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AeonJ

Why Did Christ Give Commandments?

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Not everyone that says unto Jesus that he is their Lord will be saved. Jesus clearly says that you must keep the commandments. Matthew 7:21

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Not everyone that says unto Jesus that he is their Lord will be saved. Jesus clearly says that you must keep the commandments. Matthew 7:21

Just thought I'd throw this out there that Jesus was in favor of faith and works.

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What are you seeking as a discussion here?

He also said that those teaching and healing in his name, though not of his disciples, were to not be forbidden. Mark 9:40 "For whoever is not against us is for us."

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Not everyone that says unto Jesus that he is their Lord will be saved. Jesus clearly says that you must keep the commandments. Matthew 7:21

And of course not prfess only vocaly; but with your heart as well; and of course that leads to a desire to follow the commandments.:)

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Not everyone that says unto Jesus that he is their Lord will be saved. Jesus clearly says that you must keep the commandments. Matthew 7:21

It would be more correct to say you must try. In trying you will discover you can't. At that point you either fall into despair or you look around for help. When you find the help, the real process of the Gospel begins.

Then you can lean on He Who is Mighty to Save and He, the only One able to keep them, will through you, keep them with you.

The Law is the Schoolmaster unto Christ.

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He gave us commandments to guide us so that we would know to and be able to return to Him having achieved our purpose on earth. They are for our protection and blessing, not because He demands obedience. Indeed, the one thing He does not do is take our agency to choose from us. We must submit to Him on our own volition. (And that is why is is so funny to see we mortals fight so hard against following the commandments in the name of personal choice, automony, individualism.)

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If we truly love God and desire to please Him in all we do, it will be well with us.

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Men give commandments but I do not see where Jesus or God gave any commandments. Of course there are many men who say God spoke to them and hence they are Gods commandments but everything is at a minimum second hand.

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Men give commandments but I do not see where Jesus or God gave any commandments. Of course there are many men who say God spoke to them and hence they are Gods commandments but everything is at a minimum second hand.

And who do you think was talking when the floods came boy?

Maybe Japan should read the Old Testament :D

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And who do you think was talking when the floods came boy?

Who you callin' "boy"? aggressive.gif

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Not everyone that says unto Jesus that he is their Lord will be saved. Jesus clearly says that you must keep the commandments. Matthew 7:21

That Jesus requires that we follow the commandments does not by itself reveal the reason behind giving them. One of my favorite LDS doctrines, that men are that they might have joy, reveals in my opinion, the reason God created us and gives us instructions- it is for our own happiness. Many conservative LDS use this doctrine as justification or support for LDS commandments/standards themselves (taking the position, for example, that no matter how difficult or ridiculous it may seem to follow a purported commandment, we should follow it anyway because we can be sure that following it will make us happier). I take a different approach- that we can use the doctrine as a tool for helping us to determine whether a purported commandment is genuine. If, given the evidence and logic/reason available, it appears that a purported commandment would have a greater tendency to make people miserable rather than happy, we can take it as a strong indication, or at least a clue, that the purported commandment probably is not genuine.

If I ever subscribed to the idea that God gives us commandments for their own sake, it was long before my adult memory. The very idea is repulsive to me, and if it is the case, then it seems we have a very capricious and egotistical god.

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It is interesting that you choose Matthew 7:21 as your scripture for this thought, since no where does it say commandments in that verse.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

(Does anyone have any insights as to what the Greek will say here, especially at "will of my Father"?)

Reading this plainly without any other doctrinal (LDS) filter, this is actually a fascinating set of information from Jesus about how to be. He has set up "the will of the Father" as potentially opposing or at least distinct from, not only commandments, but actually works of service, which is confusing to even me.

So what is his point?

Let me make a few points of my own, since I'm not sure I can answer the mind of Jesus definitively yet, will need more study.

First of all, the structure of the theological argument AS ""faith v works"" is one of the falsest concept structures out there and we should not play into it. To determine the gospel or discussion of gospel in those precise terms is to not know the scripture nor to handle the scriptures on their own terms and causes unneccesary ecumenical division. And verse 21 has very little to nothing to do with ideas of faith or works, as such. This is a strong statement from me, but I can only give it as my opinion of course.

Secondly, this particular verse is located in the Sermon on the Mount. In my opinion, the Sermon on the Mount may be one of the most underappreciated and misunderstood set of passages. (Or maybe that's just me, ha ha). For example, I once thought that the Sermon on the Mount basically amounted to a collection of advice or commandments on how to act. Things Jesus wanted us to do. However, since then I have come to realize that the Sermon on the Mount is an ascension text (at least; not sure what else I'll find in there). In other words, or one consequence of this, is that one cannot read any of the verses singly and get sufficient gospel information. In the case of verse 21, I think at minimum one needs to read from verse 13 in order to start figuring out anything; and likely the Sermon can only be understood completely in its entirety (all three chapters). The Sermon on the Mount is about transformation not obedience, per se. Thus the information given has some specific order to it . . . where to begin, what stages to pass through, what some of the more difficult later stages are like to be experienced (which is where verse 21 it in, a later stage).

Thirdly, thus we can ask, what IS "the will of the Father"? How is it that casting out devils (as one example) could possibly not amount to fulfilling the will of the Father . . . what is beyond doing these types of service and spirituality? One thing you can see is that the information regarding doing the will of the Father is for those people who are already at the ability of casting out devils and prophesying . . . which is great . . . but Jesus just says, your progression isn't finished. (Corollary to this is that verse 21 probably doesn't apply to most of us here, then either, since we haven't gotten that far . . . we need to find ourselves earlier in the Sermon on the Mount.)

Fourthly, similarly, he said the will of the Father. This is not a negligible term and is the nuggest of the whole verse. Jesus did not say commandments, will of God, will of Christ, the doctrine of the Church . . . he said none of those terms. He spoke of the will of the Father. Now, again, I'm not yet in a position to populate what the will of the Father is, but I would tend to think this is a "temple text", first off. And also I have been coming to know a lot of things the Father does and is that you wouldn't realize at first glance even by following all the list of LDS commandments (although certainly you have to start there). Another idea I have with this is that within us there must be found a will that resembles or has become like the Father's. When this kind of will is in our soul (body, spirit), the types of actions or the type of life this motivates us to, is the culmination of ascension (in mortality). This conception is far beyond what we might normally conceive of as obedience (although what I consider as obedience, it still applies).

Anyway, just some thoughts.

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It is interesting that you choose Matthew 7:21 as your scripture for this thought, since no where does it say commandments in that verse.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

(Does anyone have any insights as to what the Greek will say here, especially at "will of my Father"?)

Reading this plainly without any other doctrinal (LDS) filter, this is actually a fascinating set of information from Jesus about how to be. He has set up "the will of the Father" as potentially opposing or at least distinct from, not only commandments, but actually works of service, which is confusing to even me.

So what is his point?

Let me make a few points of my own, since I'm not sure I can answer the mind of Jesus definitively yet, will need more study.

First of all, the structure of the theological argument AS ""faith v works"" is one of the falsest concept structures out there and we should not play into it. To determine the gospel or discussion of gospel in those precise terms is to not know the scripture nor to handle the scriptures on their own terms and causes unneccesary ecumenical division. And verse 21 has very little to nothing to do with ideas of faith or works, as such. This is a strong statement from me, but I can only give it as my opinion of course.

Secondly, this particular verse is located in the Sermon on the Mount. In my opinion, the Sermon on the Mount may be one of the most underappreciated and misunderstood set of passages. (Or maybe that's just me, ha ha). For example, I once thought that the Sermon on the Mount basically amounted to a collection of advice or commandments on how to act. Things Jesus wanted us to do. However, since then I have come to realize that the Sermon on the Mount is an ascension text (at least; not sure what else I'll find in there). In other words, or one consequence of this, is that one cannot read any of the verses singly and get sufficient gospel information. In the case of verse 21, I think at minimum one needs to read from verse 13 in order to start figuring out anything; and likely the Sermon can only be understood completely in its entirety (all three chapters). The Sermon on the Mount is about transformation not obedience, per se. Thus the information given has some specific order to it . . . where to begin, what stages to pass through, what some of the more difficult later stages are like to be experienced (which is where verse 21 it in, a later stage).

Thirdly, thus we can ask, what IS "the will of the Father"? How is it that casting out devils (as one example) could possibly not amount to fulfilling the will of the Father . . . what is beyond doing these types of service and spirituality? One thing you can see is that the information regarding doing the will of the Father is for those people who are already at the ability of casting out devils and prophesying . . . which is great . . . but Jesus just says, your progression isn't finished. (Corollary to this is that verse 21 probably doesn't apply to most of us here, then either, since we haven't gotten that far . . . we need to find ourselves earlier in the Sermon on the Mount.)

Fourthly, similarly, he said the will of the Father. This is not a negligible term and is the nuggest of the whole verse. Jesus did not say commandments, will of God, will of Christ, the doctrine of the Church . . . he said none of those terms. He spoke of the will of the Father. Now, again, I'm not yet in a position to populate what the will of the Father is, but I would tend to think this is a "temple text", first off. And also I have been coming to know a lot of things the Father does and is that you wouldn't realize at first glance even by following all the list of LDS commandments (although certainly you have to start there). Another idea I have with this is that within us there must be found a will that resembles or has become like the Father's. When this kind of will is in our soul (body, spirit), the types of actions or the type of life this motivates us to, is the culmination of ascension (in mortality). This conception is far beyond what we might normally conceive of as obedience (although what I consider as obedience, it still applies).

Anyway, just some thoughts.

John W. Welch has done some beautiful work on The Sermon on the Mount in Light of the Temple that I think you would be interested in. Also, supporting your last paragraph, This Conference talk might be helpful. As an aside, there are means by which one can prophesy (eg. Nostradamus) or cast out minor malign entities that can be confused with devils (eg. larvae) while invoking the name of Christ,but not necessarily being obedient to Him.

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John W. Welch has done some beautiful work on The Sermon on the Mount in Light of the Temple that I think you would be interested in. Also, supporting your last paragraph, This Conference talk might be helpful. As an aside, there are means by which one can prophesy (eg. Nostradamus) or cast out minor malign entities that can be confused with devils (eg. larvae) while invoking the name of Christ,but not necessarily being obedient to Him.

Thanks, perusing now :).

Also, you are right, I am also aware of "anti" methods of prophesying and casting out. And it may be that this is what Jesus is referring to. However, I have been concerned for myself if I take that as the meaning of what he is referring to, then I will miss something here. But maybe I'm making it too difficult.

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