In the thread about the reason for keeping temple rituals secret, various Mormons asserted that ritual secrecy is a widespread phenomenon found in other religions, recognized by anthropologists, and that LDS temple secrets fall into this same category. Do you now disagree with that line of reasoning?
Maybe for starters. If you want to be taken as "sincere" with your questions and have some resemblance of respect for those who take the things of G-d as sacred.
It would probably be a good idea on a "Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board" to stop referring to the sacredness of the Lord's Temple to "LDS temple secrets".
bookofmormontruth youtubebookofmormontruth "If the Church were not true, our enemies would be bored rather than threatened, and acquiescent rather than anxious. Hell is moved only when things move Heavenward."Elder Neal A. Maxwell
And yet we understand each other- while others don't have a clue what we are talking about.
What's up with that?
Amen
For they were set to be a light unto the world, and to be saviors of men. (D&C 103:9)
English is my second language. Sorry for mistakes. I know I make them.
So, what should I think about those Mormons who criticized me for not understanding that the temple rituals are secret because they are sacred rituals and not merely because they are "sacred" in a broader sense? Were they wrong? Or were these Mormons wrong to appeal to the "sacred" nature of various non-ritual experiences (visions of Jesus, personal testimonies of the Book of Mormon's truth, miracles of healing, etc.)? Is it possible that Mormons too easily appeal to sacredness to rationalize lack of information on a wide variety of issues?
Matt 7:6 - Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. - Jesus
Especially when they have publicly established their porcine or canine proclivity for attacking their benefactors.
Jesus, through Joseph Smith, explained this a little further for His followers - "And the mysteries of the kingdom [i.e., the knowledge of God, revelations, ordinances, and so forth] ye shall keep within yourselves; for it is not meet to give that which is holy unto the dogs; neither cast ye your pearls unto swine, lest they trample them under their feet."
If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose my beliefs are true ... and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. - J. B. S. Haldane
and my being told, also by Mormons in this forum, that various non-ritual matters are not discussed publicly because they are too sacred.
I can discuss with you non-ritual matters. What would you like to know? And one more question - WHY do you want to know?
For they were set to be a light unto the world, and to be saviors of men. (D&C 103:9)
English is my second language. Sorry for mistakes. I know I make them.
You know, I was just thinking that it seems that no one other than LDS have this sense of the "sacred".
Just from that, I wonder if we can take that as evidence that our experiences really ARE different from other religions.
If no one else has that experience, how am I supposed to conclude anything else? We have often described the testimony experience as a "6th sense"- analogies with a blind man not understanding color or a deaf person not understanding music, abound.
I will go ahead and say it even if it is not PC
Suppose we really ARE the elect, and no one else even HAS that 6th sense?
Why can't they understand this then? Why the continuing questions from every religion on earth including atheists and agnostics? And yet we understand each other- while others don't have a clue what we are talking about.
What's up with that?
This thread just got me thinking- why don't they get it?
Hear! Hear!
With the same "non PC" reasoning. That 6th sense is the gift of the Holy Ghost hence why Joseph Smith was correct - when he was asked what sets us apart from the world, he replied that it was the Holy Ghost. (can't remember the quote, anyone?)
bookofmormontruth youtubebookofmormontruth "If the Church were not true, our enemies would be bored rather than threatened, and acquiescent rather than anxious. Hell is moved only when things move Heavenward."Elder Neal A. Maxwell
Most members of the Church hold very sacred their experiences within the Temple. Those who come out of the LDS faith discard the sacredness to make public the rituals that go on. The problem with this is that when St. Cyril of Jerusalem described the Baptismal rite (Washing and Anointing), it was a great mystery and it was very sacred. This rite was done in secret as to being for the person and the person only. Here, they were to denounce Satan outside the vestibule of the Baptistry (outer chambers) and then proclaim The Father Son and Holy Spirit as part of their faith confession.
Things I personally hold sacred that I will never publicize because the world just does not need to know those things.
Personal prayers and how I communicate with my Heavenly Father. Most members of the Church agree that such prayers are very personal and very sacred to them.
Patriartichal Blessings are personal scriptural revelations to the individual alone and not to be shared with everyone.
Family prayers, the things my family pray about, issues we are facing, and the struggles we are enduring is not something that needs public audience.
Personal revelation in order to fulfill callings within the Church and as a Father and Husband need not a public audience.
If you disagree that these should not be held sacred, then I would like you to publish your most intimate prayers to Heavenly Father first.
It's not that non-LDS don't have a "sense of the sacred". It's just that many don't believe the LDS Temple is sacred. Just the opposite, in the case of many anti-Mormons. And I think they are afraid if they show respect for members who believe it's sacred, they would be encouraging them in a very wrong belief.
It's not that non-LDS don't have a "sense of the sacred". It's just that many don't believe the LDS Temple is sacred. Just the opposite, in the case of many anti-Mormons. And I think they are afraid if they show respect for members who believe it's sacred, they would be encouraging them in a very wrong belief.
Libs,
If Jesus Christ himself appeared to you while you were praying and he said to you that your sins are forgiven and that the LDS Church is true. I mean really phyiscally appeared to you.
Would this event be Sacred? Would you publish to the world that you personally say the Resurrected Christ, or would you keep that part secret and sacred so that people would not mock and ridicule you?
SeattleGhostWriter, on 27 May 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:
Libs,
If Jesus Christ himself appeared to you while you were praying and he said to you that your sins are forgiven and that the LDS Church is true. I mean really phyiscally appeared to you.
Would this event be Sacred? Would you publish to the world that you personally say the Resurrected Christ, or would you keep that part secret and sacred so that people would not mock and ridicule you?
It is a very honest direct question.
I would like to answer this question, too. I would tell others about this experience ONLY IF the Lord commanded me to do this.
Otherwise, only few would know about this.
For they were set to be a light unto the world, and to be saviors of men. (D&C 103:9)
English is my second language. Sorry for mistakes. I know I make them.
Joseph Smith revealed what he did to the world to move the church forward and to establish the nature of God and Heaven. Otherwise he was very careful who he shared experiences with. The fact that others may have taken those experiences and talked about them is a different matter and one which often brought persecution on the church.
I have seen personal experiences some have shared here mocked and denied as coming from God. So why would I want to share anything? I have told classes I taught or individuals I know certain experiences in the context of a discussion and when moved on to do so. Otherwise they remain in my own store of personal testimony building experiences.
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:27 PM
Bill,
You didn't address the question.
Bill Hamblin, on 27 May 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:
Matt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
2Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:28 PM
Mola,
You wrote:
Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 27 May 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I explained in detail what I'm talking about in the first post. Are you saying you didn't understand the question or that you don't think posters in this forum have made the statements I mentioned?
On the subject of the temple, we hold temple prep classes which are a guide to first timers on what to expect. The rituals themselves are not discussed with good reason. I just went this morning and was struck with the solemn nature of not discussing certain things and how I would not want to be in the shoes of one who does reveal such things they covenant with God not to reveal.
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:30 PM
BOMT,
You wrote:
bookofmormontruth, on 27 May 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:
Maybe for starters. If you want to be taken as "sincere" with your questions and have some resemblance of respect for those who take the things of G-d as sacred.
It would probably be a good idea on a "Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board" to stop referring to the sacredness of the Lord's Temple to "LDS temple secrets".
Just to let you know, I'm not going to bother with people who keep questioning or challenging my sincerity, especially for trivial reasons.
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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:34 PM
Alla,
You wrote:
Alla, on 27 May 2011 - 12:31 PM, said:
I can discuss with you non-ritual matters. What would you like to know? And one more question - WHY do you want to know?
Well, for example, I would like to know why Joseph Smith gave a detailed description of his experience of seeing the risen Jesus, but virtually no LDS apostles or prophets since then have reported such experiences. And I want to know because this seems to be a discrepancy worth examining. One explanation I have been given is that the LDS apostles have had such experiences but don't talk about them because they are "too sacred." But that didn't stop Joseph Smith from telling about his experience, so I don't buy that explanation (it would imply that their experience was more sacred than Joseph's, for one thing!). How about you?
I explained in detail what I'm talking about in the first post. Are you saying you didn't understand the question or that you don't think posters in this forum have made the statements I mentioned?
I don't understand what you were saying in the first post.
"Mola Ram.... Mola Ram.... Mola Ram Suda Ram. Mola Ram.... Mola Ram.... Mola Ram Suda Ram." Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
Dogs have more in common with mammals than they have in common with wolves.
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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:36 PM
SGW,
You wrote:
SeattleGhostWriter, on 27 May 2011 - 12:42 PM, said:
Let me give you a different answer.... Things I personally hold sacred that I will never publicize because the world just does not need to know those things. Personal prayers and how I communicate with my Heavenly Father. Most members of the Church agree that such prayers are very personal and very sacred to them....
None of this answers my question. Here, I'll make it even easier. Are all things that are sacred to be kept secret, or not?
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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:38 PM
SGW,
You wrote:
SeattleGhostWriter, on 27 May 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:
Libs,
If Jesus Christ himself appeared to you while you were praying and he said to you that your sins are forgiven and that the LDS Church is true. I mean really phyiscally appeared to you.
Would this event be Sacred? Would you publish to the world that you personally say the Resurrected Christ, or would you keep that part secret and sacred so that people would not mock and ridicule you?
It is a very honest direct question.
Joseph Smith told about his experience seeing Jesus. Was he wrong to do so?
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Rob Bowman, on 27 May 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:
