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As a "critic", what is your purpose or motivation?

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Emphasis added! :rofl:

I had to rub my eyes and re-read this quotation a couple of times. Then, dumbstruck at the thought that I might have misremembered Moroni 10:4-5, I grabbed my quad and looked it up. Not satisfied to trust my eyes, I decided to cut and paste the text from the official LDS website edition of the Book of Mormon. This is what it says:

It appears that Mr. Bukowski deliberately misrepresented the Book of Mormon. I don't know how an obviously intelligent Mormon could possibly misquote Moroni 10:4-5 (one of the most often quoted texts in the Book of Mormon) and so blatantly misrepresent what it says without knowing that he was doing so.

I am also shocked that no Mormon set Mr. Bukowski straight, not even after I drew attention to the post and asked if anyone had an opinion regarding his statement.

Before you jump to Mr. Bukowski’s defense, imagine if I or any non-Mormon had misrepresented a text of the Book of Mormon in this blatant a fashion. Imagine if we had denied that Moroni 10:4-5 taught the necessity of faith in Christ. Then ask yourself how a Mormon, who obviously should know this text ten times better than a non-Mormon, can be reasonably given a pass for explicitly denying what the text says and misquoting it to support his false statement.

This is all just silly. In fact it is laughable because of the irony here.

The reality is that I was in a hurry, as usual, so I googled Moroni 10: 4-5 and grabbed the first quote which came up which was THIS ONE, WITHOUT READING IT. I just cut and pasted and went on with the post!!!

I can't believe how hilarious this is!!

In fact, I had gone to "bibleanswer dot com" without realizing it , WHO WERE THE ACTUAL ANTI-MORMONS WHO "BLATANTLY" DISTORTED THE QUOTE!!!

Gosh- what if a non-Mormon distorted it like that??? That's EXACTLY what happened!

But I stand by the post completely, other that that obvious gaff.

There is a distinction between faith and belief. One must exercise faith to even HAVE belief.

Alma 32:

Emphasis added

26Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

Note, it is expressed repeatedly NOT that one have "BELIEF" but that one have "FAITH", even just a "particle" of faith.

Faith preceeds the miracle of belief.

Moroni 10:4-5

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Note that the word in the phrase which was left out is "Faith"- not "Belief"

In fact, as I mentioned, the reason I know this principle is true is that I have experienced it myself. A friend of mine exposed me to the Book of Mormon, and I was totally surprised by the Moroni Promise.

I believed nothing at the time- not in Jesus Christ- just a vague inkling that perhaps there was some sort of God- a vague sense of "someone" who was able to communicate with my mind spiritually.

I exercised that "particle" of faith myself- with no "belief" whatsoever as an experiment- although I hadn't even read Alma yet.

I was filled with a powerful powerful sense of warmth which washed through my being from head to toe- a tangible powerful experience I can never deny a feeling of peace, love, a feeling of direct communication with a Being who was so far above me that he was totally incomprehensible. With all that went before and after that experience, it was clear that I was being directly led to the church.

From that experience, I knew the BOM was "true" although I was not yet sure what that meant, having had too much training in philosophy for it to make sense to me yet.

If the BOM was true, Joseph must have been a prophet. If he was a prophet, what he taught of Christ must be "true" also- even though I thought at the time it was historic jibberish re-copied by churchmen with ulterior motives- myths and stories thousands of years old with no relevance to today.

But God had just told me - unmistakably- that it was somehow "true". Since then my testimony has grown immeasurably, though if you asked me at the time, I would not have thought that possible, since I already knew it was all from God.

I have far, far, to go, but I know I am on the right road.

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So much for waiting for a "gotcha" moment instead of a forthright discussion- hiding in the bushes, waiting for an ambush, "lying in wait to deceive".

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Emphasis added! :rofl:

This is all just silly. In fact it is laughable because of the irony here.

The reality is that I was in a hurry, as usual, so I googled Moroni 10: 4-5 and grabbed the first quote which came up which was THIS ONE, WITHOUT READING IT. I just cut and pasted and went on with the post!!!

I can't believe how hilarious this is!!

In fact, I had gone to "bibleanswer dot com" without realizing it , WHO WERE THE ACTUAL ANTI-MORMONS WHO "BLATANTLY" DISTORTED THE QUOTE!!!

Gosh- what if a non-Mormon distorted it like that??? That's EXACTLY what happened!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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To all LDS participating in this thread: A week or so ago, I posted a question here asking if you all agree with Mr. Bukowski's claims in a particular post. Only Vance replied; he said he did agree with him, but apparently Vance did not notice the problem. So I will now point out the problem. Here is what Mr. Bukowski said:

I had to rub my eyes and re-read this quotation a couple of times. Then, dumbstruck at the thought that I might have misremembered Moroni 10:4-5, I grabbed my quad and looked it up. Not satisfied to trust my eyes, I decided to cut and paste the text from the official LDS website edition of the Book of Mormon. This is what it says:

It appears that Mr. Bukowski deliberately misrepresented the Book of Mormon. I don't know how an obviously intelligent Mormon could possibly misquote Moroni 10:4-5 (one of the most often quoted texts in the Book of Mormon) and so blatantly misrepresent what it says without knowing that he was doing so.

I am also shocked that no Mormon set Mr. Bukowski straight, not even after I drew attention to the post and asked if anyone had an opinion regarding his statement.

Before you jump to Mr. Bukowski’s defense, imagine if I or any non-Mormon had misrepresented a text of the Book of Mormon in this blatant a fashion. Imagine if we had denied that Moroni 10:4-5 taught the necessity of faith in Christ. Then ask yourself how a Mormon, who obviously should know this text ten times better than a non-Mormon, can be reasonably given a pass for explicitly denying what the text says and misquoting it to support his false statement.

I would jump to his defense even if he was wrong, but as he stated - he didn't "deliberately misrepresent" what you are claiming. It is obvious where he stands and where anti-Mormons stand.

Rob, it is your right, but it is very sad that you are now trying to find discord among our members. These are the same tactics of anti-Mormons that we are intimately familiar with. Sorry to break the news, but no one will feel that "Evangelical love" in the hopes of correcting us in our "evil beliefs".

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I know that few of you will acknowledge the effort as sincere, but for those who want to know, the statement I proposed making with regard to the temple ceremony is now on the appropriate webpage of our site. Forum rules, of course, prohibit me from providing a link.

I feel that you are sincere. Since you hold our temple rituals to be false you naturally will be willing to post information about them. That is how things stand, I guess. At least you were willing to put up the disclaimer, which is as much as we could reasonably expect.

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I know that few of you will acknowledge the effort as sincere, but for those who want to know, the statement I proposed making with regard to the temple ceremony is now on the appropriate webpage of our site. Forum rules, of course, prohibit me from providing a link.

Thank goodness you left the option on your website to purchase the entire Temple ceremony for $6.00 plus P&H.

I am sure the money is going towards building more Temples. rolleyes.gif

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BOMT,

IRR doesn't sell the book in question. However, I don't like that little ad at the bottom of the page in question. I am going to ask to have it removed. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Thank goodness you left the option on your website to purchase the entire Temple ceremony for $6.00 plus P&H.

I am sure the money is going towards building more Temples. rolleyes.gif

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volgadon,

Thanks; I appreciate your sticking your neck out even that far! Others here are not so understanding.

I feel that you are sincere. Since you hold our temple rituals to be false you naturally will be willing to post information about them. That is how things stand, I guess. At least you were willing to put up the disclaimer, which is as much as we could reasonably expect.

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I feel that you are sincere. Since you hold our temple rituals to be false you naturally will be willing to post information about them. That is how things stand, I guess. At least you were willing to put up the disclaimer, which is as much as we could reasonably expect.

I don't have a problem believing Mr. Bowman is sincere. I also understand why if someone believes something is false, one feels it is appropriate to challenge and expose that falseness in a public setting especially if it involved life-altering decisions and double for that when it involves one's eternal state (for example, I understand and find the position of the father of a young woman who married my nephew consistent and even appropriate knowing his beliefs when he stated he'd rather have had my nephew rape his daughter than baptize her since the first only had effect in this lifetime and the second would condemn her to hell for eternity in his view).

However that seems to be a rather shallow or simplistic approach when dealing with actual discussion of religious beliefs that can be quite nuanced ('if it's false, it's fair game'; the belief may be false but the reverence held for that belief quite sincere and devout), especially in the area of ritual secrecy/sacredness and honestly I am confused on how Mr. Bowman can 'get it' when discussing Native American 'ritually secret' beliefs and practices but seems unable to grasp the significance of the LDS sacred rituals so it would seem that simply "it is false so it's fair game" doesn't fit his reasoning for his choice of approach and what is and isn't appropriate to 'expose'.

I must also say though that if I was confronted with this many believers in a faith system telling me I had got something wrong in my approach, I would be reconsidering my approach in general and definitely whether or not it was appropriate for me to offer explanations of those beliefs since I think it is essential to share accurate information when discussing beliefs and positions that people often include as part of their fundamental self identity.

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BOMT,

IRR doesn't sell the book in question. However, I don't like that little ad at the bottom of the page in question. I am going to ask to have it removed. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Thank you.

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volgadon,

Thanks; I appreciate your sticking your neck out even that far! Others here are not so understanding.

As a believer in the sanctity of LDS temples, I would be thrilled were you to remove that content entirely from IRR's webpage. Realisticaly speaking though, this was a fair move on your part. I'm glad that you would go at least this far even when I'd hope for more.

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Mr. Bukowski,

You wrote:

The reality is that I was in a hurry, as usual, so I googled Moroni 10: 4-5 and grabbed the first quote which came up which was THIS ONE, WITHOUT READING IT. I just cut and pasted and went on with the post!!!

You took the time, apparently, to clean up most of the excessive capitalization in the quotation, assuming you did take it from that page. Yet you missed the fact that the verse was misquoted? A verse every Mormon I have ever met knows by heart?

When I Google Moroni 10:4-5, the first site that pops up is this one:

http://www.ldsscripturemastery.net/scriptures/moroni-10-4-5.html

You wrote:

Gosh- what if a non-Mormon distorted it like that??? That's EXACTLY what happened!

Actually, while the site does misquote Moroni 10:4-5, it does not misrepresent it as you did, by directly contradicting what it says.

You wrote:

There is a distinction between faith and belief. One must exercise faith to even HAVE belief.

The text says that one must ask "in the name of Christ" and "having faith in Christ." Sorry, but it makes no sense to say that you would ask in the name of someone about whom you believed nothing. I don't believe that for a nanosecond. You cannot sincerely ask for something in someone's name, and have faith in him, if you don't even believe he is there.

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As a believer in the sanctity of LDS temples, I would be thrilled were you to remove that content entirely from IRR's webpage. Realisticaly speaking though, this was a fair move on your part. I'm glad that you would go at least this far even when I'd hope for more.

I agree 100% However, even those ceremonies which I don't find to be sacred (can't think of any at the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if LaVey's group had some) I prefer not be revealed unless they involve murder, treason or the like.

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I agree 100% However, even those ceremonies which I don't find to be sacred (can't think of any at the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if LaVey's group had some) I prefer not be revealed unless they involve murder, treason or the like.

I agree with you. For example, I grew up around many Druse. I don't know if their sacred ceremonies and teachings have bveen made available online, because I certainly won't search for them.

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The text says that one must ask "in the name of Christ" and "having faith in Christ." Sorry, but it makes no sense to say that you would ask in the name of someone about whom you believed nothing. I don't believe that for a nanosecond. You cannot sincerely ask for something in someone's name, and have faith in him, if you don't even believe he is there.

That is the beauty of the Lord's representatives' message.

If an investigator didn't have a belief in the Lord, we would show them how to believe. It was to read the Book of Mormon (for no other book brings a person closer to the Lord) and follow Moroni's promise with prayer (we taught them how to pray) and then they received a witness and belief in the Lord.

Then receiving a witness of the Book of Mormon was easy as cake.

I challenge you Rob, to follow Moroni's test. And no, a pre-emptive rejection doesn't count.

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BOMT,

I challenge you to read Moroni 10:4-5 again, this time paying attention to what it actually says. It does not say to read the Book of Mormon and pray and that God will reveal Jesus to you and you will know that Jesus is the Christ. No, you are told expressly to pray, asking in the name of Christ (which assumes you already believe in him), sincerely (not as an experiment), already "having faith in Christ," and what will be revealed to you is that the Book of Mormon is true. The Moroni promise is all about knowing that the Book of Mormon is true, not about knowing that Jesus is the Savior.

The Book of Mormon was written for people who are already Christians. That is the plain meaning of the text.

That is the beauty of the Lord's representatives' message.

If an investigator didn't have a belief in the Lord, we would show them how to believe. It was to read the Book of Mormon (for no other book brings a person closer to the Lord) and follow Moroni's promise with prayer (we taught them how to pray) and then they received a witness and belief in the Lord.

Then receiving a witness of the Book of Mormon was easy as cake.

I challenge you Rob, to follow Moroni's test. And no, a pre-emptive rejection doesn't count.

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Bowman

Describe to me how an "altar call" works if one doesn't already believe in Christ. It can't if you are right.

THAT was the original question which you avoided and still are.

I am telling you what happened to me- if you don't believe it, I really don't care.

You are projecting your motives on me

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The Book of Mormon was written for people who are already Christians. That is the plain meaning of the text.

Thank you for your lesson on Mormon doctrine.

I am sure you will be a prophet soon!

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BOMT,

I challenge you to read Moroni 10:4-5 again, this time paying attention to what it actually says. It does not say to read the Book of Mormon and pray and that God will reveal Jesus to you and you will know that Jesus is the Christ. No, you are told expressly to pray, asking in the name of Christ (which assumes you already believe in him), sincerely (not as an experiment), already "having faith in Christ," and what will be revealed to you is that the Book of Mormon is true. The Moroni promise is all about knowing that the Book of Mormon is true, not about knowing that Jesus is the Savior.

The Book of Mormon was written for people who are already Christians. That is the plain meaning of the text.

You can't offer a challenge with a challenge. acute.gif

Besides, you can't speak for our doctrines and your wrong interpretations of the Bible doesn't magically make your interpretations of the Book of Mormon correct. You also wouldn't appreciate someone else speaking for your beliefs either. We as members are the experts, not critics - I hope you can keep that role clear.

In verse 5 (Moroni speaking and part of his promise).

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things". Moroni 10:5

This means you can follow Moroni's promise for important truths including receiving the witness that the Lord is the Savior.

Please read Title Page for the Book of Mormon was written for both Jew and Gentile, not just Christians. Sorry you are wrong on this account too. The Introduction explains that just by reading the Book of Mormon and receiving a witness that it is true, they (those who followed Moroni's promise) will also receive a witness that the Lord is the Savior.

A beautiful Divine circle in complete harmony. Wonderful isn't it?

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Please read Title Page for the Book of Mormon was written for both Jew and Gentile, not just Christians. Sorry you are wrong on this account too. The Introduction explains that just by reading the Book of Mormon and receiving a witness that it is true, they (those who followed Moroni's promise) will also receive a witness that the Lord is the Savior.

A beautiful Divine circle in complete harmony. Wonderful isn't it?

Good point!

From the Introduction:

We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10:3–5.)

Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah.

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All,

I had written:

IRR doesn't sell the book in question. However, I don't like that little ad at the bottom of the page in question. I am going to ask to have it removed. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

This has been done.

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All,

I had written:

This has been done.

Rob,

You are alright.

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All,

I had written:

This has been done.

Thank You- a step in the right direction!

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Concerning the Mormon temple and the discussions so far, I would acknowledge that the ordinances performed there are considered to be “sacred” in the teaching of the Church. These things in specifics are not discussed in a public setting although they are discussed somewhat in general.

In contrast with what we consider to be sacred in a doctrinal context, we have no obligation to refrain from speaking about as they are a part of the message to be preached inherent within Christianity. My response here will be in light of the thread question.

I do not intend to get Mormons to talk about what they’re under “covenant” to not talk about any further than what Church leadership itself does in a public setting or those here talk about in the various threads I’ve read.

Joseph Smith had claimed that he was restoring lost truth, temple odinances being one of these truths. Elder Boyd K. Packer, in a Church video, stated the following (I believe he validates a point of mine- you can’t restore what was never an apostolic practice):

If you understand why we build Temples you must understand first that we believe in revelation, and in the restoration of the Gospel, and to restore means to bring back something that was lost. Not a new invention but a restoration of that which is/was known anciently.

During an interview (in the “God Makers” video) Dr. Harold Goodman, who was President of the Mormon Mission in England, stated:

As one of our great prophets and President of the Church has indicated, As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.” So you can see why the Temple is so important to the LDS (man): because if he is worthy to go to the Temple and there receive the sacred ordinances and covenants and keep them, he can eventually grow into becoming a god himself.

I would include here the statement that Rob Bowman had added to the IRR website in response to those here who had challenged him as the director of the organization known as IRR. In my talking to Mormons about the temple it is how I’ve almost always talked with them about the subject:

A note to the reader: Practicing members of the LDS Church regard the temple ceremonies, including the text of the endowment ceremony, as sacred and not to be divulged to the world or discussed with others. They take an oath not to make this information public. Former temple-going members who have left the LDS Church, on the other hand, often view their oath as invalid or non-binding. Although we do not regard the LDS temple ceremonies as sacred and do not agree with the idea of keeping sacred things secret, we understand and acknowledge that some Mormons may be offended by the publication of details concerning LDS temple ceremonies. It is definitely not our intention to mock Mormons or their practices; our intention is simply to make information available to those who are looking for it. We encourage readers to be circumspect about bringing up these things when engaged in discussion with practicing Mormons.

Although I don’t have any qualms about discussing these things as not Biblically justified, heretical teaching, I don’t want to ignore a Mormon’s sensitivity in violating their oath and in which I also don’t expect them to talk about what they don’t want to.

For example, in a letter in dialogue with a Mormon missionary concerning the Redlands temple open house I had attended (back in 2003), I had expressed the following in a letter in response to his letter to me after a conversation we had at my home:

(coolrok7) I believe your visiting me, as a representative of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, came about as the result of my signing a referral card while visiting the Church’s open house at the Redlands temple. I filled out the card at the request of Elder ***, the missionary I was talking with. I provided the following for your consideration (The topic Elder *** and myself were discussing was the need for a temple).

The premise of your Church is that there was a restoration of true Christianity as it was anciently which includes temple worship and certain ordinances. My perspective from a historical basis is that early Christianity never did any of the things that are practiced today in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Perhaps you can provide some historical references to demonstrate that these ordinances were apostolic in authority. I’ll be looking forward to hearing from you.

. . .You said in your letter that you would not feel comfortable in talking about the Temple with me. I would never/did not expect you to openly discuss that which you’ve taken a covenant to not talk about, things you consider to be sacred. I would assure you that if I were knowingly disrespectful to you and your feelings, then you would no longer be under any further obligation to continue in having this conversation with me (letter to Elder ******)

(Elder ****** to coolrok7). . .You also mention the temple and the cerimonies therein. I do not feel comfortable talking about the Temple with you. I can direct you to some books published by members of the Church who have tried to tackle those issues. I feel that if we start basic then doctrines such as eternal progression, work for the dead, Temples, would eventually fall into place. . . .

He was on a split at the time (he was not from the immediate area) and had come by to talk. He never responded to my letter in response to his, delivered to him by another missionary as they knew each other (from different areas of the Anaheim mission) I had been talking with.

References are made publically about their temples without the specifics of the actual dialogue that ensues in the taking out of their endowments, temple marriage, and baptisms for the dead.

From LDS.org- THE HOLY TEMPLE:

There are many reasons one should want to come to the temple. Even its external appearance seems to hint of its deeply spiritual purposes. This is much more evident within its walls. Over the door to the temple appears the tribute "Holiness to the Lord."

When you enter any dedicated temple, you are in the house of the Lord. In the temples, members of the Church who make themselves eligible can participate in the most exalted of the redeeming ordinances that have been revealed to mankind. There, in a sacred ceremony, an individual may be washed and anointed and instructed and endowed and sealed. And when we have received these blessings for ourselves, we may officiate for those who have died without having had the same opportunity. In the temples sacred ordinances are performed for the living and for the dead alike.

These Things Are Sacred

A careful reading of the scriptures reveals that the Lord did not tell all things to all people. There were some qualifications set that were prerequisite to receiving sacred information. Temple ceremonies fall within this category.

We do not discuss the temple ordinances outside the temples. It was never intended that knowledge of these temple ceremonies would be limited to a select few who would be obliged to ensure that others never learn of them. It is quite the opposite, in fact. With great effort we urge every soul to qualify and prepare for the temple experience. Those who have been to the temple have been taught an ideal: Someday every living soul and every soul who has ever lived shall have the opportunity to hear the gospel and to accept or reject what the temple offers. If this opportunity is rejected, the rejection must be on the part of the individual himself.

The ordinances and ceremonies of the temple are simple. They are beautiful. They are sacred. They are kept confidential lest they be given to those who are unprepared. Curiosity is not a preparation. Deep interest itself is not a preparation. Preparation for the ordinances includes preliminary steps: faith, repentance, baptism, confirmation, worthiness, a maturity and dignity worthy of one who comes invited as a guest into the house of the Lord.

All who are worthy and qualify in every way may enter the temple, there to be introduced to the sacred rites and ordinances. . . .

Taught from on High

. . . "The temple ordinances encompass the whole plan of salvation, as taught from time to time by the leaders of the Church, and elucidate matters difficult of understanding. There is no warping or twisting in fitting the temple teachings into the great scheme of salvation. The philosophical completeness of the endowment is one of the great arguments for the veracity of the temple ordinances. Moreover, this completeness of survey and expounding of the Gospel plan, makes temple worship one of the most effective methods in refreshing the memory concerning the whole structure of the Gospel" (Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, April 1921, 58).

Upon entering the temple you exchange your street clothing for the white clothing of the temple. This change of clothing takes place in the locker room, where each individual is provided with a locker and dressing space that is completely private. In the temple the ideal of modesty is carefully maintained. As you put your clothing in the locker, you leave your cares and concerns and distractions there with them. You step out of this private little dressing area dressed in white and you feel a oneness and a sense of equality, for all around you are similarly dressed. . . . (Elder Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles)

I had had a thread closed (I forget the exact context of what I had stated as it was awhile ago, maybe a year or two) because I had made reference to the color of something worn along with the white clothing during the endowment. The immediate above is a brief explanation of what is worn in Mormon temples.

It didn’t seem to me at the time that I had violated the rules of the board in what they themselves (the Mormon Church) provide in the way of information that the public has access to. It was not really much different that I recall than what is mentioned above and was already being discussed in the threads I’ve read concerning the temple.

Both the dialogue and the teaching of the temple have appeared in publications, in reenactments by those who have had access to them which of course understandably upsets those who still are Mormon in their faith.

Relatively recently the temple ceremony in part was reenacted on a television show (Big Love), also understandably highly offensive to Mormons. During the part of the reenactment the additional colored piece of cloth in addition to the white clothing was observed being worn by those participating as actors in the show.

It appears to be very close to what I’ve read and heard discussed, seen in pictures by those who have been through it themselves (as workers as well as their first time through).

I would also mention here that back in 1990 parts of the Mormon temple ceremony were removed during the weekend of Conference after it had been a part of things portrayed in the temple for many years.

One of the things removed was the portrayal of certain people in a way that those who found out about it found it highly objectionable (which is still a teaching of the Church external of the temple but in essence still the same) because it was being done under the guise of being “sacred” and is a misrepresenting of what those not Mormon believe in a Biblical context.

A number of years ago I had heard over the radio here in southern California a recording of a particular actual dialogue in a movie clip from a session in the L.A. temple. It was I think part of the dialogue that ended up eventually being removed.

In the book by LeGrand Richards, “A Marvelous Work and a Wonder” (aimed at proselytizing non Mormons) on p. 14 under the heading of, “The Strange Gods of Christendom”, p.13. there appears to be some of the same dialogue that is or was used in the temple.

While we would acknowledge Mormons have a right to believe their teaching concerning the temple, even holding it as sacred, we consider it to be heretical in that it is in conflict with the basics of how the gift of salvation, “eternal life”, is obtained, Biblically speaking that is. What goes on in the temple are known by those still practicing Mormons with temple recommends along with those who used to be temple Mormons and no longer consider themselves to be Mormon.

They will discuss it and their experiences now as they no longer believe that Mormonism is Christian and therefore are no longer obligated as it is not their faith anymore.

While they did take an oath not to talk about them as a Mormon the reason they did then was because they believed it. They since realize it was not a good thing to make an oath about something they believe now is false teaching (their perspective now).

As a result, they are now in obedience to the following Biblical admonition of the apostle Paul:

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. (Ephesians 5:6-17)

In writing to the Galatians, Paul expresses his concerns about “another gospel” being preached (note the possible sources):

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-eight)

We as not being Mormon would view their belief in Joseph Smith as a “Prophet of God” and what followed after as being blinded by the “angel of light” as that is what happened to him (our prespective based on what we Biblically know to be true):

In September, 1823, and at later times, Joseph Smith received visitations from Moroni, an angel of light, . . .(from the EXPLANATORY INTRODUCTION p.iii of the D&C copyright 1973 edition by HAROLD B. LEE)

What the Bible points out about this “angel of light”:

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Reflected I believe in the following statements of Mormon General authorities:

Adam fell, but he fell in the right direction. . .toward the goal. . .he fell upward. (Sterling W. Sill)

The devil told the truth. . .I do not blame Mother Eve.I would not have had her miss eating the forbidden fruit for anything in the world. . . .They must pass through the same ordeal as the Gods, that they may know good from evil. . . . (Brigham Young)

The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise. . .I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. . . .We can hardly look upon anything resulting in such benefits as being a sin. . . . (Joseph Fielding Smith)

This is also shows up in a modern Mormon Sunday school lesson entitled, “The Fall of Adam and Eve.” I’ve also been at a Mormon Church Sunday school class where the topic was discussed in the same way. The following is stated (in a Note to the teacher):

The decision of Adam and Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit was not a sin, as it is sometimes considered by other Christian Churches. It was a transgression—an act that was formally prohibited but not inherently wrong. (see Dallin Oaks, in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 98; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 73). The fall was necessary for us to progress toward exaltation. . . .

We believe the above directly correlates to Paul’s admonition/warning given here:

But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. . . .For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds (2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 13-15)

The Bible in fact teaches it was sin that brought death into the world and separation from God (the preaching of the cross deals with this separation caused by sin):

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:4-eight)

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