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consiglieri

Racism In The L.D.S. Church

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President Kimball took a huge stride in eradictating the charge of racism against the LDS Church when he received the revelation in 1978 that all worthy males (blacks included) could receive the priesthood.

I remember being in church in the 1970's and frequently hearing counsel from church leaders that LDS should not marry interracially.

This instruction seemed to have petered out and I cannot recall having heard it in the last two decades.

I thought it was a thing of the past.

Then I saw lesson 31 in the current Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3, which quotes from President Kimball in 1976 the following:

“We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question” (“Marriage and Divorce,” in 1976 Devotional Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1977], p. 144).

http://lds.org/manual/aaronic-priesthood-manual-3/lesson-31-choosing-an-eternal-companion?lang=eng&query=divorce+marriage+kimball

I was surprised to find this teaching I thought had been relegated to the dustbin of Mormon history is still alive and well and being taught to our young men today.

More surprising is the fact this quote has been edited to remove language indicating this advice was given to ensure LDS would marry in the temple--in other words, "same racial background" actually appears to have meant to not wed blacks who were not allowed in the temples in 1976 when this speech was given. Here is the quote in its entirety:

We are grateful that this one survey reveals that about 90 percent of the temple marriages hold fast. Because of this, we recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question. In spite of the most favorable matings, the evil one still takes a monumental toll and is the cause for many broken homes and frustrated lives.

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6136

I have a number of concerns regarding this, among which are:

1. Why is the LDS Church still actively teaching its young men to avoid interracial marriages?

2. Why did the manual writers select this quote for inclusion in the current Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3?

3. Why was the original quote edited in such a way as to indicate it has ongoing application? (Not only is the first sentence entirely absent, the first clause of the second sentence has been removed with no indication of the deletion.)

4. Why haven't we completely left all this in the past where it belongs?

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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It's one thing to discourage a practice on the simple practical grounds of divorce avoidance (and interracial couples do have additional stresses, there's no denying it) and saying it's something G-d doesn't want. SWK taught no such thing and neither does the new Aaronic Priesthood Manual.

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And don't forget to stay on your sides of the tracks, too...

somewhat the same economic and social and educational background

(edit: I mean this a little tongue in cheek because I do think there is wisdom in marrying someone with whom you have a common culture - it just relieves much of the stresses that otherwise make marriage difficult.)

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And don't forget to stay on your sides of the tracks, too...

(edit: I mean this a little tongue in cheek because I do think there is wisdom in marrying someone with whom you have a common culture - it just relieves much of the stresses that otherwise make marriage difficult.)

I would think that, even were this so, the American culture should be sufficient commonality without playing the race card.

From the wrong side of the tracks,

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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I would think that, even were this so, the American culture should be sufficient commonality without playing the race card.

From the wrong side of the tracks,

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I agree and add that our community is increasingly global such that shared cultures cross national boundaries in many instances.

I didn't know you lived near me,

MnG

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I am surprised that you are still in that "racist" Church. rolleyes.gif

You wouldn't believe this, but the U.S. government (US Census Bureau) is also "racist" with their research "Interracial Marriage: Social Connection, Marital Conflict and Divorce" and look at these other blatant "racists" "But Will It Last?": Marital Instability Among Interracial and Same-Race Couples.

These were reported in August, 2000 and April, 2008 which I am absolutely astounded that they haven't "left the past where it belongs"! I am moving to Canada!!!!!!!

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President Kimball took a huge stride in eradictating the charge of racism against the LDS Church when he received the revelation in 1978 that all worthy males (blacks included) could receive the priesthood.

I remember being in church in the 1970's and frequently hearing counsel from church leaders that LDS should not marry interracially.

This instruction seemed to have petered out and I cannot recall having heard it in the last two decades.

I thought it was a thing of the past.

Then I saw lesson 31 in the current Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3, which quotes from President Kimball in 1976 the following:

http://lds.org/manua...arriage+kimball

I was surprised to find this teaching I thought had been relegated to the dustbin of Mormon history is still alive and well and being taught to our young men today.

More surprising is the fact this quote has been edited to remove language indicating this advice was given to ensure LDS would marry in the temple--in other words, "same racial background" actually appears to have meant to not wed blacks who were not allowed in the temples in 1976 when this speech was given. Here is the quote in its entirety:

http://speeches.byu....der.php?id=6136

I have a number of concerns regarding this, among which are:

1. Why is the LDS Church still actively teaching its young men to avoid interracial marriages?

I don't believe it is too much of a stretch to believe there could be sufficient cause to counsel against it. Do you question whether it is realistically possible to have sufficient cause?

2. Why did the manual writers select this quote for inclusion in the current Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3?

See above.

3. Why was the original quote edited in such a way as to indicate it has ongoing application? (Not only is the first sentence entirely absent, the first clause of the second sentence has been removed with no indication of the deletion.)

Because the belief is it might have ongoing application.

4. Why haven't we completely left all this in the past where it belongs?

Because it might not yet belong there. Remember, when speaking collectively a broad brush is often used giving the impression the speaker does not appreciate the fact that there are many who have not followed this counsel but who lead productive lives in the church.

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"We are grateful that this one survey reveals that about 90 percent of the temple marriages hold fast."

This is surely no longer true today, if it ever was. Mormon temple divorces in Utah at least are c. equal to the general divorce rate.

I have no idea why the modern Church would continue to teach this, other than an effort to correct the appalling divorce rate in temple marriages. If so, it seems to me a counterproductive approach; since the world at large is blending cultures and so-called races more and more....

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EbedWifeBeater.png

consiglieri,

I always enjoy those type of questions. It reveals so much about the one posing the question, does it not?

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"We are grateful that this one survey reveals that about 90 percent of the temple marriages hold fast."

This is surely no longer true today, if it ever was. Mormon temple divorces in Utah at least are c. equal to the general divorce rate.

I have no idea why the modern Church would continue to teach this, other than an effort to correct the appalling divorce rate in temple marriages. If so, it seems to me a counterproductive approach; since the world at large is blending cultures and so-called races more and more....

QB is quite ignorant, but in the event he is not, I'm willing to concede the point . . .

assuming QB can produce a source that supports his assertion.

And, yes, this means this is an official, Board Rules Certifiable, CFR.

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1. Why is the LDS Church still actively teaching its young men to avoid interracial marriages?

The reason is given in the quote. I personally have nothing intrinsically against interracial mairages, but the adivce is still relevant today. One of my missionary companions was the first, along with his brother, to serve out of Kenya. He found blacks socially in the US to be quite different and I believe the terms he used were uncouth and uncivilized to which he was refering to the ghetto blacks among which we served. He found absolutely nothing in common with them.

The social and cultural attitudes and differences still exist today and even Bill Cosby has been brave enough to speak out about some them. That is not to say there are not many opportunities for interracial couples to be compatible and for many blacks to have turned their backs on the ghetto lifestyle and mentality which is btw, completely incompatible with the gospel.

There is nothing racist in such counsel by any stretch of the intellectually honest imagination.

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I would be more concerned about how well you know your potential spouse rather then what racial background they hail from.

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...I always enjoy those type of questions. It reveals so much about the one posing the question, does it not?

ebeddoulos,

I agree that this thread implies that LDS church leadership before 1978 were racist.

The whole racism card is really an an "anti-white" card. The races may interbreed, but they are very different, and those who HATE the white race are the ones who have used the charge of "racism" in their hateful anti-white propaganda. It is dumb to talk in terms of their propaganda.

We should worry about what the Lord thinks, not what the world thinks.

Richard

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Sounds more like a caste-system then racism to me. Maybe that's why so many GA's are related- they don't "marry down"?

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I don't think race should be mentioned as a reason to avoid marrying someone. That is racist, whether you believe it can be justified or not. Blacks (all Americans of whatever race) have social stratas, and that is going to determine their "culture" more than anything. People do tend to marry within their own social strata, because those are the people they have the most contact with. But, social stratas (these days) have less to do with race, than in the past. All stratas are becoming much more racially diverse...which is a good thing. That's what we're striving for. So, we should, in that process, expect more racially diverse marriages.

I live in California and the culture here is very diverse and you see a lot of mixed race marriages. My oldest daughter is in a mixed race marriage. They have been together, very happily, for 20 years (and have two beautiful daughters). There were some slight differences in the cutures they came from, but my daughter says that made their relationship more interesting. Whether or not a marriage works, depends a lot on individual character and commitment. I just don't think race should be brought into the equation, in any way (in this day and age). My opinion.

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1. Why is the LDS Church still actively teaching its young men to avoid interracial marriages?

It may be good practical advice to address the unfortunate realities in many ares where the Church is expanding and will be expanding, where the instruction is probably further clarified to apply to rival ethnicity. At the same time, removing artificial barriers to brotherly love ("traditions of men") is taught as well, so that balances are struck in wisdom and in order.

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Libs:

More power to them, but the divorce stats for interracial marriages is not encouraging.

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The divorce stats for any marriage is not encouraging. 50/50

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I would think that, even were this so, the American culture should be sufficient commonality without playing the race card.

How many different places have you lived in the U.S? I've lived in many different parts of the country and the American culture is very diverse, sometimes to the point you feel like you're in a different country. I've also known blacks from the South and blacks from Europe and they can't even be compared culturally.

But we aren't even talking about black and white. There have also been a lot of problems with white and Asian when one comes from a different country or where the family's culture is still very much with their country of origin.

It's about what has already been mentioned: the fewer differences you have, especially when it involves culture, the greater your chances of a successful marriage whether in the temple or not.

I've seen successful racially mixed marriages but it's usually because they do have other things in common such as religion, education level, socio-economic background. And lest we forget there were many times in the Bible where the house of Israel was condemned for marrying outside their lineage and faith.

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ebeddoulos,

I agree that this thread implies that LDS church leadership before 1978 were racist.

The whole racism card is really an an "anti-white" card. The races may interbreed, but they are very different, and those who HATE the white race are the ones who have used the charge of "racism" in their hateful anti-white propaganda. It is dumb to talk in terms of their propaganda.

We should worry about what the Lord thinks, not what the world thinks.

Richard

What does the Lord think about this?

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I don't think race should be mentioned as a reason to avoid marrying someone. That is racist, whether you believe it can be justified or not

I don't see how that can be possible when there is no implication of inferiority based on skin color.

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I don't see how that can be possible when there is no implication of inferiority based on skin color.

There is that implication, if you are making a decision, whether or not to marry someone, based on race.

I understand that the decision should take into consideration commonalities between two people, but "race"/skin color, has nothing to do with whether or not two people will be compatible. Culture, social strata, religion, likes/dislikes, etc, should all be considered, when choosing a partner. Race is irrelevant. I can think of several people, of a race different from my own, that I am much more compatible with, than a few of my own race/skin color.

Race is a trait we are born with (like having a blue eyes or blonde hair). It's not relevant, as far a person's character or personality and whether or not they will be compatible with someone who has a different skin tone.

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Here is a scenario: You became mildly interested enough to pursue a person and let's say she/he was of similar age, let us say you are 32 and they are say 30? You are green and they are a mix of green and orange so yeah they have green stuff but there is also orange stuff in the social salad. In addition to this potentially celestially savoury situation let us say that you on a previous occasion married a green person but the situation turned a puke green and you washed it all away but now have a small green person now in your care, but the first green person in the scene became afterwards the green queen of mean. What is more let us pretend that the orange food background you were tolerant of eating it but not enough to stand in line to buy it at the store and be told to have a great day at 930pm?

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What does the Lord think about this?

Hi,

We do know from the scriptures that in the last days the Lord will restore the tribes of Israel. That means the Lord will identify who will be in these tribes, or who should be in these tribes.

How can these tribes remain unique if they immediately go about intermarrying other with the other tribes and races?

The LDS church was set up among the Gentiles and given the charge to prepare the world for this latter-day re-establishment of the tribes of Israel. That is clearly one of the reasons patriarchal blessings were given.

I believe from what is in the scriptures that the Lord wants diversity. Intermarriage between tribes and races leads to a great loss of diversity. I am not convinced He wants that.

I can agree that the Lord loves all people and races and provides salvation for all who come unto Him. But it is not clear that the Lord wants everyone that comes to him to intermarry with just anyone.

Richard

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