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#1 wjwalsh

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 12:17 PM

I am trying to refine my thoughts about Adam-God and would like to know what issues exist that I have not adequately addrssed below ~ WJW

Before leaving Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s teachings about the Father, we will discuss a controversial aspect of Mormon theology commonly known as Young?¢â?¬â?¢s Adam-God doctrine.   This teaching is simply that ?¢â?¬??Adam?¢â?¬â?¢ is God the Father.  Young claimed he learned this doctrine directly from Smith.   Since there has been dispute about whether Young?¢â?¬â?¢s theology on this matter is in fact consistent with Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s own conceptions of the Father (and thus, Young misrepresented Smith), it seems appropriate to discuss some of the issues involved.

Based on some statements by Young, it appears he believed the man Adam and God the Father are the same personage.   Robinson notes this conclusion has been reached by some Mormon critics: "According to them [Mormon critics] Brigham Young taught that Adam, the husband of Eve and father of Cain, is identical to that Elohim who is God, the Father of spirits and the Father of Jesus Christ."

In Robinson?¢â?¬â?¢s mind, this teaching is an aberration within Mormon thought:
The reported statements conflict with LDS teachings before and after Brigham Young, as well as with statements of President Young himself during the same period of time.

Some of the statements by Young which seem to contradict his Adam-God citations tell us several important things about Young?¢â?¬â?¢s views of Adam. First, God created Adam.  Second, since Adam did not understand the works of God and received revelation from him, then God has superior knowledge to Adam.  Finally, Adam is the son of God.  Therefore, from this second set of citations, it should be obvious Young believed Adam and the Father are not only distinct personages, but Adam also has a lower station than his Father in Heaven.  We will now attempt to resolve these apparent contradictions.

Contemporary Mormon thinkers have traditionally avoided discussion of this issue because of its apparent conflict with normative Mormon teaching and the supposed lack of historical articulation and evidence on the doctrine.   I believe this perspective is at least partially wrong.  Young does not contradict himself or Smith, as I hope to now show.

I would like to begin this analysis by noting Young, a contemporary and close friend of Smith, professed Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s holy calling: ?¢â?¬??I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, and that he had many revelations.?¢â?¬?   Young said his only discontent with Smith was on some minor issues regarding financial management of the Church and he specifically said he never felt discontented with Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s theology or divine revelations.   Young was noted for his high regard for Smith personally and for his devotion to Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s theology.  

Since Smith was the direct source of Young?¢â?¬â?¢s doctrinal knowledge and was Young?¢â?¬â?¢s intimate associate, Young was in a much better position to understand Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s theology than contemporary thinkers.  After all, contemporary thinkers are left in the position of drawing conclusions from incomplete textual material, while Young received personal theological tutoring from Smith.  It may be true, as Robinson suggests, we do not have enough evidence to articulate the fullness of Young?¢â?¬â?¢s theology (or Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s for that matter), but for a contemporary thinker to assume he can understand Smith better than Young is an error of arrogance.  Even the most careful examination of extant records cannot replace the person-to-person theological discussions Young enjoyed with Smith over a several year period.  Morton Smith suggested, "Important indirect evidence of what a man did and taught is what his followers believed and expected.  We anticipate some distortion and innovation, but the proposition that a man?¢â?¬â?¢s devoted followers radically misrepresented his teachings is a priori improbable."  

Given Young?¢â?¬â?¢s strong theological endorsement of Smith, the absence of any displeasure by Smith of Young, and the lack of any evidence in the historical record to indicate Young tried to introduce innovative theology which was not consistent with what he learned directly from Smith, and Young?¢â?¬â?¢s insistence that he learned the doctrine from Smith, it seems improbable Young?¢â?¬â?¢s Adam-God theology is not based in Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s theology.  

I now want to call attention to how similar the terminological problems regarding Young?¢â?¬â?¢s conceptions of Adam-God are to the inconsistent terminology used by Smith (see chapter 3).  In both cases, Smith and Young used inconsistent terminology, which is an example of the second point of distinction between mantic and sophic thought (see chapter 1).    On the one hand, both men usually spoke in language consistent with Nicaean understanding.  On the other hand, both Smith and Young occasionally used language that drew (and still draw) charges of heresy from Nicaeans (and even some Mormons. )  

Interestingly, in the case of both Smith and Young, the terminological issues center on the nature and identity of God.  The similarities between the respective terminological difficulties are too similar to simply dismiss as coincidental. In fact, the key to understanding Young is to use the understanding that arose from our earlier examination of Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s theology on the nature of God.  By understanding Young in this manner, we will enhance our knowledge of Smith as well, especially in areas where the extant record is not explicit.  

For historical context, it must be remembered Smith taught in an era of extreme persecution for the Mormon people.  On the other hand, most of Young?¢â?¬â?¢s teachings were made during the Utah theocratic period when the Mormons had temporarily escaped Nicaean persecution.   Thus, Young was freer to publicly express more controversial doctrines than Smith had been.  As an example, Smith did not publicly espouse polygamy and only taught the doctrine privately.   However, Young openly taught the practice once the Mormons were safe in Utah.  For many years, the RLDS and others insisted that plural marriage was a Young innovation (just as some believe Adam-God was a Young innovation)?¢â?¬â?though today such thinking has largely been abandoned in light of massive amounts of historical evidence proving Smith originated the plural marriage doctrine and practiced it himself.

Thus, we see at least one major doctrine of Smith was secretly taught during his own lifetime and only publicly taught by his followers after his death.  While this does not prove Smith taught Adam-God, it shows precedence that such a thing might have happened.  However, my chief argument for associating Adam-God with Smith is theological analysis.

I believe Young adopted the ancient Near Eastern understanding of God (in terms of elohim | ntr; see chapter 3) based mainly upon personal theological instruction he received from Smith.  As part of his understanding of the nature of God, Young taught a mantic understanding of Adam and Eve.

Eliade claimed sacred narratives are ?¢â?¬??true stories?¢â?¬? about things ?¢â?¬??which really happened.?¢â?¬?  Further, Eliade notes ethnologists, sociologists, and historians of religion view sacred narratives in ?¢â?¬??the sense of ?¢â?¬??sacred tradition, primordial revelation, exemplary model.?¢â?¬â?¢?¢â?¬?   If a person interprets Young?¢â?¬â?¢s Adam-God comments as a true exemplary model, as opposed to an articulation of literal history, then these comments make more sense, and are consistent with Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s wide-spread usage of sacred narrative in his teachings.

Young believed Adam and Eve were not strictly actual persons but name-titles (or exemplary models) of the divine race (elohim | ntr).  A name-title is a way of designating a person based upon his or her function. For example, terms like Father, Mother, Son, Daughter are name-titles referring to a specific individual within a certain context, but can also refer to a separate and distinct individual in another context. My Mother is 'Mother' to me, but 'Daughter' to her 'Mother.'  In effect, a name-title describes both a person and a function.  

Barker suggests in ancient texts it was not always easy to tell whether a divine name is being used to describe a specific divine personage or a function in a specific text.   The ancients were much less concerned about identifying a specific personage than modern man seems to be.  Collins notes angels had multiple names in the Dead Sea Scrolls.   In ancient Jewish sacred narrative, multiple Great Angels bore the name ?¢â?¬??the Lord God of Israel,?¢â?¬â?¢ and none of them obviously was the Supreme Being whom they served.   The supra-angel Metatron also goes by the names ?¢â?¬??God of the heavens, and God of the earth, God of gods, God of the sea, and God of the dry land.?¢â?¬?   Some ancient Jewish sacred narrative also suggests repentant humans are superior to the angels.   If so, repentant humans are superior to those angels designated as God, which correlates with Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s deification theology.

Barker suggests even the name-title Yahweh was probably used as a function.    Interestingly, there are Jewish traditions which suggest Yahweh, who appeared to Moses at Mt. Sinai, was not the Supreme Being, but a servant acting via divine investiture of authority.  This concept ties back to Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s view of our ?¢â?¬??God?¢â?¬â?¢ as an appointed vice-regent (see chapter 3).  As long as we understood our ?¢â?¬??God?¢â?¬â?¢ was the appointed ?¢â?¬??God?¢â?¬â?¢ for us, then Smith believed no additional specificity was required.  Earlier we cited this statement from Young, but will do so again because of its importance here: "?¢â?¬?¦it is no matter whether we are to consider Him [Adam] our God, or whether His Father, or His Grandfather, for in either case we are of one species?¢â?¬â?of one family?¢â?¬â?and Jesus Christ is also of our species."

Thus, it makes no difference whether the Supreme Being addresses us, or one of his servants, who we mistakenly believe is the Supreme Being, because of divine investiture of authority.  While this usage caused some confusion among sophic rationalists, the mantics who accepted this concept had obviously little issue with it.

This is a reflection of modern man?¢â?¬â?¢s sophic tendency to categorize.  On the other hand, Smith, having an ancient mantic mindset was not as concerned about this kind of specificity.  Because sophic specificity and consistency was not always helpful or important, Smith did not always give enough information to determine identity.  For example, Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s usage of divine names in the Mormon temple is inconsistent with OT usage and he never explicitly taught which name is supposed to represent which personage.  It is likely this lack of explicitness is because the divine names do not refer to specific personages at all, but to roles performed within the sacred narrative that might be performed by a number of different people acting via divine investiture of authority as well.  

Thus, Adam-God is simply the use of Adam and Eve as name-titles by Young (and Smith).  Similarly, Barker notes in some Jewish sacred narrative with ancestry back to antiquity, God is the ?¢â?¬??primordial Man?¢â?¬? whose name was the same as Adam.   Likewise, DeConick says some ancient texts refer to the Father as the Heavenly Adam or Spiritual Adam.   These concepts correlate with the ancient narrative identifying the Garden of Eden with the holy of holies in the celestial temple.   To summarize, some ancient sacred Jewish narrative equates the Father with Adam; and the most sacred place in the celestial kingdom (i.e., God?¢â?¬â?¢s dwelling) with Garden of Eden (i.e., Adam?¢â?¬â?¢s dwelling).  This is not to say that Young taught exactly what is contained in this ancient sacred narrative, but it does show some very strong parallels between Young?¢â?¬â?¢s (and Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s) usage of Adam and Eve and what is contained in the ancient sacred narrative.  

By suggesting Adam and Eve were not strictly actual persons in Young?¢â?¬â?¢s (and Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s) view, I am not saying they believed Adam and Eve were not real historical figures?¢â?¬â?in the sense there was a first human male and a first human female from whom the human family is descended (though it is possible that multiple Adams and Eves were placed on the earth simultaneously, which would match some ancient Jewish sacred narrative). Instead, I am suggesting the story of Adam and Eve, as portrayed in the Mormon temple story and scriptures, as transmitted by Smith, is largely an allegorical one.   While the Adam and Eve narrative is indeed the story of the first human beings of this world, it is also the story of every human being in this world.  Thus, in this context, every human male in the world is the Adam of the allegory, while every human female is Eve.  This aspect of an exemplary Adam is discussed more fully in chapter 8.  
As importantly, the Father is also Adam?¢â?¬â?since the Father is an exalted member of the human species.  As we discussed in chapter 3, Smith taught the Father has provided a way for human beings to be exalted into godhood based on the same laws and principles in which God the Father and all of his progenitors ascended into this privilege.  Thus, as the Adam narrative is the story of every human male, it is the story of the Father, since the Father was once a human male who has been exalted into godhood.  As every human male is Adam, and the Father is an exalted human male, the Father is Adam.

Arthur Darby Nock suggested ancient rites often invited the initiates to participate in the joys and sorrows of their God.   There is a correlation between this ancient way of using the metaphors of sacred narrative and the way Young discusses Adam as God.  When participants assume the role of Adam and Eve in the Mormon temple rituals, they are partaking in the joys and sorrows of their God, who was the original Adam, or ?¢â?¬??first father,?¢â?¬?  as Smith interprets the name.  Likewise, Smith interpreted Eve as the ?¢â?¬??mother of all living?¢â?¬?¦ first of all women?¢â?¬?¦?¢â?¬?   As our Father in Heaven would have the right to use the title ?¢â?¬??first father,?¢â?¬â?¢ it certainly seems appropriate our Mother would have the right to use the title ?¢â?¬??first of all women,?¢â?¬â?¢ as much as any human female.

When Young discusses Adam as God the Father, he is simply reminding his listeners that the story of Adam and Eve is the story of deific ascension.  This is why it is used in the Mormon temple rites and this is why Young used it on rare occasions in his sermons.  

One possible critique of my view is Young also called the Father by the name Michael, in addition to Adam.   Yet, this presents no additional complexity.  As suggested above, in ancient Jewish sacred narrative, it was understood all names were not unique, but divine investitures of authority.  Smith wrote, "And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days?¢â?¬?¦"

In this text, we learn Smith believed some personage (or role) deserved the name-titles Michael, Adam, Father of All, the Prince of All, and the Ancient of Days.  Certainly, in Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s theology, our God qualifies for all these name-titles.  And if it is acceptable for several of the Great Angels to be called ?¢â?¬??The Lord God of Israel,?¢â?¬â?¢ because the Supreme Being placed one of his many names within them,  then it is certainly possible for a personage to be called by any of the above names if the Supreme Being placed that particular name within him as an endowment of partial divinity (see chapter .  

To illustrate, Deutsch (and many others) notes the title Ancient of Days as used in Daniel  is almost certainly given to God, but other documents in antiquity give the same title to lower angelic powers.   On the other hand, one text appears to attribute the title sar (?¢â?¬??Prince?¢â?¬?) to God.   This attribution is confusing to those who do not accept that perhaps the Father himself might only have been a vice-regent, but it makes perfect sense in a Mormon context.  If Michael (?¢â?¬??Prince of the Host of the Lord?¢â?¬? ) is a name of the Supreme Being, he might have chosen an angel (or even more than one) and placed that name within that servant, thus allowing him now to be called by the divine name Michael.  In Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s view, this type of naming and divine investiture would occur to allow a lesser Intelligence to grow and progress, from exaltation to exaltation, until he is ready to assume the fullness of deification.  The ambiguity in this system (e.g., how can you tell which Michael is being discussed?) is an example of the second point of distinction between mantic and sophic thought (see chapter 1).

Another possible critique of my view is that Young taught that a deified Father (Adam) and Mother (Eve) must leave the celestial kingdom enter a ?¢â?¬??decelestializing?¢â?¬?  process themselves to create spirit offspring:
After men have got their exaltations and their crowns?¢â?¬â?have become Gods, even the sons of God?¢â?¬â?are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children.

To some, this possible ?¢â?¬??decelestializing?¢â?¬â?¢ is problematic because it might imply God can step down from being God.  While that might be one way to look at it, we must remember that Young is speaking metaphorically, using the Eden sacred narrative to hint at higher mysteries; and thus, we must guard against insisting upon too much literalism.    For example, it is unlikely that the Heavenly Parents had to literally eat of some type of fruit, as Mormons generally understand the Eden narrative of eating to be allegorical even when applying to the human Adam and Eve.  The ?¢â?¬??decelestializing?¢â?¬? process may simply be a shielding of divine celestial glory, which outside of the celestial kingdom, cannot be safely be manifested to any not of the celestial glory (see chapter .

Another possible critique is Young?¢â?¬â?¢s suggestion that ?¢â?¬??Elohim, Yahova & Michael, were father, Son and grandson. They made this Earth & Michael became Adam.?¢â?¬?   This statement is problematic for some Mormons because they are used to associating divine names with specific personages.  But, as discussed above, there is no reason to assume these divine names are not simply roles fulfilled by different beings at different times, as in ancient Hebraic sacred narrative.

As a final point, in the Testament of Abraham, Adam sits on a heavenly throne with glory comparable to that of God.   In many ancient sacred narratives, the angels always stand as they even lack the joints to sit, and God is the only being that sits in heaven; thus, Adam?¢â?¬â?¢s posture means he is deified.  Young may very well have similar conceptions to this primitive tradition.  Interestingly, Alan F. Segal notes, ?¢â?¬??a principal angelic or hypostatic manifestation in heaven?¢â?¬?¦equivalent to God?¢â?¬?  (emphasis in original) was a widespread Hebraic belief dating before Jesus.   This belief  was considered a heresy by later Talmudic rabbis and that was eventually extinguished from what became rabbinic Judaism.  Since these sacred narratives have parallels with the Metatron and Akatriel traditions, and those traditions involve deification, there is obviously a very primitive tradition involving the deification of Adam that has influenced later traditions.  

To summarize, while Young?¢â?¬â?¢s Adam-God doctrine is very confusing and troubling to those of a logical and sophic perspective, it has many conceptual parallels with how divine names were used by ancient mantics.

#2 Drevan

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 12:58 PM

Yawn....this thread again....

Adam is not God the Father it's very obvious from the discourse that it was recorded wrong. Adam is Michael, Jesus is Jehovah, and Heavenly Father is Elohim. If you read President Smiths Answers to Gospel Questions he explains it. There are also 4 or 5 explainations on this board.
As a French Elder once said on a particularly difficult day tracting "Let's just kill em all, do the temple work, and let God sort em out"

#3 wjwalsh

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 01:17 PM

Drevan, on Oct 17 2004, 12:58 PM, said:

Yawn....this thread again....

Adam is not God the Father it's very obvious from the discourse that it was recorded wrong. Adam is Michael, Jesus is Jehovah, and Heavenly Father is Elohim. If you read President Smiths Answers to Gospel Questions he explains it. There are also 4 or 5 explainations on this board.
Drevan,

When Joseph Fielding Smith gave his explanation of Adam-God, all the focus was on one text; and his explanation might have seemed tenable at that time based on that one text.  However, in the decades since he gave his response, many other texts have surfaced and are available to the public.  These texts make it clear that Brigham Young did in fact declare Adam to be God.

When I was a student at BYU, two religion professors told me that Brigham Young taught Adam-God, and because he did, Brigham Young was a false prophet and the Church espoused false doctrine as central theology for almost 50 years.  I have never really been comfortable with their explanation and have sought to understand Adam-God in a way that leaves the prophethood of Brigham Young intact.

WJW

#4 calmoriah

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 01:29 PM

Do you see a significant problem with accepting the teaching as Adam as God a Father as opposed to God THE Father?  To me this settles the problem of such contradictions as exists even within the same sermon.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith

#5 Zeta-Flux

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 01:54 PM

wjwalsh,

I have a little free time today, so I thought I?¢â?¬â?¢d respond to your post.

You said:

Quote

Young claimed he learned this doctrine directly from Smith.

I?¢â?¬â?¢ve never seen this supposed statement.  I have seen the one where Brigham says something similar, but not in relation to the ?¢â?¬??Adam-God?¢â?¬? teaching as such.  If you could provide the statement in question I?¢â?¬â?¢d be much obliged.

Quote

In Robinson?¢â?¬â?¢s mind, this teaching is an aberration within Mormon thought:
The reported statements conflict with LDS teachings before and after Brigham Young, as well as with statements of President Young himself during the same period of time.??? 

While true, perhaps a stronger argument would be to point out that not only is it an aberration according to Robinson, but according to many apostles, and even Pres. Spencer W. Kimball.

Quote

Some of the statements by Young which seem to contradict his Adam-God citations tell us several important things about Young?¢â?¬â?¢s views of Adam. First, God created Adam. Second, since Adam did not understand the works of God and received revelation from him, then God has superior knowledge to Adam. Finally, Adam is the son of God. Therefore, from this second set of citations, it should be obvious Young believed Adam and the Father are not only distinct personages, but Adam also has a lower station than his Father in Heaven. We will now attempt to resolve these apparent contradictions.

At this point, it may be good to include the citations you are thinking about.  Firstly, so that those of us who don?¢â?¬â?¢t know which quotations you are referring to may be able to judge for ourselves if you are correct in your assessment of Brigham?¢â?¬â?¢s statements.  Secondly, so that those of us who are familiar with Brigham?¢â?¬â?¢s teachings may be able to point out other statements (if necessary) that you may have neglected.

Quote

Young said his only discontent with Smith was on some minor issues regarding financial management of the Church and he specifically said he never felt discontented with Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s theology or divine revelations.

Source?

Quote

Since Smith was the direct source of Young?¢â?¬â?¢s doctrinal knowledge and was Young?¢â?¬â?¢s intimate associate, Young was in a much better position to understand Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s theology than contemporary thinkers.

I think most believing Mormon?¢â?¬â?¢s would disagree with you on this.  Smith may have been the source of some of Brigham?¢â?¬â?¢s knowledge, but even Brigham himself would claim that much of his knowledge came from God through inspiration.  (I think your idea on this point is tied to a misunderstanding of Brigham?¢â?¬â?¢s initial quotation that you did not provide.)

Quote

?¢â?¬?¦ but for a contemporary thinker to assume he can understand Smith better than Young is an error of arrogance.

I disagree.  I think there are plenty of valid reasons for someone to believe that they might understand Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s theology better than Brigham did.  (Such as: Brigham was often on missions, and missed some of Joseph?¢â?¬â?¢s discourses; etc?¢â?¬?¦)  Of course, there are some ways in which Brigham knew Joseph better than all of us (personally, etc?¢â?¬?¦).

Quote

Morton Smith suggested, "Important indirect evidence of what a man did and taught is what his followers believed and expected. We anticipate some distortion and innovation, but the proposition that a man?¢â?¬â?¢s devoted followers radically misrepresented his teachings is a priori improbable."

While I don?¢â?¬â?¢t believe Brigham ?¢â?¬??radically misrepresented?¢â?¬? Joseph?¢â?¬â?¢s teachings, I think there are many examples from history where someone has done so.

Quote

?¢â?¬?¦ and Young?¢â?¬â?¢s insistence that he learned the doctrine from Smith, ?¢â?¬?¦

Again.  Source?

Quote

?¢â?¬?¦it seems improbable Young?¢â?¬â?¢s Adam-God theology is not based in Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s theology

The problem now, though, is for you to demonstrate whether your understanding of the Adam-God theory is better or more precise than many others?¢â?¬â?¢.

Quote

For historical context, it must be remembered Smith taught in an era of extreme persecution for the Mormon people. On the other hand, most of Young?¢â?¬â?¢s teachings were made during the Utah theocratic period when the Mormons had temporarily escaped Nicaean persecution.???  Thus, Young was freer to publicly express more controversial doctrines than Smith had been.

Smith also taught during times of peace, and much of Brigham?¢â?¬â?¢s teachings came during persecution.  You need a little more evidence to show that Brigham was more ?¢â?¬??free?¢â?¬? with his theology when they weren?¢â?¬â?¢t being persecuted.  The example of polygamy is good, but not necessarily tied to the fact that they were now free in Utah.

Quote

Young believed Adam and Eve were not strictly actual persons but name-titles (or exemplary models) of the divine race (elohim | ntr). A name-title is a way of designating a person based upon his or her function. For example, terms like Father, Mother, Son, Daughter are name-titles referring to a specific individual within a certain context, but can also refer to a separate and distinct individual in another context. My Mother is 'Mother' to me, but 'Daughter' to her 'Mother.' In effect, a name-title describes both a person and a function.

I agree with this sentiment.  But I see no evidence from you showing that this really is what Brigham believed.  [Edit: Althought you start doing so later.  You may want to point out that you will provide evidence for this point as you continue your discussion.]

Cheers,
Zeta-Flux

Edited by Zeta-Flux, 17 October 2004 - 01:58 PM.


#6 pseudogratix

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 01:57 PM

wjwalsh, on Oct 18 2004, 05:17 AM, said:

When I was a student at BYU, two religion professors told me that Brigham Young taught Adam-God, and because he did, Brigham Young was a false prophet and the Church espoused false doctrine as central theology for almost 50 years.

These BYU religion professors were LDS members at the time? It was really their position that Brigham Young was a false prophet?

#7 Jesso

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 04:10 PM

Wow, only 13 days between Adam-God Threads.  Did that Deseret News article change since then?  

#8 wjwalsh

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 05:04 PM

calmoriah, on Oct 17 2004, 01:29 PM, said:

Do you see a significant problem with accepting the teaching as Adam as God a Father as opposed to God THE Father?  To me this settles the problem of such contradictions as exists even within the same sermon.
What is the difference between God a Father and God THE Father?

WJW

#9 wjwalsh

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 05:25 PM

Zeta-Flux, on Oct 17 2004, 01:54 PM, said:

I disagree.  I think there are plenty of valid reasons for someone to believe that they might understand Smith?¢â?¬â?¢s theology better than Brigham did.  (Such as: Brigham was often on missions, and missed some of Joseph?¢â?¬â?¢s discourses; etc?¢â?¬?¦)  Of course, there are some ways in which Brigham knew Joseph better than all of us (personally, etc?¢â?¬?¦).

While I don?¢â?¬â?¢t believe Brigham ?¢â?¬??radically misrepresented?¢â?¬? Joseph?¢â?¬â?¢s teachings, I think there are many examples from history where someone has done so.

The problem now, though, is for you to demonstrate whether your understanding of the Adam-God theory is better or more precise than many others?¢â?¬â?¢.

Smith also taught during times of peace, and much of Brigham?¢â?¬â?¢s teachings came during persecution.  You need a little more evidence to show that Brigham was more ?¢â?¬??free?¢â?¬? with his theology when they weren?¢â?¬â?¢t being persecuted.  The example of polygamy is good, but not necessarily tied to the fact that they were now free in Utah.

I agree with this sentiment.  But I see no evidence from you showing that this really is what Brigham believed.  [Edit: Althought you start doing so later.  You may want to point out that you will provide evidence for this point as you continue your discussion.]
Zetaflux,

(1) Thank you for your comments.  For your points about sources, see http://home.houston....alsh/DRAFT4.pdf  pp. 149-159.  I think most of your requests for sources are already in the footnotes on those pages.  If not, then let me know.

(2)  You think most believing Mormons would believe they would be in a better position to understand Joseph Smith's theology than Brigham Young, who actually knew Joseph Smith and received theological tutoring from him?  

(3)  If Joseph Smith taught a conventional understanding of God the Father, Adam, and Eve (and Brigham Young taught Adam-God), then most people would consider that a radical misrepresentation of Joseph Smith's theology.

(4)  Yes, that is why I posted the material---now the question is:  is it better or worse and does my material have any fatal flaws?  If it does I would like to have them pointed out so I can improve my understanding and argument.

(5)  Do you have any case to make that Mormons were more secretive in Utah?

(6)  I make a proposal that I believe is consistent with Joseph Smith's theology and the evidence we have from Brigham Young.  I believe it fits.  Now is there anything that doesn't fit?

Again thanks for your comments.

WJW

#10 Drevan

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 05:43 PM

Im not gonna touch this thread again, Its been thouroughly beat to death. If you can't accept the fact you're wrong, then you have your own issues. Adam is Michael, Jesus is Jehovah, and God the Father is Elohim not to mention the Father of Michael/Adam.

I don't beleive professors would be teaching such trash as Adam God at BYU, they'd be fired.
As a French Elder once said on a particularly difficult day tracting "Let's just kill em all, do the temple work, and let God sort em out"

#11 Zeta-Flux

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 05:50 PM

wjwalsh,

(1) Your citation for the claim that Brigham claimed that Joseph taught him the Adam-God doctrine is Buerger (footnote 742).  I don't have this material.  If you could just give me the citation from Brigham (and not commentary) that would be great.

(2) Some people would, yes.  And some might have logical reasons for believing this.  And some of them might be right, on some issues, since Brigham didn't have access to some of Joseph's teachings.

(3) Well, first we need to establish clearly that Brigham did claim that it was Joseph's teaching.  Then we need to establish whether or not Brigham taught it.

(4) One flaw in your argument, in my opinion, is that while your theory about what Brigham meant may be consistent with what he said, that doesn't mean that that is what Brigham meant.  There may be other theories that are consistent with his words, or it may just be that Brigham wasn't consistent.

I personally like you take.  Others have taken that route also.  You may want to check out the FAIR Adam-God articles.

(5) No.  But I think one might be able to demonstrate that Brigham was just as "free" in his theology during persecution.  It requires more evidence either way.

(6) Maybe.  I haven't recently looked over all the Adam-God materials.  I personally like your theory.  I just would like more evidence (than consistency) to support that that is what Brigham meant.

Best,
Zeta-Flux

#12 Zeta-Flux

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 05:53 PM

P.S.  You may want to clarify some of your terminology, specifically the term "Adam-God doctrine."  You seem to equivocate a little, and define it at the beginning of the section as the teaching that "Adam, the father of Cain, is Heavenly Father" but then later try to redefine it.  You might want to refer to the earlier teaching as the "fundamentalist Adam-God teaching" and yours as something else (a synthesis perhaps).

#13 wjwalsh

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 06:01 PM

pseudogratix, on Oct 17 2004, 01:57 PM, said:

These BYU religion professors were LDS members at the time? It was really their position that Brigham Young was a false prophet?
Yes and Yes.  For me, it was a rather shocking experience, as I was a new convert and somewhat naive at the time [my mother says I still am ].  Being told that Brigham Young was a false prophet who led the Church astray was troubling to me.  Since that time, I have tried to reconcile the various Adam-God statements with what I know about Joseph Smith's theology.  

I suspect that many, many knowledgeable members of the Church, including General Authorities, hold the same position or something similar but less extreme.  For example, there is the famous Elder McConkie letter in which he says Brigham Young was a true prophet, but he had an incorrect understanding of God and taught falsely when he taught Adam-God.

I have often felt it somewhat ironic that I, a convert, am willing to declare that Brigham Young was a true prophet, while so many descendents of those who crossed the plains with him reject him.

WJW

#14 Paul Osborne

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 06:11 PM

Which prophet first put down the Adam-God teaching first, and when?

Paul O
I confess that I'm not entirely sure what to make of Joseph Smith's attempts to "translate" the facsimiles. As I indicated above, I am open to the reality that Joseph was just employing "the wisdom of man" in his "translations" of the facsimiles, and that accounts for the things he seems to get "wrong."

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#15 wjwalsh

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 06:25 PM

Zeta-Flux, on Oct 17 2004, 05:50 PM, said:

wjwalsh,

(1) Your citation for the claim that Brigham claimed that Joseph taught him the Adam-God doctrine is Buerger (footnote 742).  I don't have this material.  If you could just give me the citation from Brigham (and not commentary) that would be great.

(4) One flaw in your argument, in my opinion, is that while your theory about what Brigham meant may be consistent with what he said, that doesn't mean that that is what Brigham meant.  There may be other theories that are consistent with his words, or it may just be that Brigham wasn't consistent.
Zeta-Flux,

(1) Here is the reference from Brigham Young:  "You came out tonight & place them as charges, & have as many against me as I have you. One thing I thought I might still have omitted It was Joseph's doctrine that Adam was God when in Luke Johnson's, at O Hyde the power came upon us, or such that alarmed the neighborhood. God comes to earth & eats & partakes of fruit" (April 4, 1860, Miscellaneous Papers, Brigham Young Collection, LDS Archives.)  Buerger gives other references as well (there are at least 3 documented occasions of when BY claimed to received the Adam-God doctrine from JS), as well as second-hand testimony from leading members of the Church who were present.

(2) I present a theory.  To my knowledge, it is the most likely theory.  But if someone has a better one, I would love to hear it.  That is why I started this thread.

(3)  I think it is indisputable that BY taught Adam-God (i.e., God the Father = Adam).  I think it is indisputable that he claimed to have received the teaching from JS.  I think it unlikely (but disputable) that BY misunderstood the doctrine.  I think the most likely scenario is that we don't know what it means because we are so trapped in a Protestant-Catholic interpretation of the scriptures.  

WJW

#16 mnn727

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 08:24 PM

Brigham Young did not teach that Adam was God the Father,  You and others take a sentence here and a sentance there out of a persons career spanning decades and try to make a case out of it while ignoring everything else the same person said on the subject.

Anyone who thinks that Brigham Young taught that Adam was God the Father is showing that they have NEVER even read the 2 sermons that the Anti's get that from.

#17 gaucho

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 09:19 PM

Well, I've read enough to learn that Brigham Young did in fact believe Adam is our Heavenly Father. There are many times where he taught this. I could believe an error in transcription once or twice, but time and time again, records show he did believe this. I accept the fact that he may have been mistaken. I also accept the fact it may be true. But he had a hard time convincing the saints in his day of the doctrine and may be that he stopped teaching it because it was too sacred, or too advanced for the members at large. Joseph Smith once said that if he taught the saints everyting he knew about the Gospel, not a soul would stay with him. President Hinckley recently commented on the Adam God doctrine and said he didn't know what Brigham meant by that and he is not going to worry about it. So we shouldn't either.

Here follows Brigham Young's early "lecture at the veil," excerpted from Elder Nuttall's Journal:

In the creation the Gods entered into an agreement about forming this earth. & putting Michael or Adam upon it. these things of which I have been speaking are what are termed the mysteries of godliness but they will enable you to understand the expression of Jesus made while in Jerusalem. This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. We were once acquainited [acquainted] with the Gods & lived with them but we had the privilige of taking upon us flesh that the spirit might have a house to dwell in. we did so and forgot all and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned. We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve. how they were formed &c some think he was made like an adobie and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life. for we read "from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return" Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this earth. he was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth. Adam was an immortal being when he came. on this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. and when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in. and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this Kingdom our earth he came to it. and slept and forgot all and became like an Infant child. it is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve-this should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other Men had the seed within him to propagate his species. but not the Woman. she conceives the seed but she does not produce it. consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father. this explains the mystery of Moses's dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve. Adam & Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal beings with flesh. bones and sinews. but upon partaking of the fruits of the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal beings with the blood coursing through their veins as the action of life. Adam was not under transgression until after he partook of the forbidden fruit that was nesesary that they might be together that man might be. the woman was found in trans-gression not the Man- Now in the law of Sacrifice we have the promise of a Savior and man had the privilege and showed forth his obedience by offering of the first fruits of the earth and the firstlings of the flocks- this as a showing that Jesus would come and shed his blood
[Four lines without any writing on them.]
Father Adam's oldest son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family is Father Adams first begotten in the spirit World. who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. (In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit World. and come in the spirit [glory] to Mary and she conceived for when Adam and Eve got through with their Work in this earth. they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit World from whence they came.
I felt myself much blessed in being permitted to associate with such men and hear such instructions as they savored of life to me-

(Source: Journal of L. John Nuttall; BYU Special Collections; Pres. Brigham Young; delivered in St. George; Wed., Feb. 7, 1877. This was the first draft of the Lecture at the Veil. Brother L. John Nuttall was the private secretary to President Brigham Young until his (Brigham's) death in 1877. He then became the private secretary to President John Taylor (1879-1887) and again to President Wilford Woodruff (1887-1892):

This doctrine was believed by most Mormons at the time. However, Apostle Orson Pratt opposed it, and argued against it.

#18 calmoriah

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 10:42 PM

Adam is, as you say, a name title.  As is Eve.  Thus the title "Adam" may be referring to more than one person and the same for Eve.  Michael is the Adam of our earth, the father of our bodies, who could be considered God a Father, but still is an incomplete version, not having fulfilled all the righteousness and acts of God The Father, the Ultimate Adam.  

Elohim, our spirit father would be the ultimate Adam, God THE Father, Heavenly Father.

There are too many of BY"s sermons that treat Adam of this Earth as a separate personage from Heavenly Father.  Understanding the issue of the name-title requires us to figure out what Adam is being discussed from context rather than assuming it means the individual known as Michael.

Christ cannot be the only begotten in the flesh is Adam of this earth is Heavenly Father.

Edited by calmoriah, 17 October 2004 - 10:50 PM.

When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith

#19 wjwalsh

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Posted 18 October 2004 - 05:23 AM

calmoriah, on Oct 17 2004, 10:42 PM, said:

Elohim, our spirit father would be the ultimate Adam, God THE Father, Heavenly Father.
I guess my point is something like this: Let's step back a moment and forget which God and which Adam we are talking about and discuss process.  There is no ultimate Adam or God in my view.  Joseph taught that God the Father had a Father.  Likewise, he had a Father, who had a Father, and so forth.  Each Father had a mortal probation, each became resurrected, each was exalted into Godhood, and each started a new creation with their own spirit children.  BY taught that our original first mortal parents were as conversant with their Heavenly Grandfather as they were with their Heavenly Father.  Thus, I am not sure in what way the Father of our spirit bodies could be considered the ultimate.

WJW

#20 mnn727

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Posted 18 October 2004 - 08:23 AM

Quote

Well, I've read enough to learn that Brigham Young did in fact believe Adam is our Heavenly Father.

So, what you are saying is you;ve never actually read BY's sermons, you've just read what Anti's wrote about his sermons with selective quotes taken out of context.  I see.


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