link to post

Since people are aware of the doctrine, it seems somewhat silly to believe that doctrine they have known their entire lives suddenly changed for them. It almost seems counterintuitive. But the doctrine issue makes a great smokescreen for other issues don't you think? And I am not pointing to you personally, but think about it. Rather than admit how trivial the matter is, isn't really easy to pick one or two doctrines and suddenly "discover" that you don't believe them? Or suddenly prefer one critique of doctrine over another in order to justify breaking with the church. I mean its a great reason. Members certainly aren't going to change doctrine, so its easy to use as an excuse and an out.

I wonder how many have said its polygamy, not practicing it in the past, rather bringing it back. ;)

Sigh, its alway sumthi'n.

Speaking for myself only. There were always certain doctrinal issues that bothered me but I pushed them into the background. There were also certain historical issues I knew about and pushed to the background or ignored and new historical issues that I learned (some which I deemed insignificant and others that truly bothered me). I hit a point in my life where I either had to decide if I was fully "in" the church or fully "out" of the Church. My wife and I made the deliberate decision (after several months of introspection and study) to be out of the Church. No one offended us. We hadn't sinned. The doctrine hadn't changed. We simply didn't believe and decided to walk away.

Share this post


Link to post

We always did it during opening exercises :rolleyes:

For the record, I was speaking sarcastically.

But I think you understand that.

Share this post


Link to post

Ohhhh......., can I answer this one?

HT: I'm sorry to hear that you no longer believe in the Restoration Bro. Brown. Is there anything we can do to help you?

Bro. Brn.: Well since it is out of bounds for me to write directly to one of the Brethren, could you kindly pass it back up the chain that I wish they would stop ignoring the 900 LB.

gorilla that's meeting with them every Tuesday morning (or whatever day it is) in the temple and acknowledge that the little people out here are leaving because the foundational

stories don't add up for us anymore, the old doctrines that the church tries hard to ignore or pretend aren't really there or aren't really doctrine, are sticking in our craw and we're

gagging on it all. I know they all would like to say we're just the dim-lights who are knuckle draggers and can't figure out that we're just being "antied" to "spiritual death", or that we've

been sitting in the pews all these years wishing we could just go out and tie one on with a big bodacious babe who doesn't wear a pioneer dress, but really it isn't so. I know you'll

have a hard time believing me Bro. HT., but could you at least, you know, just give it a try......?

H.T.: No response...................................

Actually SJDawg gave a very intelligent response...

Share this post


Link to post

H.T.: No response...................................

No response..................................because when you can't think of anything nice or helpful to say, the best response is usually silence. :D

Share this post


Link to post

Sorry you belonged to such a poor group. No one gossips in our group, if help is needed, its given, the "why" isn't speculated on. Maybe in your world its "just about anywhere", but I have found it to a minimum in my HP group, and generally so even in work experience. It is unseemly and does not enhance group support.

I probably should have phrased that better. I don't want to portray the group members as a bunch of overactive gossipers. They were and are my friends. Gossip happens in the HP Group but it wasn't really any worse than anywhere else. I know that these Group Members would have bent over backwards to help me at any time.

Share this post


Link to post

Yes, we set aside about 10 minutes for a free-wheeling discussion about the sins and follies of whomever doesn't happen to be there that week.

It's good for boosting attendance.

:lol: Yep, that would be an incentive to be there.

Share this post


Link to post

For the record, I was speaking sarcastically.

But I think you understand that.

As was I, but I think having formal gossip as an agenda item could really boost attendance!

Share this post


Link to post

Since people are aware of the doctrine, it seems somewhat silly to believe that doctrine they have known their entire lives suddenly changed for them. It almost seems counterintuitive. But the doctrine issue makes a great smokescreen for other issues don't you think? And I am not pointing to you personally, but think about it. Rather than admit how trivial the matter is, isn't really easy to pick one or two doctrines and suddenly "discover" that you don't believe them? Or suddenly prefer one critique of doctrine over another in order to justify breaking with the church. I mean its a great reason. Members certainly aren't going to change doctrine, so its easy to use as an excuse and an out.

I wonder how many have said its polygamy, not practicing it in the past, rather bringing it back. ;)

Sigh, its alway sumthi'n.

Sorry to disagree with you but people, even those raised in the church are not always aware of "the doctrine", especially some of the far out ones that were tacitly accepted at one time and now disavowed. You're really oversimplifying this and trying to make it fit into your limited, narrow view of how you think things ought to be.

Share this post


Link to post

Actually SJDawg gave a very intelligent response...

Sorry.........couldn't resist.........

Since, when my home teacher came last time, I tried to have a calm, measured, intelligent conversation with him and he became offended that I would speak honestly (but courteously) about my feelings regarding Joseph Smith and the church, and he ended up frothing at the mouth, telling me I needed to repent, etc., etc.

So I'm still a little raw over that one.........

Share this post


Link to post

Sorry.........couldn't resist.........

Since, when my home teacher came last time, I tried to have a calm, measured, intelligent conversation with him and he became offended that I would speak honestly (but courteously) about my feelings regarding Joseph Smith and the church, and he ended up frothing at the mouth, telling me I needed to repent, etc., etc.

So I'm still a little raw over that one.........

I would be too.

Share this post


Link to post

The Joseph Smith Papers, v. 1 page 343, footnote states that Thomas B Marsh made a false statement against the Presidency and the church before the authorities of the State of Missouri which was a leading cause of the Governor's calling out the Militia against the church. It doesn't specify what that was but it obviously was more serious than mere disaffection.

Share this post


Link to post

The Joseph Smith Papers, v. 1 page 343, footnote states that Thomas B Marsh made a false statement against the Presidency and the church before the authorities of the State of Missouri which was a leading cause of the Governor's calling out the Militia against the church. It doesn't specify what that was but it obviously was more serious than mere disaffection.

I don't know much about Thomas Marsh, but from the information Craig Paxton posted in the opening post it may be debatable whther or not Marsh's statement was false. Either way, we know that milk strippings does not sufficiently explain Marsh's leaving the church.

Share this post


Link to post

gossip.gif

gossip.jpg

Share this post


Link to post

I don't know much about Thomas Marsh, but from the information Craig Paxton posted in the opening post it may be debatable whther or not Marsh's statement was false. Either way, we know that milk strippings does not sufficiently explain Marsh's leaving the church.

For those alive at the time there was sufficient evidence of his action to excommunicate him. And yet those who weren't there presume to know all the facts, which clearly have not been detailed. There is no doubt that some members of the church were inciting hostility, but that does not excuse a church leader from further inciting hostility against the church.

And no one has claimed that the milk strippings were the cause of Marsh leaving the church.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...