167 replies to this topic

[mfbukowski]

Bernard Gui, on 27 May 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

Have you attended an LDS testimony meeting?  That is our public venue for sharing sacred experiences and miracles.

Bernard

You are right.  THAT is where we share- but with our own community.  Again, it is that notion (correct) that others will not understand.

[mfbukowski]

Bernard Gui, on 27 May 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:

Mr. Bowman:
We obviously do not share the same understanding about what is sacred. We have repeatedly told you what we consider to be sacred, but you seem not to be able to comprehend.  Your reluctance to define your side makes it impossible to communicate with you on this issue.

We have asked you several times on this thread and others whether there is anything sacred to you. Apparently, either the answer is no, or you don't want to talk about them.

What is your reaction to the abuse of the missionaries in my great uncle's mission in the Southern states in the late 1800s? Strangers were stopped and their shirts were ripped open. If they were wearing temple garments, they were severly beaten. The garments are kept covered because they are sacred and are held close to the body as a constant reminder of holy covenants. Would you agree the garments and what they symbolize were desecrated?

How does that differ from what you do?

Bernard

Those of a similar ilk deliberately aimed a pickup truck at my son and his companion while they were walking along a road in Mississippi after they recognized them as missionaries- grazing my son, breaking the mirror off the truck, but by the grace of God he was only bruised up a bit.

There is a reason we do not share what is sacred to us.

Edited by mfbukowski, 27 May 2011 - 09:59 PM.

[Libs]

CV75, on 27 May 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

This is where the exposé approach to discredit religions falls far short of the glory.

The darker things are, the less they need to be exposed, or the less light is required to expose them. The light of Christ does the job just fine without that kind of misplaced effort on the part of professed followers of Jesus. Those who have ears to hear will hear the voice of the Shepherd and see things in their proper light.

For this reason, the more the effort placed on exposing something, the less intrinsic and less powerful is the light behind that effort, and the brighter the object of its effort to expose an imagined darkness.

The light of the Gospel is what needs to be revealed by the true followers of Christ. This is what casts out the darkness. Those who are incapable and unauthorized by Christ to do this right will attempt to cast out the darkness by revealing its darkness. This approach only comes from and creates another kind of darkness.

Rather Alma 37:27-32 is the approach taken by the Lord’s true servants.

Yes, I agree.  Well said.

[bookofmormontruth]

mfbukowski, on 27 May 2011 - 09:58 PM, said:

Those of a similar ilk deliberately aimed a pickup truck at my son and his companion while they were walking along a road in Mississippi after they recognized them as missionaries- grazing my son, breaking the mirror off the truck, but by the grace of God he was only bruised up a bit.

There is a reason we do not share what is sacred to us.

Ah yes, the good old South!

I absolutely loved the wonderful people and thoroughly enjoyed my missionary experiences in the (Mississippi/Alabama) areas. Even the doors being slammed, being spit in the face a few times, ran off the road on our bikes, mocked for wearing sacred garments (From a local Minister in fact), rocks/bottles/drinks thrown at us, tires slashed, car keyed, dogs "released" on us and hearing the most vile words said to us. I even loved writing home a "proud" letter to my understandably "freaked out" mom about my first week out as a "greenie" and having a gun pointed at our heads for being  "Mormon missionaries". Luckily for us, we played basketball every week with the local police department and had one of the officers nick-named "Robo-Cop" make sure that the angry gentleman would never threaten our iives again.

Comes with the territory I guess, which is another thing added to the list that the world wouldn't understand. Not sure why though the world doesn't understand that we are a little cautious about what we "share". And you know what a lack of understanding leads to......(fill in the blank).

[alter idem]

Rob Bowman, on 27 May 2011 - 01:39 PM, said:

Mola,

You wrote:



Okay, let's go with the simpler question. Are all things that are "sacred" to be kept secret, or not?

No, not all, but I'd say it's better to ere on the side of caution when it comes to things we believe are sacred.

Through scripture we are told there are some things which the Lord deems 'sacred' and he counsels members to withhold sacred things at times.  The Lord told the early saints;

D&C 63:64
"Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit; and in this there is no condemnation,.."

So, there is justification in withholding or being careful about what we share. Does that mean that every time someone refuses to discuss something because it's 'too sacred' they are being sincere?  I doubt it. But, just because some use that as justification not to discuss something doesn't mean that every time it is used as a reason to end a discussion or not share something, it is a cop out.

The Lord does consider it a serious offense to mock what is sacred. I believe that it is our responsibility to also protect others by not sharing things they are not ready to hear and will very likely mock. I think we have an obligation to consider carefully what we share on a public message board where anyone can read what is posted.

One of the things the Nephites were condemned for was "..making a mock of that which was sacred, denying the spirit of prophecy, and of revelation.."(Hel. 4:12) and there are other examples of this being specifically mentioned. I don't think it's something to be taken lightly.

Taking the name of the Lord in vain is 'making a mock of that which is sacred' and people do it all the time, yet this doesn't take away the condemnation or seriousness of it. Though the world may scoff or ignore it, it is clearly something the Lord feels strongly about.

[ERayR]

Rob Bowman, on 27 May 2011 - 01:39 PM, said:

Mola,

You wrote:



Okay, let's go with the simpler question. Are all things that are "sacred" to be kept secret, or not?

Kept sacred is a better way of putting it.  They are not kept secret because anybody who prepares to receive can do so.

[alter idem]

mfbukowski, on 27 May 2011 - 11:37 AM, said:

You know, I was just thinking that it seems that no one other than LDS have this sense of the "sacred".

Just from that, I wonder if we can take that as evidence that our experiences really ARE different from other religions.

I think you are looking too narrowly to come up with a position like this.  I know that Muslims feel very strongly about their own sacred sites, rituals, prophets, beliefs, traditions. I expect that Buddhists, FLDS, Greek Orthodox...many other religions feel strongly about things within their religions. Besides there are a lot of sects out to be making such generalizations.

Quote

If no one else has that experience, how am I supposed to conclude anything else?  We have often described the testimony experience as a "6th sense"- analogies with a blind man not understanding color or a deaf person not understanding music, abound.

I will go ahead and say it even if it is not PC

Suppose we really ARE the elect, and no one else even HAS that 6th sense?

Why can't they understand this then?  Why the continuing questions from every religion on earth including atheists and agnostics?  And yet we understand each other- while others don't have a clue what we are talking about.

What's up with that?

This thread just got me thinking- why don't they get it?

I don't think we have a 'sixth sense' about what is sacred because we are LDS. I think humans will have a 'sixth sense' about the sacredness of things if they are spiritually in tune with their creator and not carnally minded--in other words, caught up in the cares of the world or more worldly and light minded.

Edited by alter idem, 28 May 2011 - 07:37 AM.

[ERayR]

Rob Bowman, on 27 May 2011 - 01:39 PM, said:

Mola,

You wrote:



Okay, let's go with the simpler question. Are all things that are "sacred" to be kept secret, or not?

You obviously have no understanding of "sacred".

[alter idem]

3DOP, on 27 May 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

I don't know who mocks or ridicules a miracle. I don't mind if Mormons say that miracles aren't as prevalent as in the Apostolic Age. But if Latter-day Apostles were doing public miracles like those in the New Testament, I would be willing to pray about the Book of Mormon. Not now. I believe in public miracles that are well documented for the sake of people of good will towards the Catholic faith. But I don't get why LDS say they have just as many miracles now as ever, but because they don't want to be ridiculed, they won't talk about it or bring forth evidence. The book of Acts is full of miracles. It seems like the Latter-day Church should be similar. I think the Catholic Church is similar. Nobody ridicules the Catholic Church for the modern miracles at Lourdes for instance, documented by non-Catholic doctors.

It seems like there is a real need, considering that nobody who isn't LDS, believes that LDS Apostles see Jesus, receive revelations, or work miracles, that the LDS Apostles would show themselves to be something like the original Apostles. If you really do miracles, who can mock you, and who cares? The bad guys ignore miracles and make fun of the good or beautiful. And that is why in the New Testament, there wasn't anybody claiming that this or that miracle was too sacred to share with the infidels. Pearls before swine isn't about hiding miracles:  ---Mt. 7:6

The warning against pearls before swine and holiness to dogs is more about beautiful practices and good teachings than miracles. I understand not talking about the Temple. But share your miracles. I don't think anybody here wants to say I am a dog or a swine anyway just because I am non-LDS. What about each other? The Gospel says that you don't share your precious spiritual experiences with those who are malicious. It appears to me that you all just say that these wonderful things happen, but you can't share them with us non-LDS because we are dogs and swine who will allegedly mock you. But that means you talk about these wonderful things among yourselves at least? Right?

I have a friend that often rides with me to Mass. Among other spiritual experience not too sacred to share, he has the wildest stories about how St. Anthony finds things for him. Amazing stories. I make the coffee most Sunday mornings at our parish. A couple years ago, a good parishioner gave us this coffee maker that is really big, and it saves a bunch of time because I can make all the coffee for both Masses in one pot. So I come in one Sunday morning, and I can't find the lid. I look everywhere. Every cupboard. Every nook and cranny in the kitchen. So my buddy, Michael, who besides being my friend, sometimes irritates me with his multitudinous spiritual experiences that I don't have. So he hears me complaining to my wife after the Second Mass that I had to use several coffee makers that day because one of the "faithful" lost the lid for me. Before I know it, this "nutball" is on his knees saying "Let's pray on it." I DIDN"T want to pray. I wanted to be angry at the faithful. I already looked. So he prays and asks St. Anthony to find the lid and he goes straight to this cupboard two seconds after prayer and produces the stinking lid. I was part mad but I was happy to have the stupid lid. It WAS a miracle!

It's kind of funny. A few days later it was 2 or 2:30 AM and I had to go to work. I drive a truck and can't drive without my glasses. Where were they? I looked everywhere. Its getting late. Of course I remember Michael. Reluctantly. I didn't just pray direct to this St. Anthony. I didn't have the faith for it. I prayed to the "St. Anthony that Michael prays to". I even knelt down like Michael does. And I looked down on the hearth, and there were my glasses. Were they there before? I'm not sure. I sure thought I looked! Such stories only go so far. It seems trivial on the one hand...but on the other...I KNOW I looked for the coffee lid and my glasses in the same places that they were found immediately after praying. I don't think you're dogs and swine. I'll tell you that miracles are real. And this is just my personal experience in the last few weeks. Do you want modern healings of the blind, Eucharistic miracles, resurrections from the dead? They are documented. They aren't mocked by dogs or swine. Dogs and swine mock the priesthood and chastity. Malicious people ignore miracles. I want Latter-day Saints to know that in my Catholic and Apostolic faith the age of miracles is NOW. I don't quite get why you can't even talk about miraculous events among yourselves and other people of good will towards your faith.

3DOP

First, there are many, many out there who mock and ridicule miracles. Go visit any number of ex-mormon websites and you'll see plenty of examples. I think LDS are more sensitive to the ridicule of ex-believers and atheists, not other religions (except maybe a couple evangelical groups).

I think if you want to hear Church leaders tell of miracles, listen to General Conference, read the Ensign. You'll find numerous examples of miracles. You'll read of healings, divine intervention, guidance by the spirit, revelation, spiritual manifestations and visitations--all kinds of modern day miracles.

The scriptures say that miracles, or the manifestation of the gifts of the spirit come through faith in Christ. I believe that this means all can enjoy miracles in their lives, not just LDS. And I think that we can share and be spiritually edified by each other's miracles and not share the same religious faith.

However, as an LDS person, I might not share a spiritual experience I had in the Temple while doing Temple work with a person of another faith if I thought they would not appreciate hearing it or might discount something that was very sacred and precious to me. It's not a matter of thinking the other person doesn't deserve to hear it or they aren't 'spritual enough' or special--I just can recognize that to them, hearing about something that helps strengthen my faith in Temple work--something they don't believe in, may only bring confusion and anger to my listener, who is a non-believer. In other words, sharing something that the listener is not ready to receive. I hope this helps you understand why some things may be withheld from a friend who doesn't share their faith.

And, I would point out that we DO share miraculous events with each other, but as I stated in an earlier post, because of the Lord's admonishment, LDS need to consider how it is received--so members probably will be careful about what they share and how they share it on a public message board, a televised program or a large church meeting.

[Alla]

TO ROB BOWMAN

It was said already that Jesus asked those whom He healed not to tell anybody. WHY? Why would He say that?
It was said that every Sunday we hear testimonies about miracles. Last Sunday a sister gave a talk. She said that she had very serious illness and she needed a treatment/ something close to chemotherapy. She asked for priesthood blessing and she had faith that she will be healed. Next day she went to a doctor and doctor told her that she doesn't have this illness anymore. He told her that there are only 20% of people with this illness that can be cured without any medication(A MIRACLE!!!). Doctor told her that she is this 20% -
A MIRACLE!!!!
She shared with everybody on Sacrament meeting. I have stories to tell, too. But 2 times I shared them with those who are not of my faith and who don't like mormonism very much. They told me that I probably have to go to a docotor.
My brothers and sisters in LDS faith  with whom I shared my experiences believed me.

Prophet Joseph Smith shared his experiences because he had to. Lord told him to do that. But I BELIEVE that there were experineces which he NEVER shared with ALL saints, but only with some.
I believe that our other Prophets and Apostles have those experiences too, but they are more PERSONAL revelations, that is WHY they don't share detailes.  BUT our Prophets always testify to us that they KNOW that Jesus ir real and He is Head of THIS Church, and NOT any other church. When they testify that they KNOW it, Spirit TESTIFIES TO ME that it is because they SAW Him and/or HEARD His voice.
My very first bishop shared with me his experience. He said he HEARD Jesus's voice. Not in his head but very clear outside of his head. Only I will not tell you what he heard. IT IS A SECRET from YOU. You don't need to know that. You don't have faith to KNOW THIS.

I will share one more time SOME of my experiences with someone who criticize my religion. I was an atheist, REAL atheist, not agnostic. But one day I saw Him(His face) on one icon. I was just standing and staring at it (being an atheist) and suddenly I KNEW that He is real, He exists. And when I had this strong knowledge, I started to feel something that I never felt before in my life. I was filled with some kind of fire, I felt happy, very very happy from this REVELATION. And I told Him:"I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU". I LOVED HIM. I didn't know that believers love God. I can not describe this love. I love Him now but not like at that moment. That was something unreal to me. So, miracle happened, atheist became a believer in a second or so.
When I became an LDS an angel appeared to me and he answered to one important (TO ME) question. I prayed to God many times. I believed in Him but it was hard for me to believe that there is life after death(I was an athesit after all). I mean I believed but those doubts were in my head all the time. So, Father gave me a revelation. He sent a beautiful angel( it  was also a very special angel, but I will not tell you why he was special- that is A SECRET, not for YOU to know). He told me that there is life after death. When he told me that I fell on my knees and I thanked Lord that He told us truth that there is reserruction and eternal life. When I finished my prayer angel was gone, beautiful SPECIAL angel.
I KNOW thast there is God. I KNOW that there is life after death. I mean I believe that angel didn't lie to me. But I DO KNOW that angels are real.

I believe that in 1st century people didn't share with ANYBODY their experiences. I believe that Apostles of 1st century shared with everybody some of thier experiences, but NOT all of them

I say all this IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST. Amen.

Edited by Alla, 28 May 2011 - 09:45 AM.

[mfbukowski]

alter idem, on 28 May 2011 - 07:33 AM, said:

I think you are looking too narrowly to come up with a position like this.  I know that Muslims feel very strongly about their own sacred sites, rituals, prophets, beliefs, traditions. I expect that Buddhists, FLDS, Greek Orthodox...many other religions feel strongly about things within their religions. Besides there are a lot of sects out to be making such generalizations.

I don't think we have a 'sixth sense' about what is sacred because we are LDS. I think humans will have a 'sixth sense' about the sacredness of things if they are spiritually in tune with their creator and not carnally minded--in other words, caught up in the cares of the world or more worldly and light minded.

Yes, I agree actually- I was just throwing the idea out there-  I was thinking it was sociologically interesting, but you are right.  Bowman mentioned a discussion of the anthropology of this on another thread, and he also was right.

But there seems to be a huge segment of Christianity which has lost this sense.  It's too bad.  I think that's what I was momentarily fixating on which made me far overstate the case.

[ERMD]

I wonder why we don't have a transcript of the conversation between Christ, Moses, and Elijah that occured on the Mount of Transfiguration.

I wonder why we don't have a record of the teachings of Christ to his Apostles after his resurrection and before the ascension.

Are these things not important?  Are they "optional" information?

[mfbukowski]

ERMD, on 28 May 2011 - 11:11 AM, said:

I wonder why we don't have a transcript of the conversation between Christ, Moses, and Elijah that occured on the Mount of Transfiguration.

I wonder why we don't have a record of the teachings of Christ to his Apostles after his resurrection and before the ascension.

Are these things not important?  Are they "optional" information?

Hey man, what's your problem?  Don't you know everything about God is in the Bible?  

[ERMD]

mfbukowski, on 28 May 2011 - 11:18 AM, said:

Hey man, what's your problem?  Don't you know everything about God is in the Bible?  

Sorry.

I'll stick my head back into my literalist sand.

[David T]

I think the question being asked is: Where is the line between what is acknowledged as sacred-and-fit-for-public-knowledge-and-presentation (Scriptures, Baptism, Confirmation Blessings, Baby Blessings, Sacrament, certain testimonies), and sacred-but-not-fit-for-public (Visions of Christ, certain testimonies, everything that happens in the temples, garments, etc).

Are there differing levels of Sacred? Are there different categories of Sacred? Does the level of strangeness-in-the-eyes-of-the-world designate what we don't talk about? Is something that is more likely to be mocked considered sacred-but-not-fit-for-public, where something considered more  'mainline' (such as baptism, sacrament, every day life testimony experiences, etc) would be sacred-and-fit-for-public-knowledge?

I think it's a valid concept to explore. I think we as Mormons can get to used to the word 'Sacred' as a defense, that we're not really sure ourselves what it means anymore, and how to strictly define it. There are plenty of sacred things we talk about and discuss, and proclaim publicly.

[David T]

I think the question being asked is: Where is the line between what is acknowledged as sacred-and-fit-for-public-knowledge-and-presentation (Scriptures, Baptism, Confirmation Blessings, Baby Blessings, Sacrament, certain testimonies), and sacred-but-not-fit-for-public (Visions of Christ, certain testimonies, everything that happens in the temples, garments, etc).

Are there differing levels of Sacred? Are there different categories of Sacred? Does the level of strangeness-in-the-eyes-of-the-world designate what we don't talk about? Is something that is more likely to be mocked considered sacred-but-not-fit-for-public, where something considered more  'mainline' (such as baptism, sacrament, every day life testimony experiences, etc) would be sacred-and-fit-for-public-knowledge?

I think it's a valid concept to explore. I think we as Mormons can get to used to the word 'Sacred' as a defense, that we're not really sure ourselves what it means anymore, and how to strictly define it. There are plenty of sacred things we talk about and discuss, and proclaim publicly.

[zerinus]

nackhadlow, on 28 May 2011 - 01:59 PM, said:

I think the question being asked is: Where is the line between what is acknowledged as sacred-and-fit-for-public-knowledge-and-presentation (Scriptures, Baptism, Confirmation Blessings, Baby Blessings, Sacrament, certain testimonies), and sacred-but-not-fit-for-public (Visions of Christ, certain testimonies, everything that happens in the temples, garments, etc).

Are there differing levels of Sacred? Are there different categories of Sacred? Does the level of strangeness-in-the-eyes-of-the-world designate what we don't talk about? Is something that is more likely to be mocked considered sacred-but-not-fit-for-public, where something considered more  'mainline' (such as baptism, sacrament, every day life testimony experiences, etc) would be sacred-and-fit-for-public-knowledge?

I think it's a valid concept to explore. I think we as Mormons can get to used to the word 'Sacred' as a defense, that we're not really sure ourselves what it means anymore, and how to strictly define it. There are plenty of sacred things we talk about and discuss, and proclaim publicly.

D&C 63:

64 Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit; and in this there is no condemnation, and ye receive the Spirit through prayer; wherefore, without this there remaineth condemnation.

[David T]

zerinus, on 28 May 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

D&C 63:

64 Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit; and in this there is no condemnation, and ye receive the Spirit through prayer; wherefore, without this there remaineth condemnation.

Care to give your interpretation of that on the specific things I mentioned, instead of just a drive-by?

[Jeff K.]

bookofmormontruth, on 27 May 2011 - 10:37 PM, said:

Ah yes, the good old South!

I absolutely loved the wonderful people and thoroughly enjoyed my missionary experiences in the (Mississippi/Alabama) areas. Even the doors being slammed, being spit in the face a few times, ran off the road on our bikes, mocked for wearing sacred garments (From a local Minister in fact), rocks/bottles/drinks thrown at us, tires slashed, car keyed, dogs "released" on us and hearing the most vile words said to us. I even loved writing home a "proud" letter to my understandably "freaked out" mom about my first week out as a "greenie" and having a gun pointed at our heads for being  "Mormon missionaries". Luckily for us, we played basketball every week with the local police department and had one of the officers nick-named "Robo-Cop" make sure that the angry gentleman would never threaten our iives again.

Comes with the territory I guess, which is another thing added to the list that the world wouldn't understand. Not sure why though the world doesn't understand that we are a little cautious about what we "share". And you know what a lack of understanding leads to......(fill in the blank).

I appreciate that.  It was people like you that introduced a young man to the gospel and helped him understand Christ.  The South was never an easy place for missionaries to work.  But for people like me in Virginia, who were taught by people like you, that effort was a wonderful gift for us.

[mfbukowski]

Jeff K., on 28 May 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

I appreciate that.  It was people like you that introduced a young man to the gospel and helped him understand Christ.  The South was never an easy place for missionaries to work.  But for people like me in Virginia, who were taught by people like you, that effort was a wonderful gift for us.

We seem to have some kind of affinity for the South- hence my interest in Evangelical theology.  My daughter is now in So Carolina on her mission and doing well with several baptisms- and she has not been out that long.

My son did well also despite the drinks thrown and all the other adventures he endured, it seems that my daughter has not had nearly as many adverse experiences as my son did.

The fact that he is 6'4" possibly intimidated some, though he has a gentle disposition- and the "Southern gentleman" thing I think keeps some of the rowdies away from my daughter.