What'S On The Other Side

[Mudcat]

In the thread on First Cause elguanteloko posted this "Since you couldn't get the idea of an actual infinity not being able to exist" I must pose this question. If infinity can not exist then What is on the Other Side of infinity?

I don't know exactly what elguanteloko's position is. I don't think we agree on much, but I think in respect to the existence of an actual infinite in time he and I would fall into the same camp.

To answer, you can not get to the other side of infinity, if you are proposing that there are an infinite series of all events that actually do occur in time. If such is the case, "time" is inescapable. You can neither find a point of origin, for there is one that occured before that ad infinitum nor can there be an actual end point for the same reason, there is no Other Side of infinity as long as there is the assumption that time is a constant.

People will say something like, "There is an infinite number of numbers between 1 and 2." or point towards the notion that there is an infinite amount of space that exists between my bed and my potty.. though I have actually traversed this "infinite" space quite a bit. Seems the older I get the early I traverse it.

I think the concept of infinity runs in trouble when taken out of the mathematical sense and put into real life application. Math deals with abstract numbers. The number 1 nor the number 2 exist in time. They simply exist conceptually. We can say that there is infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, because there is.

However, when you try and place an actual infinite "inside" time, it doesn't work.

We can't say there is an infinite number of things that happened between 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock Central Time Zone yesterday. Because it wouldn't be true.

If there were an infinite number of thing that happened between 1 and 2 o'clock yesterday, we wouldn't have gotten to 2 o'clock... But the fact of the matter is we did get past it. At best, we can say a lot of things happened between 1 and 2 o'clock yesterday.

If we were to suggest that an infinite number of things did happen between 1 and 2 o'clock yesterday, then we could insert the Atonement of Christ into that. If there actually is an infinite number of things that occurred between 1 and 2 o'clock yesterday, Christ's atonement would be one of those things. But it isn't it the case.

You nor I can conceive of an infinite number or ideas within an hour. Nor are our collective efforts infinite, nor would be the collective efforts of all of us be so. All of humanity, couldn't even generate an infinite number of ideas in an hour.

Hopefully at this point, I have gotten at least one or two persons attention on the matter.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

The only way "infinity" can be ascertained is in the abstract sense with abstract concepts... numbers and so forth.

[ERayR]

I don't know exactly what elguanteloko's position is. I don't think we agree on much, but I think in respect to the existence of an actual infinite in time he and I would fall into the same camp.

To answer, you can not get to the other side of infinity, if you are proposing that there are an infinite series of all events that actually do occur in time. If such is the case, "time" is inescapable. You can neither find a point of origin, for there is one that occured before that ad infinitum nor can there be an actual end point for the same reason, there is no Other Side of infinity as long as there is the assumption that time is a constant.

People will say something like, "There is an infinite number of numbers between 1 and 2." or point towards the notion that there is an infinite amount of space that exists between my bed and my potty.. though I have actually traversed this "infinite" space quite a bit. Seems the older I get the early I traverse it.

I think the concept of infinity runs in trouble when taken out of the mathematical sense and put into real life application. Math deals with abstract numbers. The number 1 nor the number 2 exist in time. They simply exist conceptually. We can say that there is infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, because there is.

However, when you try and place an actual infinite "inside" time, it doesn't work.

We can't say there is an infinite number of things that happened between 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock Central Time Zone yesterday. Because it wouldn't be true.

If there were an infinite number of thing that happened between 1 and 2 o'clock yesterday, we wouldn't have gotten to 2 o'clock... But the fact of the matter is we did get past it. At best, we can say a lot of things happened between 1 and 2 o'clock yesterday.

If we were to suggest that an infinite number of things did happen between 1 and 2 o'clock yesterday, then we could insert the Atonement of Christ into that. If there actually is an infinite number of things that occurred between 1 and 2 o'clock yesterday, Christ's atonement would be one of those things. But it isn't it the case.

You nor I can conceive of an infinite number or ideas within an hour. Nor are our collective efforts infinite, nor would be the collective efforts of all of us be so. All of humanity, couldn't even generate an infinite number of ideas in an hour.

Hopefully at this point, I have gotten at least one or two persons attention on the matter.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

The only way "infinity" can be ascertained is in the abstract sense with abstract concepts... numbers and so forth.

Exactly. Infinite/eternal runs into problems when you start trying to measure it because how can you measure the immeasurable? If you beleive the scriptures God is eternal/infinite and according to LDS doctrine so is man. Now carry this to the question of first cause that was posited. Unless you break God's, and man's existence into measurable sections (pre-mortal, mortal, post-mortal etc., etc.) "first cause" becomes meaningless because it couldn't happen. There would always be something before.

We are assured by scripture that eternity/infinity is real, that there is no end so by definition it must extend backwards and have no beginning. Hebrews 7:3 speaking of Christ says he has neither beginning of days or end of years. In LDS theology that would extend to man also. There never was a time when they were not and there will never be a time when they are not, therefore as I have said before the concept of first cause for God or man is meaningless.

One could argue that they exist outside of time and space but that only begs the question of how do you get outside and if you did what would you find. Is that beyond infinity? That to me is an abstract concept that would pose more questions than it answered.

[Rob Osborn]

I would bet that even the God's cannot escape being outside of time. Time in essence is the sequence of events- events happening because of cause an effect. To be outside of time would be like saying that cause and effect has no meaning. I can see where time isn't measured to God because we use time to measure decay or age. But in his sense where he is immortal time would still exist only he wouldn't use it to measure his aging like we do.

Cause and effect is inescapable. One simply cannot be outside of the events that happen in sequence.

[Questing Beast]

I would bet that even the God's cannot escape being outside of time. Time in essence is the sequence of events- events happening because of cause an effect. To be outside of time would be like saying that cause and effect has no meaning. I can see where time isn't measured to God because we use time to measure decay or age. But in his sense where he is immortal time would still exist only he wouldn't use it to measure his aging like we do.

Cause and effect is inescapable. One simply cannot be outside of the events that happen in sequence.

Only the Cause of Existence In The First Place can be "outside" of space-time.

Which is why "God" is outside of space-time. "God" is the CAUSE of space-time. We might as well say "God" IS space-time, as well as Void: fecund creation and Nothing. All paradox. All Law. Every concept we can possibly conceive of. And "God" is infinitely more than the sum of all concepts of all sapient beings that ever exist within the infinitely expanding multiverse. Everything that emanates from "God" is contained within an apparent space-time of cause and effect. But to "God" it is all NOW....

[cdowis]

Only the Cause of Existence In The First Place can be "outside" of space-time.

Which is why "God" is outside of space-time. "God" is the CAUSE of space-time.

I remember a Bible scholar teaching this idea in a class. I'm sure that he was impressing everyone until I pointed out a tiny flaw.

When did God create time? How long ago.....has time existed from its creation.

Stupid question, but more specifically how can time be created, when there was no "before" it was created. Creation, even of time itself, assumes a before and after -- a specific point in which it was created. "Before" and it did not exist.

How is it possible, even for God, to exist outside time if he can create anything. There was a creation process, which demonstrates that time has always existed, and God Himself is co-existent with time.

The scholar was very silent, so perhaps you can help him out. I will be so bold to say that if you can prove that God is outside time, that He created time, that you can disprove a fundamental principle of Mormonism.

Good luck.

[ERayR]

Only the Cause of Existence In The First Place can be "outside" of space-time.

Which is why "God" is outside of space-time. "God" is the CAUSE of space-time. We might as well say "God" IS space-time, as well as Void: fecund creation and Nothing. All paradox. All Law. Every concept we can possibly conceive of. And "God" is infinitely more than the sum of all concepts of all sapient beings that ever exist within the infinitely expanding multiverse. Everything that emanates from "God" is contained within an apparent space-time of cause and effect. But to "God" it is all NOW....

One could argue that they exist outside of time and space but that only begs the question of how do you get outside and if you did what would you find. Is that beyond infinity? That to me is an abstract concept that would pose more questions than it answered.

Eternity/infinity has no beginning nor any end. To say that something is outside of time makes no sense. As cdowis has asked "When did God create time? How long ago.....has time existed from its creation".

[ELF1024]

One could argue that they exist outside of time and space but that only begs the question of how do you get outside and if you did what would you find. Is that beyond infinity? That to me is an abstract concept that would pose more questions than it answered.

Eternity/infinity has no beginning nor any end. To say that something is outside of time makes no sense. As cdowis has asked "When did God create time? How long ago.....has time existed from its creation".

Is there a way to demonstrate that time existed/or did not exist before the "big bang"? Movement of stellar bodies can illustrate time since the big bang, but what about before?

[Rob Osborn]

Only the Cause of Existence In The First Place can be "outside" of space-time.

Which is why "God" is outside of space-time. "God" is the CAUSE of space-time. We might as well say "God" IS space-time, as well as Void: fecund creation and Nothing. All paradox. All Law. Every concept we can possibly conceive of. And "God" is infinitely more than the sum of all concepts of all sapient beings that ever exist within the infinitely expanding multiverse. Everything that emanates from "God" is contained within an apparent space-time of cause and effect. But to "God" it is all NOW....

God is in the "now" in exactly the same fashion that we are in the "now". The only difference I believe is that God is immortal and we are not. We reckon time with a planet moving around a sun and he reckons time with it from the other perspective of how much we revolve in relation to what he does. As for all things being present with God, thatdoesn't mean that all the past, present and future events are happening simultaneously to him. Even He cannot escape the reality of only being in the present with the past in back of him and the future yet to happen. He may know of the past as if it were present and perhaps even know of certain future events but it doesn't mean that those events are present with him.

[Rivers]

In the thread on First Cause elguanteloko posted this "Since you couldn't get the idea of an actual infinity not being able to exist" I must pose this question. If infinity can not exist then What is on the Other Side of infinity?

If there was another side to infinity it wouldn't be infinity.

[asbestosman]

If there was another side to infinity it wouldn't be infinity.

In mathematics we have more transfinite numbers (infinities) on the other side of transfinite numbers--both cardinal and ordinal numbers.

[Mars]

There are an infinite number of numbers, but you can't really compare the infinite groups as ratios. There are precisely as many even numbers as there are numbers ending in '3' and precisely as many integers altogether. However, there are waaay more irrational numbers than rational numbers even though there are precisely as many numbers ending in '5' as there are rational numbers.

That was kind of my point... That defining 'infinity' isn't so easy and all it takes is a comparison of a few definitions to illustrate.

[asbestosman]

I remember a Bible scholar teaching this idea in a class. I'm sure that he was impressing everyone until I pointed out a tiny flaw.

When did God create time? How long ago.....has time existed from its creation.

Stupid question, but more specifically how can time be created, when there was no "before" it was created. Creation, even of time itself, assumes a before and after -- a specific point in which it was created. "Before" and it did not exist.

How is it possible, even for God, to exist outside time if he can create anything. There was a creation process, which demonstrates that time has always existed, and God Himself is co-existent with time.

The scholar probably doesn't have the needed mathematical / physics background to understand it. However, there's the Hawking-Hartle model.

In collaboration with Jim Hartle, Hawking developed a model in which the universe had no boundary in space-time, replacing the initial singularity of the classical Big Bang models with a region akin to the North Pole: one cannot travel north of the North Pole, as there is no boundary.

Now, the universe may not actually work that way, but it is one logical possibility.

[ERayR]

If there was another side to infinity it wouldn't be infinity.

You are absolutly right.

[asbestosman]

If we were to suggest that an infinite number of things did happen between 1 and 2 o'clock yesterday, then we could insert the Atonement of Christ into that. If there actually is an infinite number of things that occurred between 1 and 2 o'clock yesterday, Christ's atonement would be one of those things. But it isn't it the case.

That does not follow. An infinite number of things could happen, but none of them may be Christ's atonement just as there are many things which are not red--possibly an infinite amount.

[ERayR]

Is there a way to demonstrate that time existed/or did not exist before the "big bang"? Movement of stellar bodies can illustrate time since the big bang, but what about before?

You speak of the big bang as if it were an absolute given. I think the jury is still out on that. It seems it is but a working hypothosis that answers some questions but raises others. That being said what was before the big bang? Was there ever a point where there was nothing? I don't think there was. The eternal thing. Alway has been something before and always will be something after. Therefore no first cause per se. You can arbitrarily take a section of eternity and say from this point on this was the cause of that but then what caused this? Quite a conundrum to the finite mind.

I am a very simple man but it seems plain to me that if you can never find a point where there was nothing then it must have always been, in some form.

[asbestosman]

That was kind of my point... That defining 'infinity' isn't so easy and all it takes is a comparison of a few definitions to illustrate.

There is some ambiguity in infinity, but Cantor did a pretty good job of providing a solid basis for transfinite arithmetic. I was mostly correcting the notion of just under half the numbers being negative. That is simply not the case--at least not in the way that half of all integers from 1 to 10 are odd. However, that is correct in other contexts such as when we define the appropriate lebesgue measure on the number line instead of just trying to get a count (Cardinality) of them.